Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby MrBenn on Mon May 02, 2011 10:05 am

The xml has been updated. Lets see how things are now ;)
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby KraphtOne on Mon May 02, 2011 10:18 am

was going to post that i only have 1 pitcher now, but apparently that's what you're going for... which makes no sense... but oh well guess i don't have much use for the "better roll well on your first try" baseball map anymore... gl w/that
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby mr. CD on Mon May 02, 2011 2:28 pm

Haven't played it that much yet, but as far as I see it there is absolutely no reason to move out before the opponent does at the moment. (or at least in 1v1)
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby osujacket on Mon May 02, 2011 8:26 pm

IVe played this map alot of times in 1v1. I liked the one with 12 one with 5 and one with 5 best. You have options on how much you can move where to place them. That was great.

Only getting one pitcher is horrible. You better never move first, the entire game is decided on one roll. The home run is taken out of play. I wont continue to play this one the way it is now.

I really really hope you consider changing it back.

Please Please Please...
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby Evil DIMwit on Mon May 02, 2011 9:12 pm

osujacket wrote:IVe played this map alot of times in 1v1. I liked the one with 12 one with 5 and one with 5 best. You have options on how much you can move where to place them. That was great.

Only getting one pitcher is horrible. You better never first first the way it is as the entire game is decided on one roll. The home run is taken out of play. I wont continue to play this one on one the way it is now.

I really really hope you consider changing it back.

Please Please Please...


You know, it hadn't occurred to me, but other than the fact that there's no warning or thematic justification for it, having the pitchers arranged that way for 2-player games doesn't sound so bad.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby Gormbroc on Mon May 02, 2011 9:44 pm

Definitely an issue with the pitchers. Check this game: Game 8963094. In round nine, 3 players left. Blue has a HR but no other territs, and is trapped. Yellow is the only one with a pitcher left. If yellow takes the other HR, then neither Blue nor Red can win the game because neither will be able to attack Yellow's HR. If Red eliminates Yellow, then Blue and Red stalemate since Red can't attack Blue's HR.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby drunkmonkey on Mon May 02, 2011 9:54 pm

Gormbroc wrote:Definitely an issue with the pitchers. Check this game: Game 8963094. In round nine, 3 players left. Blue has a HR but no other territs, and is trapped. Yellow is the only one with a pitcher left. If yellow takes the other HR, then neither Blue nor Red can win the game because neither will be able to attack Yellow's HR. If Red eliminates Yellow, then Blue and Red stalemate since Red can't attack Blue's HR.


Hold all bases to win.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby gStrong on Fri May 06, 2011 2:33 pm

mr. CD wrote:Haven't played it that much yet, but as far as I see it there is absolutely no reason to move out before the opponent does at the moment. (or at least in 1v1)


My current opponent seems to have a sure fire win strategy in 1v1 but his computer crashed when I took my turn.

We built up to 75 on the pitcher and he went out and took all the bases. I'm guessing he waited for me to start thensince it was freestyle he would start at the same time (not sure how yet) amd he would wim by holding the objective.

Only works with freestyle but it is a way to win 1v1
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby AgentSmith88 on Sun May 08, 2011 8:18 pm

gStrong wrote:
mr. CD wrote:Haven't played it that much yet, but as far as I see it there is absolutely no reason to move out before the opponent does at the moment. (or at least in 1v1)


My current opponent seems to have a sure fire win strategy in 1v1 but his computer crashed when I took my turn.

We built up to 75 on the pitcher and he went out and took all the bases. I'm guessing he waited for me to start thensince it was freestyle he would start at the same time (not sure how yet) amd he would wim by holding the objective.

Only works with freestyle but it is a way to win 1v1


don't play 1v1 freestyle and you won't have to worry about it.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby Wolffystyle on Tue May 10, 2011 9:55 am

Hi, I just spent 30 minutes constructing an argument for beginning with as many pitchers as would fit (4 each for 1v1 games and 2 each for doubles, 3-player and 4-player games) but then firefox crashed.

