The King's Court [Quenched]

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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:24 pm

Rob Mc wrote:I understand that when I bombard my troops don't move off the catapult...but why can't I move troops off the catapult during the reinforcement phase of my turn?


Because territories that are bombarded by your catapults are not considered to be connected to the catapults. Only attackable territories are considered to be connected. For this reason the only place you would be able to fort your catapult guys to would be to the nearest Trebuchet, should you have taken it that turn and own it.

For this map, it would be nearly pointless to do so though, since you would just lose all your guys. Catapults are primarily used for helping you take back your castle area once someone has attacked you and failed to completely remove you from the area. They're also used for bombarding your opponents bonuses through the trebuchets, which often there is little to no point in doing until the catapults have accumulated a dozen or two troops on them.
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby wolfmaster on Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:42 pm

Need to check on some of army placement
for e2 village start with 1 neutral.
for n54 start with 2 neutral
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby nemrehs1 on Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:57 pm

with knight K6 I couldn't assault archer S4.

Also, now F is the only castle which only has one village around it, this would give that player a starting disadvantage.
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Pirlo on Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:24 pm

nemrehs1 wrote:with knight K6 I couldn't assault archer S4.

Also, now F is the only castle which only has one village around it, this would give that player a starting disadvantage.


and would give the opponents an obvious clue ;)

all i need is to get the ground color a bit lighter...

in general, this map is very sexy though :mrgreen:

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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby chipv on Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:00 pm

wolfmaster wrote:Need to check on some of army placement
for e2 village start with 1 neutral.
for n54 start with 2 neutral


Well spotted, XML has been submitted, thanks.

nemrehs1 wrote:with knight K6 I couldn't assault archer S4.
Also, now F is the only castle which only has one village around it, this would give that player a starting disadvantage.


S4 is an impassable so K6 cannot attack S4.

F has other advantages.
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby nemrehs1 on Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:39 pm

chipv wrote:F has other advantages.


What are the other advantages of F?
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:19 am

nemrehs1 wrote:
chipv wrote:F has other advantages.


What are the other advantages of F?


First one that jumps out is that it's catapult can attack four other castles. No direct access from an impassable S archer as well, making it a little easier to keep archer attacks at bay with the knight. It's also a lot easier to clean up the mess left behind by an archer attack.

Those are the ones that've jumped out to me. I'm not sure if there are any others that I've overlooked.
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Kabanellas on Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:11 am

it also has a good access to knights. From V6 you can reach K7 that controls a lot of other knights... Also, unlike Castle G (its direct opponent), Castle F catapult can reach S6 archer.
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby danryan on Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:56 pm

The archers seem to have been reduced to near irrelevance with the 4 neutral on the S archers - maybe it's just me but I've found the catapult to trebuchet is a much more effective bombardment route?

I'm completely ambivalent still on the castles starting neutral - my preference was the old start because if you fail on that first try for your castle from the noble you're in deep doo doo, but I can see it both ways as this is the classic conquest style start.
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Kabanellas on Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:52 pm

danryan wrote:The archers seem to have been reduced to near irrelevance with the 4 neutral on the S archers


Dan remember than those 4 neutral troops on 'S' archers exist on those that directly connect Castle Archers. That was implemented a long time ago in the first updates to the XML.

As for the change in the Starting points - chip and I we're still debating them. There's a downside to it like that you mentioned, people do have a fairly big chance of failing to get the castle (or castles) on the first round. On the other hand you have some cool advantages like having just 2 starting points per player on 1v1 and being capable of using the manual deployment feature.
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby fumandomuerte on Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:34 am

The log reads different for maps when players are holding their catapults (only +2 besides castles)... That gives a lot of information about the location of certain player if you read it carefully in FoW games.
For example in certain castles the log marks +2 added to ? (castle) and then +2 added to ? (the catapult) while other castles have a +1 added to ? in the middle corresponding to an archer or a knight.

