Dark Continent (Colonial Africa) [Quenched]

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Re: Colonial Africa

Postby The Bison King on Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:58 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:You forgot to have Egypt striped in the mini map.

I am SOOO far from even pretending like these represent the final graphics. Just trying to iron out the fundamentals before I draw up a map I'll have to change a shit ton.
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Re: Colonial Africa

Postby The Bison King on Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:03 pm

Ok guy's I think it's about time to dig this one back up. I'll get seriously started on this once again, when one or both of my Beta maps get quenched.

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Re: Colonial Africa

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:07 pm

Sweet beans. I say go for it.
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Re: Colonial Africa

Postby theBastard on Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:30 am

the map looks fine. also 8 starting positions as European countries (+Turkey) sounds good.

btw, for DJ Teflon - my quick attempt about theme you like viewtopic.php?f=63&t=112743
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Re: Colonial Africa (The Bison King)

Postby The Bison King on Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:22 pm

Click image to enlarge.
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Ok, so the emergence of another Colonial Africa Thread has encouraged me to get serious about this map. Here you can see I updated this with territory names. I also added impassables and rearranged territories a bit.

I left the part of the West coast (wort of the Gold Coast Area) unlabeled because I'm still debating how to handle that region.

I could either

-just give it France (historically inaccurate, but simplified)

-Give Portugal, Spain, Britain, and Germany a single territory along the coast but give them no bonus value.

-Do the above but assign it a group bonus value independent of Colonial Powers

-I could give each Colonial power a territory along the coast that connects to the homeland.


(ALSO for now I'm just going to work with these crummy graphics so that I can change things around easier. The real graphics will come much later)
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Re: Colonial Africa (The Bison King)

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:14 pm

Ah man, i know I was supposed to help with this but I work like 60 hours a week lately and haven't had the time.

Anyway, here's my philosophy with making a historical map: You want a player to have some freedom in a historical map to play with the historical maybes and what ifs, and not to get stuck on strict historical template of a time period. At the same time, you don't want to delve into historical fantasy. So its a dangerous balance. Also, you need to have an ideal setting and round... when will this map reflect the historical situation you are portraying? I do all my maps presuming flat or no spoils and the bonuses are tooled to influence a player to re-create something close to the historical states depicted... for example, France is rather easily defended thus making France a player, as she was, during the German Wars of Unification. Her bonus value also reflects her power during the wars.. so essentially a player won't win on France alone, she needs to play aggressive inside Germany proper to win (thus doing the opposite of France's historical mistake).

All in all, I'd say you've got a good start and it won't be much to get it where it needs to be.

I like how the bonus system works, though really, I think there ought to be a sort of duel colony option for some of the places that changed hands, much like you've used with Egypt. Places like the German colonies could be duel colonies with Britain, Cameroon with France. This way, it gives a player to sort of build a little more like piece by piece and grow his empire. It also inclines players to desire Britain and France as there are more options available. This makes sense because Britain and France dominated the continent.

Ideally, you want Europe to be static and the conflict and movement to primarily occur in Africa... given its ability to yield easy and quick bonuses, I'd say you'll achieve this pretty easily. Though I'd recommend the European powers and Turkey be starting positions and deploy higher, say 5, to encourage static gameplay up north. It will be a good and true to history dynamic to have Europe concerned about the balance between continental and colonial obligations. You'll get some cool World War scenarios where if Germany knocks out France and France strikes back from her colonies, ect. I hope this map will be considered for WWI and WWII tournaments as well.

The only major gameplay element that I think you ought to add is a European one way attack on at least one of their major colonies. I'm thinking Britain to SA, Germany to German East Africa, Belgium to Congo, and Portugal to Angola. This way you get the Europeans able to land and conquer Africa, but Africans stuck in Africa... true to history and also makes some of the more harder to achieve bonuses, such as Portugal, easier to achieve. Maybe, even consider killer neutral ocean territories, giving European players a chance to make landings, ect. In fact, I think killer neutral sea territories would really liven up the gameplay.

Britain
And here's a list of some revisions you ought to consider:
Put in Zululand instead of Basutoland
Bechuanaland was South Rhodesisa.
Anglo-Egyptian Sudan ought to be one colony, as it was, and keep the duality.
There's better names for North and South Nigeria... but I'm at a loss... stay tuned.

France
You've got to put in the modern Algeria and call it Algeria... it was considered part of France proper and the primary French colony... scoot Tunisia to its place.
Equatorial Africa ought to be a duel colony with Germany... it was traded for Germany being ok with French Morocco.

Spain, Portugal, germany and Italy look ok save for their names.

Belgium might need a little more easily defended African territory, their weakness is their continental position.

For the two African neutrals... you might want to consider a duel bonus that only rewards with Italy and Italian Horn of Africa with Ethiopia and France with French Africa and Morocco.

