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Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/31 pg 5

Postby RedBaron0 on Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:51 pm

The NJ tolls will be easier to see when I finally get the update up there. I promise tonight I get an update up, plus some number crunching. I still need to check the drop analysis, and look at the affect the underdog bonus has on a few things, mainly on team games. I gotta get something up though, I know I'm going on 3 weeks with little to no movement....
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Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/31 pg 5

Postby Victor Sullivan on Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:01 pm

RedBaron0 wrote:The NJ tolls will be easier to see when I finally get the update up there. I promise tonight I get an update up, plus some number crunching. I still need to check the drop analysis, and look at the affect the underdog bonus has on a few things, mainly on team games. I gotta get something up though, I know I'm going on 3 weeks with little to no movement....

The clock ticks... And tocks. But it hurts the clock to tock, so it mostly ticks. Anyways, it's 9pm and you sah, have no map... :(

**Sully waits in antici.........






























........pation**
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/22 pg 6

Postby RedBaron0 on Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:23 am

Click image to enlarge.
image


Click image to enlarge.
image

NOTE: Northern Liberties actually works out to be about 4.6. The number of continent neighbors is 3, not 6.

Click image to enlarge.
image


Here's some numbers and odds of dropping bonuses at the start. The thing that concerns me the most is the 3 territory bonus of South Philly being about a 1 in 10 chance of starting with that bonus. I might think of putting a starting neutral in there, or adding a 4th territory for that bonus. I'm also kinda thinking that I might code all the bridges as starting positions to prevent that bonus from coming up on the start as well.

I've adjusted the bonus values as it came out on the bonus calculator, more or less.

Gameplay changes:
University City connects to Rittenhouse Square, and is a larger territory that connect also to Fairmount Park.
Juniata is now a part of Northern Liberties to give a better chance at protecting that bonus.
I know I still have to explain in the legend about the underdog bonus, but I'm liking these numbers, not too high to be abused, and enough to possibly give you a shot if it is getting bad. Team games are going to be the main draw here, especially quads games. I could even see teams pushing a teammate down below 2 or 3 territories for the extra armies, and then protecting that player's last couple, or 1 territory.

Right now I know the sign for the NJ tolls is much flashier than the title, but I have plans for the title, it's graphical so I'm not overly worried about it right now.
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/22 pg 7

Postby carlpgoodrich on Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:48 am

Cool! But what happened to the the NJ territory with a -1 bonus as a replacement to the tolls? What this shot down and I missed it?
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/22 pg 7

Postby RedBaron0 on Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:22 pm

I must have missed that. Hmmm, it's an interesting concept, but the bridges leading to Jersey really lend themselves to having a "toll." Which I feel is best represented by a killer neutral. Having New Jersey be a negative bonus or a decay type territory is worth discussing, and does somewhat fit, I mean it's New Jersey... :lol: For now though I'm definitely leaning towards how this is at the moment.
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/22 pg 7

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:40 pm

Looks fine to me. I prefer the killer neutral to the auto-decay, myself.
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/22 pg 7

Postby carlpgoodrich on Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:40 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:Looks fine to me. I prefer the killer neutral to the auto-decay, myself.

The suggestion wasn't for an autodecay, it was for a negative bonus. The idea being that if you use NJ to get the bridge bonus, then it won't be worth as much. Also, if you want to use NJ as an easy mode of transportation (why else would anyone go to NJ?) you will pay a price.
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/22 pg 7

Postby RedBaron0 on Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:32 am

carlpgoodrich wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:Looks fine to me. I prefer the killer neutral to the auto-decay, myself.

The suggestion wasn't for an autodecay, it was for a negative bonus. The idea being that if you use NJ to get the bridge bonus, then it won't be worth as much. Also, if you want to use NJ as an easy mode of transportation (why else would anyone go to NJ?) you will pay a price.


And it is there with a killer neutral. You goto Jersey to visit, not to stay. It might be getting a little over complicated if I do something like, -1, -2, -3, -4 for each bridge owned plus the toll. Which would negate the bridge bonus completely. I really think this works as a killer neutral best. It's a path you HAVE to go though, you can't just stay and build up. It's a short cut for sure, from Tacony to Penn's Landing it's 5 territories instead of the 8 or 9 you'd have to go though going around through gigantic chunks of board space. If you get stuck in Jersey, poof, bye-bye armies.
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/22 pg 7

Postby isaiah40 on Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:28 am

RedBaron0 wrote:If you get stuck in Jersey, poof, bye-bye wallet.


