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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/29 pg 7

Postby MarshalNey on Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:34 pm

isaiah40 wrote:
RedBaron0 wrote:I've been toying with the idea of added 2 more territories (47 total - 46 + 1 killer neutral) and starting the bridges as neutrals. Figure say 2, maybe 3 neutral armies, just to give a little more starting security to bonuses at the start of the game from someone who lands on any of the bridges with the initial drop. I think 1 in SW Philly between the airport and Elmwood that shouldn't affect the bonus value, and another territory built from part of Strawberry Mansion, and that would bump Northern Liberties up to a bonus of 5.


I say do it as long as there is room which I'm sure there is plenty of. I would like to see 3 neutrals on those bridge IMHO. Other than that this is really looking good!


I also concur with this. In fact, looking at everything else, the neutrals on the bridges is my only going concern for the gameplay.

Bonus values for the regions - good!
Very low chances of getting bonuses on the drop - mostly yes (except for the bridges, which are still okay)
Region connections/impassibles - good. The 'chunks' of territory separated by bottleneck regions makes for fine Classic gameplay. The NJ toll, looking at the legend alone, leads me to believe that the Bridges are easy to attack into, but hard to attack out of (must take a killer neutral 4 before attacking out). Is this correct?
Underdog bonus - brilliant. Love it, and although the bonus for 1 region looks a bit exploitable, it is of course a two-edged sword. It opens up a whole new realm of strategy, especially in team games as you say.

This might be ready for a sticky very soon. :)

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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/29 pg 7

Postby RedBaron0 on Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:36 am

MarshalNey wrote:I also concur with this. In fact, looking at everything else, the neutrals on the bridges is my only going concern for the gameplay.

Bonus values for the regions - good!
Very low chances of getting bonuses on the drop - mostly yes (except for the bridges, which are still okay)
Region connections/impassibles - good. The 'chunks' of territory separated by bottleneck regions makes for fine Classic gameplay. The NJ toll, looking at the legend alone, leads me to believe that the Bridges are easy to attack into, but hard to attack out of (must take a killer neutral 4 before attacking out). Is this correct?
Underdog bonus - brilliant. Love it, and although the bonus for 1 region looks a bit exploitable, it is of course a two-edged sword. It opens up a whole new realm of strategy, especially in team games as you say.

This might be ready for a sticky very soon. :)

Marshal Ney


Update coming shortly that should address any issue you've got Marshal.

The previous self-suggestion I've put in and should eliminate any of the Bridge bonus drop issues, as they'll all start with 3 neutral.
The tolls work just as you say. Attack the bridge from any of the connecting territories, (Tacony, Port Richmond, Independence Hall, or Penn's Landing) and from those bridges you can attack the tolls. (Killer neutral 4) From the toll you can attack any of the other 3 bridges. (excludes the one you just attacked from) I've reworded the instructions there to be clearer. I might have to remove the "Exit Only" part of the sign to prevent confusion, that's there to have a nicer graphical appeal just like a highway road sign.

Click image to enlarge.
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Gimme a few and I'll begetting this up here. :D
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/29 pg 7

Postby RedBaron0 on Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:33 am

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2 territories added - Cobb's Creek and Boathouse Row.
Changed the airport to Hog's Island
Northern Liberties up to 5 bonus
SW Philly still 2, could be a debatable 3 bonus
Bridges start as neutral 3's territories split between players at 42.
47 total territories - 4 starting neutrals, 1 killer neutral
Bridge-toll explanation rewritten to be clearer

Hopefully that's all the concerns for gameplay, but I know how this works, I know I'm not done till the stamp comes down! ;)

The starting neutrals of the bridges gives early game protection for bonuses, but the bridges still must be guarded at some point to hold bonuses, and also to prevent backdoor runs from players attempting kills.
The underdog bonus will certainly add new strategic thoughts; especially in team games, but those thoughts shouldn't override the necessity to win the game and unnecessarily cause build game scenarios. Max value of the underdog bonus currently gives a player with 1 remaining territory 7 armies to work with.(3 standard + 4 bonus) Teams may try to use this to their advantage to gain extra armies, but in the process weaken their own teammate. I can see an issue that opposing teams may not as aggressively go after 1 player for fear of the underdog bonus coming into play. Instead, I see teams looking to build bonuses, the bridge bonus especially since they start neutral, as well to gain control of bridges to have reign over the map to make kills when ready. The quads game might be the most concerning since all players will start with 5 territories, just 2 territories from the start of the underdog bonus at 3 territories. But that bonus is just 1 army, and may not be worth the early weakening of players on the same team, and still benefits the opposite team in my opinion. Should make for an interesting Beta test. :)