The European neutrals... I don't like them. I'd be in favor of ditching them completely and bordering Italy with Germany. Turkey's threats came via through its colonies (WWI Mesopotamia and Palestine) and not through land attacks in itself (Salonika and Gallipoli). Given Turkey's proximity to Africa, I'd say there is sufficient threat to its power without bordering the European powers via the continent.

As for West Africa... I think you ought to add it in and put the labels in the sea. Guinea-Bissau, Gold Coast (especially with the Asanti wars there), Gold Coast, Ivory Coast... these would make great neutral starters and +1 bonuses. This reflects their richness in resources though precarious defensive position. It also makes a great way to increase a player's bonus a little by a quick land grab.

Lastly... impassables. I'd say increase them.
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Re: Colonial Africa (The Bison King)

Postby theBastard on Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:25 am

agreed with most of Helix´s notices.

and here some my ideas:
1, give more "grey" areas to Africa. if this map is from early 1800 there were much more independent (not colonised areas as desert, jungle).
2, to the 1879 was Ottamans in Egypt and in Libya. they never hold Arabia, just Yemen, part of Oman and only stripe on the west coast of Arabia from Palestine to Yemen. also they lost Balkans only in 1879. so Ottomans could have bonus for Asia as now, maybe with Balkans (or +1 for Balkans), and bonus for African colonies (which could be overlap bonuses - Egypt for England, Libya for Italy)
3, I like Helix´s idea about Europe as players base.

also I like your idea about double bonus with European homeland, but there is needed to pulish routes to Europe, I think.

look here http://www.brazza.culture.fr/en/afrique ... varch1.htm
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Re: Colonial Africa (The Bison King)

Postby The Bison King on Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:59 am

To Industrial Helix- I read through your novel last night and you have a lot of great suggestions. I'm going probably going to be too busy most of the weekend to give a proper response so stay tuned. I definitely like the idea of adding more split bonuses and European 1 way attacks.

To The Bastard- I think you're placing the map a little earlier than it really is. This will actually be circa 1914.
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Re: Colonial Africa (The Bison King)

Postby theBastard on Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:33 am

[quote="The Bison King"
To The Bastard- I think you're placing the map a little earlier than it really is. This will actually be circa 1914.[/quote]

hm, I though that you have meant era from 1800´s. than it changes things... I will look at this from another view :lol:
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Re: Colonial Africa (The Bison King)

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:44 am

Take your time, but just as fair warning... you're going to have to have a solid idea of the gameplay before it moves on the gameplay workshop as I want to keep an eye on the development.

Also, have you given any thought to graphics yet?
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Re: Colonial Africa (The Bison King)

Postby The Bison King on Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:46 pm

Take your time, but just as fair warning... you're going to have to have a solid idea of the gameplay before it moves on the gameplay workshop as I want to keep an eye on the development.


It's already a solid idea, but there is a lot of room for tweaking.

Also, have you given any thought to graphics yet?

Yes, (a lot actually) but I'm not going to worry about that till way later.
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Re: Colonial Africa (The Bison King)

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:39 pm

This is what I would call an ambiguous idea... since you're going to have a medium complex map, I want want it to be as clear as possible before I kick it upstairs.
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Re: Colonial Africa (The Bison King)

Postby Teflon Kris on Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:07 am

Add my voice to the calls for gameplay features to give some of the european homelands easier to access to the south. At the moment spain and its colonies looks like the most realistic double-bonus that everyone will be fighting for, plus Italy.

Helix's idea for one-way attacks and/or killer neutral seas would be great.
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Re: Colonial Africa (The Bison King)

Postby The Bison King on Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:47 pm

I'll work on an update tomorrow.
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Re: Colonial Africa (The Bison King)

Postby The Bison King on Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:16 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image


I like how the bonus system works, though really, I think there ought to be a sort of duel colony option for some of the places that changed hands, much like you've used with Egypt. Places like the German colonies could be duel colonies with Britain, Cameroon with France. This way, it gives a player to sort of build a little more like piece by piece and grow his empire. It also inclines players to desire Britain and France as there are more options available. This makes sense because Britain and France dominated the continent.

Accepted, I think this is a great idea. The are similar mechanics to this in Napoleonic Europe and the work beautifully there.

deally, you want Europe to be static and the conflict and movement to primarily occur in Africa... given its ability to yield easy and quick bonuses

Absolutely correct.

Though I'd recommend the European powers and Turkey be starting positions and deploy higher, say 5, to encourage static gameplay up north. It will be a good and true to history dynamic to have Europe concerned about the balance between continental and colonial obligations

If we can do this I'd be in favor of starting the European start positions with 5 rather than the regular 3. I'm also considering giving all Colonial powers a +1 auto deploy, but we can debate the merits of this later in gameplay.