Would you believe me that I constructed a very sound argument in regards to both gameplay and 'thematic elements' as Evil DIMwit was concerned about?

If my plea is not enough I will return back to this thread later to reconstruct that very argument.

But in short, I agree with osujacket and believe that beginning with only 1 pitcher leaves this map up to luck of the dice which is not what baseball is about. Baseball is deeply intertwined with strategy, relief and in playing your opponent.

Leaving a starting position of 1 pitcher makes this map all too similar to St. Patrick's Day map and will leave this (great) map to rot unplayed.

----
edit: additional starting pitchers would only add to the thematic element as being a manager's 'bullpen' and these pitchers, like in baseball, would come in relief when a 'starter' is down.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby carlpgoodrich on Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 am

Wolffystyle wrote:Hi, I just spent 30 minutes constructing an argument for beginning with as many pitchers as would fit (4 each for 1v1 games and 2 each for doubles, 3-player and 4-player games) but then firefox crashed.

Would you believe me that I constructed a very sound argument in regards to both gameplay and 'thematic elements' as Evil DIMwit was concerned about?

If my plea is not enough I will return back to this thread later to reconstruct that very argument.

But in short, I agree with osujacket and believe that beginning with only 1 pitcher leaves this map up to luck of the dice which is not what baseball is about. Baseball is deeply intertwined with strategy, relief and in playing your opponent.

Leaving a starting position of 1 pitcher makes this map all too similar to St. Patrick's Day map and will leave this (great) map to rot unplayed.

----
edit: additional starting pitchers would only add to the thematic element as being a manager's 'bullpen' and these pitchers, like in baseball, would come in relief when a 'starter' is down.


First, luck is a HUGE part of baseball. More so than any other sport I can think of. In both baseball and most CC maps, taking luck into account is part of the strategy and is one of the reasons both games are so great. That being said, if the games are being decided entirely by luck, then I guess a change should be made. I guess my problem is that every 1v1 game I've ever played on any map has been decided entirely by luck, which is why I don't play them.

However, I don't think you can have a player start with 4 pitchers because then he'll have 39 troops to reinforce at the end of his first round, making it impossible to break whatever he has captured. I think a decent compromise might be the "mistake" xml that was up for a few days, where all the pitchers are given out but each player only gets one with 12, the others have 3. That way the autodeploy (or relief as you put it) is more significant for 2-4 player games, offsetting first round luck, but the number of troops you can use to reinforce on your first turn is much less. Actually, having written that, there would still be 12 troops to reinforce in 1v1. Maybe making the additional pitchers start with just 1 would be best (so there would be 6 reinforceable troops).
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby Wolffystyle on Tue May 10, 2011 12:14 pm

Yes, yes, Carl, you're absolutely right. 33 reinforceable troops is monstrous in an unlimited reinforcement game and would be too much. I am currently playing in one adjacent game (which would make it a better game).

Baseball, like any sport or game requires luck. But I will argue that the outcome of Baseball compared to most major sports can be affected greatest by the strategy, match-ups and game-time managerial calls. A few quick examples for non-baseball fans are:

Pitcher-Batter match-ups (which side of the plate do you hit from, throw to or from the mound)
Defensive alignments (Infield in or out, outfield in or out, shifts)
Hitting direction (pull the ball or push the ball)
Hitting strength (bunt or punt, sac fly or move the runner with an well-placed infield ball)
Substitutions (Change a pitcher, fielder, batter or runner)
Moving the runner (advance the runner, take the out, intentionally walk a player for a force-out..)
yada yada yada

Without getting much farther into the dynamics of the sport, I will conclude by saying that Baseball is a sport heavily impacted by game-time decisions and ability to make adjustments later in the game.

Sure, you're right, a large amount of luck plays into baseball. The very best hitters only get a hit about one-third of the time and managers can sometime only pray that it comes at the right moment. But moving the runner, defensive shifts and forcing plays make huge impacts to the percentages that baseball strategy is build around. Though a great player hits .333 doesn't take into account his working the pitcher, his over .400 on base percentage or in him swinging for and reaching the fences (home run) when the team most needs it.