Not a problem and I actually like that trick ;)
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:20 am

Kabanellas wrote:
danryan wrote:The archers seem to have been reduced to near irrelevance with the 4 neutral on the S archers


Dan remember than those 4 neutral troops on 'S' archers exist on those that directly connect Castle Archers. That was implemented a long time ago in the first updates to the XML.

As for the change in the Starting points - chip and I we're still debating them. There's a downside to it like that you mentioned, people do have a fairly big chance of failing to get the castle (or castles) on the first round. On the other hand you have some cool advantages like having just 2 starting points per player on 1v1 and being capable of using the manual deployment feature.


One easy way to fix the potential problems with not getting a castle on the first turn would be to readjust the neutral values on the castles to 1 (which would almost guarentee everybody would be able to take their castle round 1) or 2 (which at least increases the chance of players getting their castles round 1).
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Kabanellas on Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:29 am

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:One easy way to fix the potential problems with not getting a castle on the first turn would be to readjust the neutral values on the castles to 1 (which would almost guarentee everybody would be able to take their castle round 1) or 2 (which at least increases the chance of players getting their castles round 1).


but then the non-attributed Noble's Castles, would be a too easy catch. Actually they are already an easy catch at 3 neutral troops. The knights + castles bonus are cumulative so owning 2 castles makes a big difference.
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:39 am

Kabanellas wrote:
-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:One easy way to fix the potential problems with not getting a castle on the first turn would be to readjust the neutral values on the castles to 1 (which would almost guarentee everybody would be able to take their castle round 1) or 2 (which at least increases the chance of players getting their castles round 1).


but then the non-attributed Noble's Castles, would be a too easy catch. Actually they are already an easy catch at 3 neutral troops. The knights + castles bonus are cumulative so owning 2 castles makes a big difference.


Then perhaps a more appropriate setup would be to have the castles at a higher neutral and then set the nobles to start with a higher number on them? A 6 noble and 4 castle will have a 3 to 1 chance of taking the castle. If you wanted to have better odds, then 7 noble and 4 castle would have approximately 6 to 1 chance. Having a 6 noble and 3 castle would produce a roughly 6 to 1 chance of taking the castle as well, if you wanted to leave the castle at 3.

The values can be played with, but I would think that the concept should at least work out.
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby mc05025 on Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:11 am

I play only big games (8 players) and I prefer to play with good players so I will tell you one problem about that kind of games.

In a lot of maps, the big games (8 players) with flat rate are very likely to end to a stalemate.
These games are veeeery boring and they end when a player or players miss their turns and be kicked out or with a suiside.

This map has an additional problem that the catapelts and archers make better defence than attacks.
I have allready seen games that there was a great danger to end at a stalemate. For example see game 8200655. A good playing at that game will end at a stalemate although red played very well and at the biggining of the game had three castles and much more troops than anyone else.

Sollution.

The only solution I can imagine is to give more combined bonuses so when a player becomes very strong to be very difficult for the others to fight him.
For example give extra bonuses for the player with two castles (triple villages bonus for two castles and x6 villages bonus for three castles etc).

That is only an example of course. I do not know if something like that created problems at other kinds of games like 1vc1. But at 8 player game the solution I suggested whould give a very good reason for everybody to make many big attacks and it would reduse very much the problem of the stalemates.


I agree that your last change at the castles (start only with a noble) made the game worse because if someone has one or two bad rolls at the beggining he has completely lost.
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby darodeth on Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:21 am

Sorry if this has already been reported, but I just noticed that Bob does not believe my A6 Catapult should be able to attack T1 Trebuchet. Instead it says it's bombarded by T1. Didn't know if this was the thread too report that or not.
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:49 pm

mc05025 wrote:I play only big games (8 players) and I prefer to play with good players so I will tell you one problem about that kind of games.

In a lot of maps, the big games (8 players) with flat rate are very likely to end to a stalemate.
These games are veeeery boring and they end when a player or players miss their turns and be kicked out or with a suiside.