Don't screw it up.... bad dice, misdeploys, or misadvances will likely cost you a game you should have won even more so than normal with the unique underdog bonus!
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/29 pg 7

Postby Victor Sullivan on Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:53 am

I agree with isaiah, this is looking very good! I'd argue that South Philly should be +3, though. 3 borders and 5 territories sounds exactly like Africa from Classic, and Africa is in the middle of everything ;)

Another thing: I worry that Fox Chase will be a major chokepoint. Considering that it and the T-P bridge (and that would be covered partially by the New Jersey toll, too) are all you'd have to cover to hold a +5 bonus with Frankford and Great Northeast worries me a lot. Solutions can include reducing Northeast's bonus to +2 and opening up Frankford more, such as a connection between Juniata and Wissinoming.

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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/29 pg 7

Postby isaiah40 on Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:03 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:I agree with isaiah, this is looking very good! I'd argue that South Philly should be +3, though. 3 borders and 5 territories sounds exactly like Africa from Classic, and Africa is in the middle of everything ;)


I wouldn't say exactly since you have to defend (if I remember correctly) against 5 territories. Here you only have 2 to defend against, so I think the +2 is good, though +3 would be bad either.

Another thing: I worry that Fox Chase will be a major chokepoint. Considering that it and the T-P bridge (and that would be covered partially by the New Jersey toll, too) are all you'd have to cover to hold a +5 bonus with Frankford and Great Northeast worries me a lot. Solutions can include reducing Northeast's bonus to +2 and opening up Frankford more, such as a connection between Juniata and Wissinoming.


I agree with Sully here. Personally I would lean towards adding in another connection between Bridesburg and Port Richmond. Though that may mean Northern Liberties value may have to change. But I think it can stay where it is.
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/29 pg 7

Postby RedBaron0 on Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:58 pm

I think the solution that takes care of both things guys would be to take a territory out of the GNE and put it into Frankford and adding a connection between Frankford and Northern Liberties. This way the reverse is now true, GNE become a 2 bonus and Frankford a 3 bonus, and harder to defend the whole of NE Philly for a +5 bonus. I'll toss the numbers into the calculator and make sure it isn't too much of a stretch.... I get the feeling Frankford might end up as a +4 bonus then, in which case I might just move a second territory from GNE to Frankford and have GNE be a 4 territory +2 bonus.

That being said, I worry that the map is becoming a "start on the outside and work your way in" map where the "best" bonuses to hold are SW Philly, GNE, and Germantown, and difficult ones are in the center. Still may not be a major issue though, tell me what you guys think!
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/31 pg 8

Postby MarshalNey on Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:27 pm

SW Philly should stay at +2 I think- making it a +3 when compared with Germantown doesn't look right.

RedBaron0 wrote:I think the solution that takes care of both things guys would be to take a territory out of the GNE and put it into Frankford and adding a connection between Frankford and Northern Liberties. This way the reverse is now true, GNE become a 2 bonus and Frankford a 3 bonus, and harder to defend the whole of NE Philly for a +5 bonus. I'll toss the numbers into the calculator and make sure it isn't too much of a stretch.... I get the feeling Frankford might end up as a +4 bonus then, in which case I might just move a second territory from GNE to Frankford and have GNE be a 4 territory +2 bonus.


Sully and Isaiah brought up a good points, and I think that adding a border region to Frankford is the best solution. If you add a connection between Wissinoming and Juniata, it shouldn't significantly impact Northern Liberties defenses.

Taking a region from the Great NE and moving it to Frankford also helps, but switching 2 regions I think would make the Great NE too much of an early-game buster for whomever steals it. At 4 regions, the Great NE is much easier to take in the 1st or 2nd round (say one gets 2 or 3 of the regions on the drop) and then hold for the rest of the game. It would become the focus of the map, much like Australia in Classic.

