The King's Court [Quenched]

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Re: The King's Court

Postby fumandomuerte on Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:44 am

Amazing project. I'll try to come later with concerns/suggestions.
I love staying away from the map foundry for a few days just to come back to find jewels like this one 8-)
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Re: The King's Court

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:54 pm

Thanks FM :)
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Re: The King's Court

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:59 pm

small version with rearranged court

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Re: The King's Court

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:10 pm

I'd say the court looks like it meets the criteria that we needed to see for this map to get out of the pot and into the fire.

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Re: The King's Court

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:54 pm

Neutral army starters will be the key element here.

I’m proposing the following numbers after some analysis:

-Castles would start with 3 armies. So a player in the initial round would have 3 + 3 auto-deploy + 3 region bonus (there will be no region bonuses in this map but I think we’ll have those minimum 3 troops– right?) making a total of 9 armies to use on the first round.

-Catapults would be protected by 6 neutral armies – they give a fairly reasonable income of 2 armies, though they come in auto-deploy mode and with limited options to use. We also need to make this value high to avoid initial 1st round bombardments via trebuchets on other castles.

-Cluster Knights would start with 4 neutral armies – good income of 1 free army (Knight + Castle) + 1 in auto-deploy mode and a very good ability of assaulting in a range of 3. All other knights would start with 3 neutral armies.

-Cluster Archers would start with 2 neutral armies – 1 army in auto-deploy mode in a region that can only bombard apart from assaulting other archers in a range of 4. All other archers in-between Castles would start with 3 neutral armies.

-Villages – the only straight free-to-use bonus shouldn’t have more than 2 neutral troops to kill.

-Trebuchets – the only neutral killer, would have 3 neutral armies
All other regions would have 1 neutral army on them.

The King’s Court

All Noble family members would start with 4 neutral troops though they will only give a +1 auto-deploy army. But I do prefer to enlarge this value to 4 and reduce the value of the Counselors to 3. This way the second player wouldn’t benefit immensely from the first one taking down a big bunch of neutral armies there.
The King should have a high value in army numbers for its importance while giving access to all castles. Don’t want to make it too big though – I’m proposing 8

P.S. – non attributed Castles (in 3, 5, 6 or 7 player games) should start with 8 neutral troops

Neutral starters placement
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Re: The King's Court

Postby mattattam on Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:13 pm

In your map key for Catapults it says, "can 1w assualt Trebuchets." Did you intend the for the Catapult to one way assault any Trebuchet or just the closest one?
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Re: The King's Court

Postby Kabanellas on Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:48 pm

Any Trebuchet. In this way with your catapults production you can reach any castle. It will only last for one turn though, because Trebuchets are killer neutrals.
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Re: The King's Court

Postby mattattam on Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:03 pm

Alrighty, if it's any Trebuchet I suggest saying, "can 1w assualt any Trebuchet". I think this clarifies it a bit more and should fit.


Also I want to clarify about the Archers. It says they can assault archers up to a range of 4 and are immune to impassables. So can you count the range of 4 by jumping from one side of an impassable hexagon to any other side of that hexagon? Therefor, can the castle A6 archer assault castle H3 archer? Or can the castle G6 archer assault the S6 archer? How do the impassables work here?

-Trebuchets – the only neutral killer, would have 3 neutral armies
All other regions would have 1 neutral army on them.

I don't get what this means. I see 4 Trebuchets. Is only one of them going start at 3 neutral armies? Or do you mean that once you take any Trebuchet it will return to 1 instead of 3 at the start of your next turn?
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Re: The King's Court

Postby Kabanellas on Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:14 pm

mattattam wrote:Alrighty, if it's any Trebuchet I suggest saying, "can 1w assualt any Trebuchet". I think this clarifies it a bit more and should fit.

Ok, seems pretty reasonable I'll do it :)


Also I want to clarify about the Archers. It says they can assault archers up to a range of 4 and are immune to impassables. So can you count the range of 4 by jumping from one side of an impassable hexagon to any other side of that hexagon? Therefor, can the castle A6 archer assault castle H3 archer? Or can the castle G6 archer assault the S6 archer? How do the impassables work here?