Okay this is fixed! :lol: But seriously, having the NJ toll is a great idea and should not be scraped.
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/22 pg 7

Postby RedBaron0 on Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:09 am

isaiah40 wrote:
RedBaron0 wrote:If you get stuck in Jersey, poof, bye-bye wallet.


Okay this is fixed! :lol: But seriously, having the NJ toll is a great idea and should not be scraped.


That'd be true if I was working on a Atlantic City map. :lol: ;)

The idea will be staying, its just exactly how it might be represented on the map that is up for debate ATM. (killer neutral, decay, negative bonus) Where right now the killer neutral is my preference.
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/22 pg 7

Postby carlpgoodrich on Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:35 am

I am fine with the toll as it is. I have a personal affection to gameplay with negative bonuses because they are so interesting and are so rarely used. I also think the comedic aspect of losing troops just for being in NJ is funny :). But you might be right, the toll does work well in this map and unless someone else brings it up again I shall rest my case.
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/22 pg 7

Postby Z-Rambo on Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:46 am

An idea to help with the South Philly start out bonus....How about taking the southern part of Penn's Landing and turning it into Society Hill and trim part of the Naval Yard and turn it into the Sports Complex? It gives a couple more territories and lowers the percentages. Also, in SW Philly take part of the Airport and create Pennrose and/or Hog Island.
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/22 pg 7

Postby RedBaron0 on Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:43 am

I could add 2 territories, which would give South Philly 5 territories and a total of 44, I don't want to get to 45 total that are distributed which is bad for 1v1 games which would give 15 territories to each player, which gives an unfair advantage to the starting player.
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/29 pg 7

Postby RedBaron0 on Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:15 am

Click image to enlarge.
image


45 territories - 44 + 1 killer neutral
Added 2 territories to South Philly, Gray's Ferry and the Sport's Complex.
I did keep Society Hill in mind, and replaced Washington Square. Society Hill is definitely more Center City than South Philly anyways. ;)
Added Underdog bonus explanation.
Moved my signature down into the corner next to the date. Mostly to possibly use that space for something graphical later on.
Bonus values adjusted accordingly, South Philly up to 4, the bonus stats are almost exactly the same as Northern Liberties.

I'm open to your suggestions!

I've been toying with the idea of added 2 more territories (47 total - 46 + 1 killer neutral) and starting the bridges as neutrals. Figure say 2, maybe 3 neutral armies, just to give a little more starting security to bonuses at the start of the game from someone who lands on any of the bridges with the initial drop. I think 1 in SW Philly between the airport and Elmwood that shouldn't affect the bonus value, and another territory built from part of Strawberry Mansion, and that would bump Northern Liberties up to a bonus of 5.
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/29 pg 7

Postby isaiah40 on Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:17 pm

RedBaron0 wrote:I've been toying with the idea of added 2 more territories (47 total - 46 + 1 killer neutral) and starting the bridges as neutrals. Figure say 2, maybe 3 neutral armies, just to give a little more starting security to bonuses at the start of the game from someone who lands on any of the bridges with the initial drop. I think 1 in SW Philly between the airport and Elmwood that shouldn't affect the bonus value, and another territory built from part of Strawberry Mansion, and that would bump Northern Liberties up to a bonus of 5.


I say do it as long as there is room which I'm sure there is plenty of. I would like to see 3 neutrals on those bridge IMHO. Other than that this is really looking good!
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/29 pg 7

Postby MarshalNey on Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:34 pm

isaiah40 wrote:
RedBaron0 wrote:I've been toying with the idea of added 2 more territories (47 total - 46 + 1 killer neutral) and starting the bridges as neutrals. Figure say 2, maybe 3 neutral armies, just to give a little more starting security to bonuses at the start of the game from someone who lands on any of the bridges with the initial drop. I think 1 in SW Philly between the airport and Elmwood that shouldn't affect the bonus value, and another territory built from part of Strawberry Mansion, and that would bump Northern Liberties up to a bonus of 5.


I say do it as long as there is room which I'm sure there is plenty of. I would like to see 3 neutrals on those bridge IMHO. Other than that this is really looking good!


I also concur with this. In fact, looking at everything else, the neutrals on the bridges is my only going concern for the gameplay.

Bonus values for the regions - good!
Very low chances of getting bonuses on the drop - mostly yes (except for the bridges, which are still okay)
Region connections/impassibles - good. The 'chunks' of territory separated by bottleneck regions makes for fine Classic gameplay. The NJ toll, looking at the legend alone, leads me to believe that the Bridges are easy to attack into, but hard to attack out of (must take a killer neutral 4 before attacking out). Is this correct?
Underdog bonus - brilliant. Love it, and although the bonus for 1 region looks a bit exploitable, it is of course a two-edged sword. It opens up a whole new realm of strategy, especially in team games as you say.

