Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 ::REVAMP::

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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby Leehar on Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:26 am

danryan wrote:Game 7857092 If you can drop this in 1 v 1 or dubs this is silly. Pearl Harbor gives you a chance to come back from unbalanced drops by being so large, but with an 18 region start it's impossible to come back when your opponent drops 12 to begin.

Lol, I was actually going to bring this up myself, so it's cool you got to it first.
The Bison King wrote:
danryan wrote:can you be specific?

Basically, it's been thrice in a row in my games on a thyseneal where someone has dropped a bonus. In a trips game, the opponent got the 3 islands bonus, in a 1v1 the opponent got a +4 bonus, while I got a +3 bonus dropped, and now in this game I dropped a +6, so basically the games are decided before even properly beginning...
I didn't have this in 2 previous tourneys I played thyseneal in, so I'm actually wondering if you've made some changes that could have created this? I know sometimes drops are a bit unequal, but if bonuses are dropped on a consistent basis than it basically sucks. I'm not sure what you can do to fix this, but hopefully it's worth looking into...
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby mattattam on Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:16 am

There are a lot of bonus in a relatively small amount of space. This map is made for a larger number of players...

One of the things that could be done to even the drop out is to put neutrals which would bring down the dropped territory count and make it less fair for players overall.
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby danryan on Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:43 am

The Bison King wrote:
danryan wrote:Game 7857092 If you can drop this in 1 v 1 or dubs this is silly. Pearl Harbor gives you a chance to come back from unbalanced drops by being so large, but with an 18 region start it's impossible to come back when your opponent drops 12 to begin.

can you be specific?


Sure. It's foggy, but judging by the drop I'm guessing he has two continents. I think Dalmus starts neutral, right? If so he can't hold the 3 Island bonus, but he does have Cratica and Tyross. Caspiar is neutral. Given that, he dropped The Desert (+3) and Lyalia (+3). Now, on classic for instance, I've seen drops where one side got Oceania or South America, and even Africa (very rarely), but never two continents. I don't know whether the answer is in coding starting neutrals and the odds are obviously slim this would ever happen but I don't care for maps where the game can be over on the drop, without rolling a single die. The Siege map is a similar size and can have this problem as well (with the throne and with the camps), but it's fairly old as far as cc maps go.
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby The Bison King on Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:57 pm

danryan wrote:
The Bison King wrote:
danryan wrote:Game 7857092 If you can drop this in 1 v 1 or dubs this is silly. Pearl Harbor gives you a chance to come back from unbalanced drops by being so large, but with an 18 region start it's impossible to come back when your opponent drops 12 to begin.

can you be specific?


Sure. It's foggy, but judging by the drop I'm guessing he has two continents. I think Dalmus starts neutral, right? If so he can't hold the 3 Island bonus, but he does have Cratica and Tyross. Caspiar is neutral. Given that, he dropped The Desert (+3) and Lyalia (+3). Now, on classic for instance, I've seen drops where one side got Oceania or South America, and even Africa (very rarely), but never two continents. I don't know whether the answer is in coding starting neutrals and the odds are obviously slim this would ever happen but I don't care for maps where the game can be over on the drop, without rolling a single die. The Siege map is a similar size and can have this problem as well (with the throne and with the camps), but it's fairly old as far as cc maps go.

From your description this sounds like a complete freak accident. The Desert and Lyalia are both over 4 regions, it's very unlikely that one would be given in the drop, but for both of them is just insane. Sometimes that just happens I guess. It's nothing wrong with the map or coding, you could probably play 100 games on the map with out that ever happening again.
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby danryan on Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:12 pm

So is a complete freak accident ok, or given what Leehar posted above, should you be revisiting the possibility of adding some neutrals? I'll be the first to admit this is is probably the first time I've seen this, but I wonder what the actual odds of a drop like that are before I'd write it off as a freak occurrence not to be worried about.
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby army of nobunaga on Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:28 pm

danryan wrote:So is a complete freak accident ok, or given what Leehar posted above, should you be revisiting the possibility of adding some neutrals? I'll be the first to admit this is is probably the first time I've seen this, but I wonder what the actual odds of a drop like that are before I'd write it off as a freak occurrence not to be worried about.