Yes, that's exactly how Archers work. Though in that case, I've already noticed that I'll have to rearrange those castle archers so they won't get into direct contact. I don't want an archer from one castle having direct contact with another from a neighbouring castle.

-Trebuchets – the only neutral killer, would have 3 neutral armies
All other regions would have 1 neutral army on them.


I don't get what this means. I see 4 Trebuchets. Is only one of them going start at 3 neutral armies? Or do you mean that once you take any Trebuchet it will return to 1 instead of 3 at the start of your next turn?

I was just trying to explain that all territories named by N## will start with 1 neutral troop. Trebuchets will revert to the same 3 neutral killers.

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Re: The King's Court

Postby mattattam on Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:12 pm

Yeah I didn't think you wanted archers to be able to attack other archers at adjacent castles.

I was just trying to explain that all territories named by N## will start with 1 neutral troop. Trebuchets will revert to the same 3 neutral killers.

Gotcha. I thought the second line was relating to the Trebuchets.

I like the neutral army starts. I'll look more in depth later. I really like this map. Looking forward to playing it :D
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Re: The King's Court

Postby chipv on Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:19 pm

Instead of 1 army a-d

I prefer

+1 auto

and change the legend for it
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Re: The King's Court

Postby chipv on Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:32 pm

More:

Change 1 army a-d
to
+1 auto

This takes less space and allows you to use +1 for non autodeploy instead of 1 army
Also can use noble instead of family member, maybe clearer

Examples

Castle : +3 auto, can 1w assault its noble
Castle + Knight : +1 , +1 per 2 knights
Village : +1
Knight : +1 auto

Council: +1 auto, +1 with King, +1 per noble
Duke: +1 per 2 knights
Bishop: +1 per 2 villages (although you already get +1 per village)
Field Marshal : +1 per catapult, can 1w assault archers and trebuchets

The nobles can 1w assault counsellors, +1 auto

Archer: +1 auto, bombard range 2, assaults archers range 4, immune to impassables (?)
Catapult: +2 auto, can 1w assault trebuchets, bombard range 3
Trebuchet: Resets to 3 neutral, bombard range 4

Abbreviations

1w One-way
auto autodeploy
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Re: The King's Court

Postby chipv on Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:38 pm

I think it might be an interesting twist to have the archers not immune to impassables, actually.

More realistic also?
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Re: The King's Court

Postby mattattam on Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:22 am

chipv wrote:I think it might be an interesting twist to have the archers not immune to impassables, actually.

More realistic also?

What if you have the archers immune to green impassables only? This would make it so you don't have to change around any archers and they can still have access to the archers on the raised green impassables. It's like archers can not shoot across the large lakes and rock field impassables, but they can shoot up and down the green hills. That's more realistic too. In the map key you can put "immune to green impassables," instead of, "are immune to impassables".
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Re: The King's Court

Postby Kabanellas on Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:48 am

chipv wrote:More:

Change 1 army a-d
to
+1 auto

This takes less space and allows you to use +1 for non autodeploy instead of 1 army
Also can use noble instead of family member, maybe clearer

Examples

Castle : +3 auto, can 1w assault its noble
Castle + Knight : +1 , +1 per 2 knights
Village : +1
Knight : +1 auto

Council: +1 auto, +1 with King, +1 per noble
Duke: +1 per 2 knights
Bishop: +1 per 2 villages (although you already get +1 per village)
Field Marshal : +1 per catapult, can 1w assault archers and trebuchets

The nobles can 1w assault counsellors, +1 auto

Archer: +1 auto, bombard range 2, assaults archers range 4, immune to impassables (?)
Catapult: +2 auto, can 1w assault trebuchets, bombard range 3
Trebuchet: Resets to 3 neutral, bombard range 4

Abbreviations

1w One-way
auto autodeploy


doable :)

I'll take care of it in the next post
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Re: The King's Court

Postby Kabanellas on Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:50 am

chipv wrote:I think it might be an interesting twist to have the archers not immune to impassables, actually.