Diminishing the "commander's" ability to control only one element (one pitcher) goes directly against the "manager's" power in the game of baseball.

I am not suggesting a complete overhaul of gameplay (or maybe I am) but I do ask that the "commander" have control of more than one pitcher.

Also. In the game, the pitcher may throw to one of his infielders to attempt a pickoff. I do believe that this issue of being able to reinforce 33 troops at the end of round one gets countered by the pitcher's ability to throw to (attack at) a player on his team. Though this has most likely been discussed and we're already to the beta map. Maybe my push is a little too late.

Wolffy~
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby natty dread on Tue May 10, 2011 12:19 pm

I think gameplay considerations should be first priority in this situation. The number of starting pitchers should be decided based on what works for the gameplay.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby Wolffystyle on Tue May 10, 2011 12:34 pm

natty_dread wrote:I think gameplay considerations should be first priority in this situation. The number of starting pitchers should be decided based on what works for the gameplay.

I'm trying to give both a gameplay and 'spirit of the game' reasoning to why commanders should start with more than 1 pitcher when available.

I'm only using 1v1 as a example and everyone who says "don't play 1v1" needs realize that a map should be accessible to all.

Gameplay: As it sits, I agree with mr. CD. There is no reason to move out first and 1v1 games will be subject to stalls, boring cold-war scenarios until one player confidently has enough to go from babe to mound to pitcher with a large enough stack.

Now, I've only played the beta version once but the game was already over by round 2. Game 9035447. My buddy, Ingenio, moved out round 2 and took a base. He is rather intelligent and left a string of 2s for defense to challenge me (2,2,2,and whatever he had left after his assaults) as I came back to counter his move. His defenses succumbed. But the important note is that if you come from the school of "attacking dice are better than defensive dice" and you always assault large stacks than defend large stacks (think City Mogul) advantage will always go to he who waits and assaults his player rather than he who moves and assaults neutral.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby Evil DIMwit on Tue May 10, 2011 12:42 pm

natty_dread wrote:I think gameplay considerations should be first priority in this situation. The number of starting pitchers should be decided based on what works for the gameplay.


That's my tendency as well. I'm willing to change the starting pitchers back to the 'mistake compromise'; my only issue with that is that players are going to get confused as to why the game is set up that way.

If 12, 5, and 5 troops are too much for the pitcher in 1v1s, then it's possible to code three of the pitchers neutral, so that players start with 12 and 5 each for 1v1, and then only have one pitcher each for 3 and 4 player games. I don't know that that's the best idea.

Another option is to give a maximum of 2 pitchers per game, and to reduce all the starting positions by a bit, say 2 troops. It would slow down 5+ player games a bit, but now 2-4 player games would start with only 22 reinforceable troops per player.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby natty dread on Tue May 10, 2011 12:47 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote:Another option is to give a maximum of 2 pitchers per game, and to reduce all the starting positions by a bit, say 2 troops. It would slow down 5+ player games a bit, but now 2-4 player games would start with only 22 reinforceable troops per player.


I like this idea.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby osujacket on Tue May 10, 2011 12:50 pm

Think of it is starting pitcher vs bull pen pitcher.

Starting pitcher can go 9 innings so he gets 9 armies..
Middle relievers can go 5 so they start with 5 armies.
Closers get 1 so he starts with one army.

Fits into the mold of the game :)
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby Wolffystyle on Tue May 10, 2011 1:02 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote:
natty_dread wrote:I think gameplay considerations should be first priority in this situation. The number of starting pitchers should be decided based on what works for the gameplay.


That's my tendency as well. I'm willing to change the starting pitchers back to the 'mistake compromise'; my only issue with that is that players are going to get confused as to why the game is set up that way.

The justification is that your "relief pitchers" do not have as much stamina or endurance as a starting pitcher. Your main pitcher usually takes you 7+- 2 innings whereas your pitchers in relief will only take you 1,2 or 3 innings max. (or 5 as osujacket says)...