This might be ready for a sticky very soon. :)

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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/29 pg 7

Postby RedBaron0 on Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:36 am

MarshalNey wrote:I also concur with this. In fact, looking at everything else, the neutrals on the bridges is my only going concern for the gameplay.

Bonus values for the regions - good!
Very low chances of getting bonuses on the drop - mostly yes (except for the bridges, which are still okay)
Region connections/impassibles - good. The 'chunks' of territory separated by bottleneck regions makes for fine Classic gameplay. The NJ toll, looking at the legend alone, leads me to believe that the Bridges are easy to attack into, but hard to attack out of (must take a killer neutral 4 before attacking out). Is this correct?
Underdog bonus - brilliant. Love it, and although the bonus for 1 region looks a bit exploitable, it is of course a two-edged sword. It opens up a whole new realm of strategy, especially in team games as you say.

This might be ready for a sticky very soon. :)

Marshal Ney


Update coming shortly that should address any issue you've got Marshal.

The previous self-suggestion I've put in and should eliminate any of the Bridge bonus drop issues, as they'll all start with 3 neutral.
The tolls work just as you say. Attack the bridge from any of the connecting territories, (Tacony, Port Richmond, Independence Hall, or Penn's Landing) and from those bridges you can attack the tolls. (Killer neutral 4) From the toll you can attack any of the other 3 bridges. (excludes the one you just attacked from) I've reworded the instructions there to be clearer. I might have to remove the "Exit Only" part of the sign to prevent confusion, that's there to have a nicer graphical appeal just like a highway road sign.

Click image to enlarge.
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Gimme a few and I'll begetting this up here. :D
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/29 pg 7

Postby RedBaron0 on Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:33 am

Click image to enlarge.
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2 territories added - Cobb's Creek and Boathouse Row.
Changed the airport to Hog's Island
Northern Liberties up to 5 bonus
SW Philly still 2, could be a debatable 3 bonus
Bridges start as neutral 3's territories split between players at 42.
47 total territories - 4 starting neutrals, 1 killer neutral
Bridge-toll explanation rewritten to be clearer

Hopefully that's all the concerns for gameplay, but I know how this works, I know I'm not done till the stamp comes down! ;)

The starting neutrals of the bridges gives early game protection for bonuses, but the bridges still must be guarded at some point to hold bonuses, and also to prevent backdoor runs from players attempting kills.
The underdog bonus will certainly add new strategic thoughts; especially in team games, but those thoughts shouldn't override the necessity to win the game and unnecessarily cause build game scenarios. Max value of the underdog bonus currently gives a player with 1 remaining territory 7 armies to work with.(3 standard + 4 bonus) Teams may try to use this to their advantage to gain extra armies, but in the process weaken their own teammate. I can see an issue that opposing teams may not as aggressively go after 1 player for fear of the underdog bonus coming into play. Instead, I see teams looking to build bonuses, the bridge bonus especially since they start neutral, as well to gain control of bridges to have reign over the map to make kills when ready. The quads game might be the most concerning since all players will start with 5 territories, just 2 territories from the start of the underdog bonus at 3 territories. But that bonus is just 1 army, and may not be worth the early weakening of players on the same team, and still benefits the opposite team in my opinion. Should make for an interesting Beta test. :)

Don't screw it up.... bad dice, misdeploys, or misadvances will likely cost you a game you should have won even more so than normal with the unique underdog bonus!
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/29 pg 7

Postby Victor Sullivan on Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:53 am

I agree with isaiah, this is looking very good! I'd argue that South Philly should be +3, though. 3 borders and 5 territories sounds exactly like Africa from Classic, and Africa is in the middle of everything ;)

Another thing: I worry that Fox Chase will be a major chokepoint. Considering that it and the T-P bridge (and that would be covered partially by the New Jersey toll, too) are all you'd have to cover to hold a +5 bonus with Frankford and Great Northeast worries me a lot. Solutions can include reducing Northeast's bonus to +2 and opening up Frankford more, such as a connection between Juniata and Wissinoming.

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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/29 pg 7

Postby isaiah40 on Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:03 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:I agree with isaiah, this is looking very good! I'd argue that South Philly should be +3, though. 3 borders and 5 territories sounds exactly like Africa from Classic, and Africa is in the middle of everything ;)


I wouldn't say exactly since you have to defend (if I remember correctly) against 5 territories. Here you only have 2 to defend against, so I think the +2 is good, though +3 would be bad either.