More realistic also?


They are the light infantry, the skirmishers. That's why they are not affected by impassables unlike heavy infantry or cavalry.
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Re: The King's Court

Postby Kabanellas on Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:54 am

mattattam wrote:
chipv wrote:I think it might be an interesting twist to have the archers not immune to impassables, actually.

More realistic also?

What if you have the archers immune to green impassables only? This would make it so you don't have to change around any archers and they can still have access to the archers on the raised green impassables. It's like archers can not shoot across the large lakes and rock field impassables, but they can shoot up and down the green hills. That's more realistic too. In the map key you can put "immune to green impassables," instead of, "are immune to impassables".


for the sake of simplicity, I want all bombards to not be affected by impassables. Meaning that a Trebuchet can bombard over mountains, and so would Archers and catapults. Thought I recon the realistic part you're talking about.

Adding extra rules and definitions would mean adding a lot more of legend boards and making the map more complicated to read.
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Re: The King's Court

Postby natty dread on Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:52 pm

I have to agree with kab with the part about the archers - gotta follow the old KISS rule ;)

Although I also agree with chipv's suggestions about the name changes.
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Re: The King's Court

Postby chipv on Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:23 pm

I think the impassables is a great idea for the gameplay.

It is far simpler as you say to keep the rules consistent for all projectiles. Players may wonder whether or not
impassables count as part of the range of a ranged weapon.

I also agree about players wondering whether or not catapults can assault any trebuchet as opposed to one within range.

The best maps do not require BOB to play them, so I hope that is where we end up, great job so far, Kab.

In terms of colour I would prefer to keep all the impassables lakes. I think maybe it would be clearer in terms of
who can move where and who can shoot where.
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Re: The King's Court

Postby Kabanellas on Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:44 pm

Thanks chip!

as for the impassables, I really like that variety (we could say that we have mountains, lakes and forests) - it will benefit hugely the map, making it more rich graphically. I also like the hidden archers on some forests that can only be reached by bombardments or other archers (and we couldn't have those standing on lakes).
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Re: The King's Court

Postby chipv on Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:02 am

Kabanellas wrote:Thanks chip!

as for the impassables, I really like that variety (we could say that we have mountains, lakes and forests) - it will benefit hugely the map, making it more rich graphically. I also like the hidden archers on some forests that can only be reached by bombardments or other archers (and we couldn't have those standing on lakes).


I can get behind the forests, that is a good idea , gameplay would be awesome.

It's the rules and legend now I'm worried about.

I am struggling to follow the ability of archers, catapults , and trebuchets being able to fire over a mountain.
That is the only odd thing about this map. There aren't even any weapons in modern times that are able to accurately
hit a target over a mountain. I hope players dont assume that they can't.

Maybe that is worth adding to the legend if room.

Aside from that, can archers not assault all adjaecent territories? The post about starting neutrals kinda implies no.
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Re: The King's Court

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:55 am

chipv wrote:Aside from that, can archers not assault all adjaecent territories? The post about starting neutrals kinda implies no.


no they can't. I covered that in the legend:

'Archers, Catapults and Trebuchets can only bombard unless stated otherwise'

the 'otherwise part' in the archers legend :) :

'-assaults other archers within a range of 4'
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Re: The King's Court

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:22 am

as for the reality aspect, imagine it this way:

Trebuchets have shoot in a very wide arch that can go over hills, while archers can quickly position themselves to shoot their arrows, due to their high mobility.

So Archer S1 could quickly climb the hill to give a shot at any troops standing in A4.
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Re: The King's Court

Postby chipv on Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:08 am

Kabanellas wrote:
chipv wrote:Aside from that, can archers not assault all adjaecent territories? The post about starting neutrals kinda implies no.


no they can't. I covered that in the legend:

'Archers, Catapults and Trebuchets can only bombard unless stated otherwise'

the 'otherwise part' in the archers legend :) :

'-assaults other archers within a range of 4'


When you have a small and large map with all hexes named on it, I will try out the gameplay straight away.
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Re: The King's Court

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:59 am

I'll be posting them today... I expect.
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