Evil DIMwit wrote:If 12, 5, and 5 troops are too much for the pitcher in 1v1s, then it's possible to code three of the pitchers neutral, so that players start with 12 and 5 each for 1v1, and then only have one pitcher each for 3 and 4 player games. I don't know that that's the best idea.

Let's look at unlimited: 15 takes Babe with 13 left and then takes an infield ball and an infield region and reinforces all to there (10+4+4=18). Player B follows player A's path but has to take another infield and has 15 v 1,1,1,18 ( I cant get my assault odds up but I am guessing player A ends with around 5 or 6 left on average. Player B forts 4 and 4 to his infield region.

Round 2: Player A drops 3 on a pitcher and takes babe and ball again and can hit Player B's 9 or 10 troop infield with his 6 and with 4 from his pitcher route. Okay now anything can happen round 2 and beyond.

Evil DIMwit wrote:Another option is to give a maximum of 2 pitchers per game, and to reduce all the starting positions by a bit, say 2 troops. It would slow down 5+ player games a bit, but now 2-4 player games would start with only 22 reinforceable troops per player.


I don't get this. Sorry.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby carlpgoodrich on Tue May 10, 2011 1:28 pm

natty_dread wrote:
Evil DIMwit wrote:Another option is to give a maximum of 2 pitchers per game, and to reduce all the starting positions by a bit, say 2 troops. It would slow down 5+ player games a bit, but now 2-4 player games would start with only 22 reinforceable troops per player.


I like this idea.

So far I haven't heard anyone complain about 5+ player games. I would be very careful about changing what seems to be working.

Also, for everyone who says you can't win 1v1 when you attack first, why don't you just leave some troops on your pitcher? Attack Babe, a baseball and one territory, while leaving x troops on your pitcher. The other person (in a foggy game) won't know how many you left, and won't know until he has already committed a certain number of troops to attacking. If you make x large, then you get to do the attacking next turn. Now, I haven't done this (I don't usually play 1v1), but maybe a different strategy makes this a moot point.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby Evil DIMwit on Wed May 11, 2011 1:00 am

I can buy the relief pitcher thematic argument.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed May 11, 2011 9:44 pm

have not followed the discussion so far, sorry

I am sure this latest change makes it better for multiple player play. However, I think the earlier version (but where the 2 homes could not attack each other directly) were better for 1 vs 1 play.

Not saying you should change the map back, but it might be useful to consider for future maps.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby neanderpaul14 on Mon May 16, 2011 11:58 pm

Does everyone realize if this map is played just right/wrong it can wind up in a total stalemate with only the 2 Homeruns being held by 2 players????
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby greenoaks on Tue May 17, 2011 12:25 am

neanderpaul14 wrote:Does everyone realize if this map is played just right/wrong it can wind up in a total stalemate with only the 2 Homeruns being held by 2 players????

how would that become possible ?
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby Evil DIMwit on Tue May 17, 2011 1:39 am

greenoaks wrote:
neanderpaul14 wrote:Does everyone realize if this map is played just right/wrong it can wind up in a total stalemate with only the 2 Homeruns being held by 2 players????

how would that become possible ?

You'd have to be playing Nuclear and really luck out with the spoils to have three or fewer non-homerun territories and have every one of them nuked. Not likely to happen, though.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed May 18, 2011 11:40 am

neanderpaul14 wrote:Does everyone realize if this map is played just right/wrong it can wind up in a total stalemate with only the 2 Homeruns being held by 2 players????

Actually, it can be a stalemate from the very start.

The first person to attack instantlt has a disadvantage, unless maybe they get very lucky and the opponent does not.

I mean, to start, you have to take out at least Babe, then either a ball or homerun, either way, then next player now has an easier path... unless you are dumb enough to leave all your armies on the batter or a ball. (leaving some really doesn't solve this problem because you cannot take enough bonuses to make up for the lost armies).

I am not sure how to solve this. Maybe there needs to be some kind of penalty if you don't bat or such? I think this map has real potential.

I misplayed here (did not intend to attack homerun), but this is an example
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I took out second base, was down to 6 armies. My opponent came, had 17 standing. My only real chance was to try to take him out with my 5.
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