Its happened to me too. The bonus going to +2 might be the best way to solve this.
But I write off any map as a 1vs1 that starts 18 vs 18... the first person to play wins a strangely high percent of the time.
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby Leehar on Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:29 pm

Game 7792135 was the other one in which I felt the drop basically determined the game... (tho admittedly I could have played better given that I had a drop as well, but I plead the 4th)
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby The Bison King on Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:06 pm

danryan wrote:So is a complete freak accident ok, or given what Leehar posted above, should you be revisiting the possibility of adding some neutrals? I'll be the first to admit this is is probably the first time I've seen this, but I wonder what the actual odds of a drop like that are before I'd write it off as a freak occurrence not to be worried about.

A complete freak accident is a complete freak accident. Would you buy flood insurance if you lived on a mountain and your basement flooded 1 time?
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby The Bison King on Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:08 pm

Honestly I never play 1v1 because I find that the first person to take their turn always wins no matter what map you play on. Also I've never played a map where someone didn't start with a bonus at least once. The simplest solution I have would be to play games with more players. This was always intended to be a 4-8 player map anyway.

I'll consult Ender to see if any XML changes could be used to balance this out, but to me it sounds like there isn't a problem with the map but there have just been some issues between people and random chance.
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby mattattam on Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:44 pm

The Bison King wrote:Honestly I never play 1v1 because I find that the first person to take their turn always wins no matter what map you play on. Also I've never played a map where someone didn't start with a bonus at least once. The simplest solution I have would be to play games with more players. This was always intended to be a 4-8 player map anyway.

I'll consult Ender to see if any XML changes could be used to balance this out, but to me it sounds like there isn't a problem with the map but there have just been some issues between people and random chance.


A map is supposed to be as rounded as possible to fit all game types and all amounts of players. I got my ranking by playing almost all 1v1 standard games so there is more than luck 1v1 outside of freestyle.

For smaller games on this map (2-4 players) can't you write a code that would drop only 14 territories each for 2-3 player games and 11 territories each for 4 player games? This would lower the probabilities of dropping a bonus in smaller games and would truly make it a freak accident to drop huge bonus'. I know this would take more work Bison but this would make a better rounded map that more people would play and enjoy :D
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby mattattam on Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:51 pm

Proposal (discussed above)

Proposal: Make 2-3 player games starting territory positions 14 territories (currently 16 each) and 4 player games starting territories 11 each (currently 12 each)

Reason: To balance first turn advantage more evenly and decrease probability of dropping bonus'
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby army of nobunaga on Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:53 pm

mattattam wrote:Proposal (discussed above)

Proposal: Make 2-3 player games starting territory positions 14 territories (currently 16 each) and 4 player games starting territories 11 each (currently 12 each)

Reason: To balance first turn advantage more evenly and decrease probability of dropping bonus'



+1 post ...

this would fix a lot of these gripes.
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby The Bison King on Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:27 pm

mattattam wrote:Proposal (discussed above)

Proposal: Make 2-3 player games starting territory positions 14 territories (currently 16 each) and 4 player games starting territories 11 each (currently 12 each)

Reason: To balance first turn advantage more evenly and decrease probability of dropping bonus'

Can you do that? I was under the impression That you could only create 1 scenario, regarding how the initial drop is distributed.
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby The Bison King on Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:30 pm

I thinking we will have to put in some block to keep someone starting with the island bonus though.
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby mattattam on Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:56 pm

The Bison King wrote:
mattattam wrote:Proposal (discussed above)

Proposal: Make 2-3 player games starting territory positions 14 territories (currently 16 each) and 4 player games starting territories 11 each (currently 12 each)

Reason: To balance first turn advantage more evenly and decrease probability of dropping bonus'

Can you do that? I was under the impression That you could only create 1 scenario, regarding how the initial drop is distributed.



I think you can do this. Ender or someone in map-foundry will know for sure. If you can't do two scenarios it still could be changed to 14 territories overall instead of 16. This would still make a big difference with the drop.
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