This map has an additional problem that the catapelts and archers make better defence than attacks.
I have allready seen games that there was a great danger to end at a stalemate. For example see game 8200655. A good playing at that game will end at a stalemate although red played very well and at the biggining of the game had three castles and much more troops than anyone else.


This is not a problem with the map, it is a problem with playing multiplayer games against good players. To say that it is a problem with the map is to say that it is the problem with 95%+ of the maps on the site.

The catapults and archers are primarily for defense, and that also is not a flaw with the map. These troops also can be used as support during offense as well.

mc05025 wrote:Sollution.

The only solution I can imagine is to give more combined bonuses so when a player becomes very strong to be very difficult for the others to fight him.
For example give extra bonuses for the player with two castles (triple villages bonus for two castles and x6 villages bonus for three castles etc).

That is only an example of course. I do not know if something like that created problems at other kinds of games like 1vc1. But at 8 player game the solution I suggested whould give a very good reason for everybody to make many big attacks and it would reduse very much the problem of the stalemates.


I agree that your last change at the castles (start only with a noble) made the game worse because if someone has one or two bad rolls at the beggining he has completely lost.


I would not agree with these changes, as they would completely kill the map.
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Kabanellas on Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:24 am

Pretty much it Tanarri ;)
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby mc05025 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:02 am

It is true that this is a problem for all the maps in which there are no object (for freestyle games it is a solution) or combined bonuses.

But why combined bonuses would kill the map?
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Kabanellas on Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:06 pm

The all concept of this map is based on auto-deployable bonus - those are the production lines. Archers - Catapults and Knights.

The only 'free' bonus would come from villages and a couple of other features. ;)
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Nola_Lifer on Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:52 pm

Is this considered pretty much quenched? Seems to be pretty good imo. :mrgreen:
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby MarshalNey on Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:42 am

For free-for-all games, this map played really well, although that was before the update and I'm really not a fan of the neutral castles for those games, although it might help with the problem below...

For team games, this map played quite a bit like Poland, which means the strategy is to load up on a single Noble and take the Chamberlain, then use a huge stack to attack the King and wipe all of the other players. It makes the whole concept of Empire-building and production lines irrelevant.

The worst part of this "strategy" (really just brute force stacking) is that it forces the other team to follow suit or guarantee a loss. This was something I tried to point out to the other team, but unfortunately my lack of diplomacy got me cussed out :roll: They were the ones to point out that the map strategy was almost exactly like Poland, and I find it hard to disagree. I really don't like Poland at all, since most of the bonuses on that map are meaningless in terms of a winning strategy. It's a stack-war map, which is pretty mindless and largely up to the dice.

Any thoughts?

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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Kabanellas on Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:39 am

MarshalNey wrote:For free-for-all games, this map played really well, although that was before the update and I'm really not a fan of the neutral castles for those games, although it might help with the problem below...


I'm not sold to that idea as well.... it brings some advantages for 1v1 i think. But it doesn't work that well for team games and people will have a considerable chance of failing to get the castle on the first strike, leaving them in a somewhat disadvantageous position. Also, with this update I find that players use less of the map.

For team games, this map played quite a bit like Poland, which means the strategy is to load up on a single Noble and take the Chamberlain, then use a huge stack to attack the King and wipe all of the other players. It makes the whole concept of Empire-building and production lines irrelevant.


..for the reasons stated above. Though I must confess that I've rarely seen the king being used in any type of game. Previous and after the update.
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby chipv on Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:29 am

The king is used plenty but I am not totally comfortable with the new change myself either.

Solving 1v1 at the expense of team games is not a good exchange, I think.
For this reason I would be ok to revert back to having castle + noble as starting positions as before.
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Re: The King's Court [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby MrBenn on Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:29 pm

chipv wrote:The king is used plenty but I am not totally comfortable with the new change myself either.

Solving 1v1 at the expense of team games is not a good exchange, I think.
For this reason I would be ok to revert back to having castle + noble as starting positions as before.

While I've not played any 1v1 games on the map (and am not convinced I've played any games on the revised version), I would agree with the general view that 1v1s are not the be-all and end-all.
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