RedBaron0 wrote:That being said, I worry that the map is becoming a "start on the outside and work your way in" map where the "best" bonuses to hold are SW Philly, GNE, and Germantown, and difficult ones are in the center. Still may not be a major issue though, tell me what you guys think!


Well, see above about the Great NE :) Other than that, I think that none of the bonuses are unrealistic to take or defend- except for Center City- so that different drops will offer different possibilities each game.

If you want to open the map up a bit more, you could reduce the Bridge neutrals to 2 and/or reduce the Tolls to killer neutral 2 or 3. I don't think that would make the Bridge bonus too easy to take- you'd still have to kill off 6 troops for a +2, and 'strand' an occupying troop for each.

In any case, this map looks close to wrapping up the gameplay. Sticky time.

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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/31 pg 8

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:04 pm

Sorry for the nitpicking, but it's "Palmyra" not "Palmayra."

Thanks.

TGD (excited Philadelphia resident!)
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 2/2 pg 8

Postby RedBaron0 on Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:01 pm

Click image to enlarge.
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Click image to enlarge.
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I gotta roll for work, quick go over the changes:

Fixed Palmyra ;)
Moved a territory from GNE to Frankford (Mayfair)
Frankford and South Philly at 3
Bridges to remain at 3 neutral
and tolls at a 4 killer nuetral
Moved the Ben Franklin Bridge up to connect to Spring Garden, more accurate connection and makes Center City a little easier to hold

Since South Philly and Frankford are virtually identical (5 territories, defend 3) I figured to make them the same, and with the neutral cover on the bridges I felt a bonus of 3 was more reasonable.

Gotta run, discuss!
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 2/2 pg 8

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:13 pm

Looks, scrumptious! I think all the neutrals could be knocked down by 1. 2 a piece for the bridges, 3 for the toll.
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 2/2 pg 8

Postby RedBaron0 on Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:59 pm

I could see that, right now it's 10 total neutral armies to get from 1 bridge to the next, and the 4 will show back up after a round has played out. 7 total is still good cover for early rounds, and isn't as much of a game changer later when going for kills. I'm liking the idea, anyone else prefer the neutral values as is? Otherwise I'll likely change the values to Vic's suggestion of 2 on the Bridges, and 3 for the toll.
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 2/2 pg 8

Postby MarshalNey on Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:36 pm

RedBaron0 wrote:I could see that, right now it's 10 total neutral armies to get from 1 bridge to the next, and the 4 will show back up after a round has played out. 7 total is still good cover for early rounds, and isn't as much of a game changer later when going for kills. I'm liking the idea, anyone else prefer the neutral values as is? Otherwise I'll likely change the values to Vic's suggestion of 2 on the Bridges, and 3 for the toll.


Oh, so now it's Vic's suggestion? Hmph. Anway, I think it would be a good change to bump them all down by 1.

Any other gameplay issues? RB, are you feeling more comfortable about the map? I see no further issues on my end.
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 2/2 pg 8

Postby RedBaron0 on Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:43 pm

MarshalNey wrote:
RedBaron0 wrote:I could see that, right now it's 10 total neutral armies to get from 1 bridge to the next, and the 4 will show back up after a round has played out. 7 total is still good cover for early rounds, and isn't as much of a game changer later when going for kills. I'm liking the idea, anyone else prefer the neutral values as is? Otherwise I'll likely change the values to Vic's suggestion of 2 on the Bridges, and 3 for the toll.


Oh, so now it's Vic's suggestion? Hmph. Anway, I think it would be a good change to bump them all down by 1.

Any other gameplay issues? RB, are you feeling more comfortable about the map? I see no further issues on my end.


His was just the most recent of the suggestions, trying to involve more community, ya know? 8-[ ;)

I'm good here, however, I fully encourage more input and suggestions!!!

Updated image with corrected neutral values: [edit] ugh, I forgot to fix the sign, I sees it, I'll get.

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Re: Philadelphia - updated 2/2 pg 8

Postby isaiah40 on Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:47 pm

I'm fine with whatever way you want to go. It's not a deal breaker with me.
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 2/2 pg 8

Postby MarshalNey on Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:16 pm

Sent the puppy out in the last Surveyor's Bulletin; if they don't notice anything in the next few days, it's off to Graphics with ya'.

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