Ireland map [Quenched]

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Postby AndyDufresne on Wed May 31, 2006 5:17 pm

The Ireland Map is still currently going through a final hammering out stage. And there still seems to be discussion going on, so I will not rush it. Only once there is a general Foundry consensus that the map is ready, will it be on the site for live play. Submitting it before the map has receieved the 'Foundry Brand' will only hinder it more. ;)


--Andy
Last edited by AndyDufresne on Wed May 31, 2006 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby reverend_kyle on Wed May 31, 2006 5:26 pm

i think its ready.
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Postby Jota on Wed May 31, 2006 5:43 pm

Since I was one of the ones who voiced objection, I want to make it explicit that I'd be willing to accept the map as it is. While I'd prefer to see The Pale or Ossory with one border fewer (with an appropriate recalculation of its bonus), I wouldn't hold up the final forging over it.
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Postby Machiavelli on Wed May 31, 2006 6:13 pm

**ignores every other post and just looks at the map**

I think it looks very professional and very good.


Great job.
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Postby Marvaddin on Wed May 31, 2006 6:46 pm

Yeah, I think 5 continents is good, 6 is too much. I confused myself.

The aspect of the map is great, but i think its the only really good point.
The continent bonuses, for example, are crazy: Midlands 4, and Connaught 2 for example; or Ulster 4 and Ossory 6. Totally unbalanced.

Midlands easy enough to hold? Of course it isnt. It can be attacked from 8 different locations. As the Pale, too. These continents are lost land, unless you have peacemaker neighbours.

I still believe that Midlands and Pale should be only one continent. It would be a bigger one... To add some balance, you could block routes between Cavan and Fermannagh, Wexford and Wicklow.
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Postby rocksolid on Wed May 31, 2006 7:09 pm

Hey, sorry I didn't notice this before -

Spelling on Clare (not Claire)

Spelling on Fermanagh (not Fermannagh)

(this may be intentional) L in Longford is small caps, not large caps like other initials

Also, suggestion for Midlands - name is fine, but an alternative is Mide, the old kingdom that used to be in that spot before Leinster spread to its size.

And are you sure you want to identify the water off Cork as St. George's channel? I assume it's accurate, but in the spirit of the map, you might prefer to just refer to the Irish Sea :wink: .

This map is a beaut.
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Postby qeee1 on Wed May 31, 2006 7:27 pm

... Nice, at this stage I just want to play, though those corrections Rock mentioned have to be made. Proud to have such a nice map for my country.
Frigidus wrote:but now that it's become relatively popular it's suffered the usual downturn in coolness.
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Postby kevinc on Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:25 am

Marv, I appreaciate your comments. But I'm going to go on my gut on this one though and sticking to the current setup for now.

rocksolid, cheers for spotting those typos. I'll fix them immediately.
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Postby Marvaddin on Fri Jun 02, 2006 8:50 am

Are you lazy? Shouldnt you justify your option? Jota also thinks there are many borders... I believe those continents are unplayable, and I would like to see something done, so I could enjoy the map. The bonuses should be revised, too. Both things kill the map.

Its just my opinion, dont becomes angry, but I believe this map have really really serious errors, almost as Indochina map. I insist in the matter because you worked hard, the map can be a very good one, but it will not this way, despite the great graphics. Its not the same situation as the Middle Earth map. There, I dislike some things, but I see it working, and not here.

Please, pleeeease reconsider it. If I knew it would be this way, I would not suggest 5 continents, with 4 it was better.
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Postby rocksolid on Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:41 am

The way I see it, there are two easily holdable continents (Connacht and Munster), one challenging one (Ulster) and three that are very difficult to hold (the Leinster ones). If there were only five continents, I think the two Leinster ones that would result would still be fairly difficult to hold, and would probably only get held at the end of the game when it doesn't matter, if ever - not really a big change, even if the borders were reduced by putting, say, the Wicklow mts between a combined The Pale/Mide and Ossory. I think the main rationale for decreasing the number of continents would have to be the increasing of the number of holdable continents, and therefore the number of players who can "find a home" in a game on the map, which I don't really see happening even if there are only 5 continents. While I see the problem Marv is worried about - Leinster is unholdable - reducing the number of continents won't really solve it, as I see it, though it could mitigate it a little. And I think it's reasonable to argue that by keeping the number of continents high, and thereby keeping them small, there's just as good a chance of their being held, especially if (as with Europe on the classic map) other players tend to fortify out of Leinster in despair.

So, in sum, I think it could go either way. Unless (and even if) more natural boundaries are thrown in - say, the royal canal, or the Wicklow mts - Leinster is probably doomed to be a no man's land no matter how many continents make it up. And I don't like the idea of more natural boundaries than are already here, because you can walk from one side of the island to the other unhindered (been done :wink: ), and I like maps to stay relatively diligent to geography.