Another thing: I worry that Fox Chase will be a major chokepoint. Considering that it and the T-P bridge (and that would be covered partially by the New Jersey toll, too) are all you'd have to cover to hold a +5 bonus with Frankford and Great Northeast worries me a lot. Solutions can include reducing Northeast's bonus to +2 and opening up Frankford more, such as a connection between Juniata and Wissinoming.


I agree with Sully here. Personally I would lean towards adding in another connection between Bridesburg and Port Richmond. Though that may mean Northern Liberties value may have to change. But I think it can stay where it is.
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/29 pg 7

Postby RedBaron0 on Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:58 pm

I think the solution that takes care of both things guys would be to take a territory out of the GNE and put it into Frankford and adding a connection between Frankford and Northern Liberties. This way the reverse is now true, GNE become a 2 bonus and Frankford a 3 bonus, and harder to defend the whole of NE Philly for a +5 bonus. I'll toss the numbers into the calculator and make sure it isn't too much of a stretch.... I get the feeling Frankford might end up as a +4 bonus then, in which case I might just move a second territory from GNE to Frankford and have GNE be a 4 territory +2 bonus.

That being said, I worry that the map is becoming a "start on the outside and work your way in" map where the "best" bonuses to hold are SW Philly, GNE, and Germantown, and difficult ones are in the center. Still may not be a major issue though, tell me what you guys think!
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/31 pg 8

Postby MarshalNey on Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:27 pm

SW Philly should stay at +2 I think- making it a +3 when compared with Germantown doesn't look right.

RedBaron0 wrote:I think the solution that takes care of both things guys would be to take a territory out of the GNE and put it into Frankford and adding a connection between Frankford and Northern Liberties. This way the reverse is now true, GNE become a 2 bonus and Frankford a 3 bonus, and harder to defend the whole of NE Philly for a +5 bonus. I'll toss the numbers into the calculator and make sure it isn't too much of a stretch.... I get the feeling Frankford might end up as a +4 bonus then, in which case I might just move a second territory from GNE to Frankford and have GNE be a 4 territory +2 bonus.


Sully and Isaiah brought up a good points, and I think that adding a border region to Frankford is the best solution. If you add a connection between Wissinoming and Juniata, it shouldn't significantly impact Northern Liberties defenses.

Taking a region from the Great NE and moving it to Frankford also helps, but switching 2 regions I think would make the Great NE too much of an early-game buster for whomever steals it. At 4 regions, the Great NE is much easier to take in the 1st or 2nd round (say one gets 2 or 3 of the regions on the drop) and then hold for the rest of the game. It would become the focus of the map, much like Australia in Classic.

RedBaron0 wrote:That being said, I worry that the map is becoming a "start on the outside and work your way in" map where the "best" bonuses to hold are SW Philly, GNE, and Germantown, and difficult ones are in the center. Still may not be a major issue though, tell me what you guys think!


Well, see above about the Great NE :) Other than that, I think that none of the bonuses are unrealistic to take or defend- except for Center City- so that different drops will offer different possibilities each game.

If you want to open the map up a bit more, you could reduce the Bridge neutrals to 2 and/or reduce the Tolls to killer neutral 2 or 3. I don't think that would make the Bridge bonus too easy to take- you'd still have to kill off 6 troops for a +2, and 'strand' an occupying troop for each.

In any case, this map looks close to wrapping up the gameplay. Sticky time.

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Re: Philadelphia - updated 1/31 pg 8

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:04 pm

Sorry for the nitpicking, but it's "Palmyra" not "Palmayra."

Thanks.

TGD (excited Philadelphia resident!)
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 2/2 pg 8

Postby RedBaron0 on Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:01 pm

Click image to enlarge.
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Click image to enlarge.
image


I gotta roll for work, quick go over the changes:

Fixed Palmyra ;)
Moved a territory from GNE to Frankford (Mayfair)
Frankford and South Philly at 3
Bridges to remain at 3 neutral
and tolls at a 4 killer nuetral
Moved the Ben Franklin Bridge up to connect to Spring Garden, more accurate connection and makes Center City a little easier to hold

Since South Philly and Frankford are virtually identical (5 territories, defend 3) I figured to make them the same, and with the neutral cover on the bridges I felt a bonus of 3 was more reasonable.

Gotta run, discuss!
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Re: Philadelphia - updated 2/2 pg 8

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:13 pm

Looks, scrumptious! I think all the neutrals could be knocked down by 1. 2 a piece for the bridges, 3 for the toll.
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