So maybe it should be changed, maybe not, but I think it's hard to say ahead of time without playing it. I think Kevin will be as ready as anybody to alter the number of continents in a month or so if he doesn't like how it's playing out.
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Postby john123 on Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:20 pm

i think its ready, like the setup, makes for more thought about strategy when you have to play differently than on the other maps
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Postby Marvaddin on Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:05 am

I agree, then. Maybe 5 continents with a bigger one could not be that useful (although I still prefer a big one than 2 small and useless). So, maybe we can suggest another things, beyond of the union between Midlands and Pale. For example:

Wicklow could belong to Ossory. Its border could be extended to block Carlow. Kildare could join Dublin. Or maybe Longford could disappear.

At other hand, 3 is a great bonus to Munster anyway, so Cork could be splitted. As Galway or Mayo.

So, no need to have wasted continents. We will only have it if we choose so, and I personally wouldnt like it. Maybe we can discuss by pm, kevin, so you can present another option, and then people can choose.
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Postby kevinc on Sat Jun 03, 2006 7:41 am

Marvaddin, with all due respect, I said about 3 posts ago that I've made my decision. I've listened to your comments and taken some of them on board. I have said what's there now is final, yet you continue to post repeating the same points. I understand you disagree, but understand too that this is my map, and I've thought about it a lot more than you have, please have the courtesy to respect my decision.
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Postby Marvaddin on Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:05 pm

Well, I thought I have heard Andy saying the makers couldnt do wrong things only based in "this is my map, I do what I want". I thought they should explain their options based in logical ideas, only this. My goal was not make you (or anyone) angry, was only have a better map.

I continue believing that wasted continents are an error, as the bonuses for this map. But its your choice, I will have that courtesy. Also, its always good have some maps less played than mine :)
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Postby Haydena on Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:01 pm

Marvaddin wrote:Also, its always good have some maps less played than mine :)


Oh, I dunno Marv, that is kinda arrogant ;). I think on aesthetics alone this will be more appealing than the Brazil map, it's also not a complete Classic map clone like your map is, I remember some of your comments... "I'll study the classic map"...

I think it'll be played more than the Brazil map... It's a lot better in my opinion, your map is starting to look out of date with all these new good looking maps (Not including mine lol)
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Postby areyouincahoots on Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:07 pm

It's pretty much my favorite map to look at....can't wait til I get to play it
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Postby Marvaddin on Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:32 pm

Haydena wrote:Oh, I dunno Marv, that is kinda arrogant ;). I think on aesthetics alone this will be more appealing than the Brazil map, it's also not a complete Classic map clone like your map is, I remember some of your comments... "I'll study the classic map"...

I think it'll be played more than the Brazil map... It's a lot better in my opinion, your map is starting to look out of date with all these new good looking maps (Not including mine lol)


Yeah, I believe the aspect of this is much more appealing. It can made it more played, of course. Im also thinking about improve the visual of the Brazil map, after I complete Philippines and South America (my next project). However, I think the only thing really wrong about the appeal of my map is the number of Brazilians in the site, much much lower than the number of people from Canada, USA, England, and, yeah, Ireland :wink:

But, my map is not a complete clone of classic, I studied it, and it was a good experience, I learned, for example, to avoid wasted continents :D All map makers should do the same. Its a tip that the classic always win polls about map preference, isnt it? :)
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Postby Jota on Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:19 pm

Regarding continents, if the southeastern region doesn't gain any extra borders, then I think you almost need to have six of them. Bringing it down to five would make one or more continents bigger than they are, which would in turn make them even harder to hold.
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Postby Jota on Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:51 pm

What's the status of the map at this point?
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Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:59 pm

---I've contacted Kevin about his needed response to some of the posts in the thread. He's obviously a busy man, so am awaiting that before we go on to Quenching. Also I'vebeen in contact with the Middle Earth cartographers, and similarly are awaiting their responses. They've notified me though that an update is coming soon. I'd like to get the Ireland Map, North America Map, Middle Earth Map, and the USApcalypse Map, up all around the same time.

--Andy
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Postby qeee1 on Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:00 pm

*bump*

(Come on Kevin, your fans are waiting)
Frigidus wrote:but now that it's become relatively popular it's suffered the usual downturn in coolness.
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Postby spiesr on Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:04 pm

The colors are too similar!!!
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Postby Phobia on Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:30 pm

im liking it, should be an enjoyable map
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Postby kevinc on Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:05 am

Hey, here's the rationale behind this map.

Map, as it stands:
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I want create a map, as geographically correct as possible, otherwise it would have no interest to me. Certain liberties have been taken with borders, but I won't delete or split counties. Similarly, I want the regions somewhat based in reality.

Initially I used the 4 provinces as the main regions of the game, but as people pointed out, that was ideal. So I changed it to have 6 regions. 3 are easy to hold, 2 are quite tough and 1 is very difficult. The bonuses reflect that. (I've just changed the Munster & Connaught ones now)

It's only designed for between 3-5 players, so it's a slightly different dynamic to a 6 person game.


Now, let's see this map live!
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Postby qeee1 on Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:27 am

Can you quench it now Andy?
Frigidus wrote:but now that it's become relatively popular it's suffered the usual downturn in coolness.
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