The only major gameplay element that I think you ought to add is a European one way attack on at least one of their major colonies. I'm thinking Britain to SA, Germany to German East Africa, Belgium to Congo, and Portugal to Angola. This way you get the Europeans able to land and conquer Africa, but Africans stuck in Africa... true to history and also makes some of the more harder to achieve bonuses, such as Portugal, easier to achieve. Maybe, even consider killer neutral ocean territories, giving European players a chance to make landings, ect. In fact, I think killer neutral sea territories would really liven up the gameplay.

Accepted, I added a Naval superiority territory. It's a killer neutral that any Colonial power can take. From Naval Superiority you can attack and conquer a large number of territories on the west coast.

And here's a list of some revisions you ought to consider:
Put in Zululand instead of Basutoland
Bechuanaland was South Rhodesisa.

accepted, accepted

Anglo-Egyptian Sudan ought to be one colony, as it was, and keep the duality.

I left them spilt because it would be too large of a territory otherwise, and would be way too effective of an eastern choke point, but I took the "Egyptian" out of the name.

You've got to put in the modern Algeria and call it Algeria... it was considered part of France proper and the primary French colony... scoot Tunisia to its place.
Equatorial Africa ought to be a duel colony with Germany... it was traded for Germany being ok with French Morocco.

accepted, accepted.

Belgium might need a little more easily defended African territory, their weakness is their continental position.

Or a higher bonus pay out.

or the two African neutrals... you might want to consider a duel bonus that only rewards with Italy and Italian Horn of Africa with Ethiopia and France with French Africa and Morocco.

I might do something like that, I'm not really sure how that would work yet since the neutrals don't yield a bonus. Unless adding the neutrals simply increased the bonus worth for the colonial power.

The European neutrals... I don't like them. I'd be in favor of ditching them completely and bordering Italy with Germany. Turkey's threats came via through its colonies (WWI Mesopotamia and Palestine) and not through land attacks in itself (Salonika and Gallipoli). Given Turkey's proximity to Africa, I'd say there is sufficient threat to its power without bordering the European powers via the continent.

For now Declined. I think Europe needs a back door entrance. It also keeps Turkey from being so easily defended.

As for West Africa... I think you ought to add it in and put the labels in the sea. Guinea-Bissau, Gold Coast (especially with the Asanti wars there), Gold Coast, Ivory Coast... these would make great neutral starters and +1 bonuses. This reflects their richness in resources though precarious defensive position. It also makes a great way to increase a player's bonus a little by a quick land grab.

Accepted. The tricky part is the Ivory coast since it belongs to France, but I want it to be it's own bonus. A simple note in the legend should explain it well enough but inevitably a lot of people just skip over that kind of thing and get confused any way, but I can't be held accountable for that.

Lastly... impassables. I'd say increase them

I probably will.
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Re: Colonial Africa (The Bison King)

Postby vinaya on Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:16 am

looks interesting. :roll:

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Re: Colonial Africa (The Bison King)

Postby The Bison King on Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:58 am

vinaya wrote:looks interesting. :roll:

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:-s excuse me, but what?



I'd call you an obvious troll multi but I don't know what this is even?
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Re: Colonial Africa (The Bison King)

Postby The Bison King on Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:42 am

Does anyone else have anything to add before this goes to gameplay?
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Re: Colonial Africa (The Bison King)

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:13 am

Ah crap, my apologies as I did not see the updated version. Everything looks good for the GP workshop by me, but obviously there you're going to have to work out a bunch of stuff. Names are not great, but you've got time and I'll see what I can do.

On a side note, Zululand was more a coastal province off to the eastern side of South Africa... it bordered Mozambique as well. And speaking of South Africa, maybe split it in two between the Boer republics and the British Capetown?

Also, if you have room, a Mediterranean/Suez Canal/Red Sea Naval Superiority might be pretty cool as well.

Anyway, let me run it by Tack and hopefully this map will move today.
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Re: Colonial Africa (The Bison King)

Postby TaCktiX on Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:44 pm

The overall idea is solid and there's a good foundation for Gameplay. I'd say my only complaint is the relative mess that the connecting lines and impassables look like. I realize that you do a watercolor draft with a near-finished graphical look, but if you could make the lines cleaner I'm cool with it rolling on into the Gameplay Workshop.
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Re: Colonial Africa (The Bison King)

Postby theBastard on Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:39 am

the connection between Europe and Africe is still unbalanced. what about to do Naval Superiority also in Mediteraean See, these could revert to neutral and one way attack from Europe to Africa and from Europe to Europe. and do all borders in Europe imassable...
if the European bases will be starting points (also starting points)...
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Re: Colonial Africa (The Bison King)

Postby The Bison King on Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:28 am

TaCktiX wrote:The overall idea is solid and there's a good foundation for Gameplay. I'd say my only complaint is the relative mess that the connecting lines and impassables look like. I realize that you do a watercolor draft with a near-finished graphical look, but if you could make the lines cleaner I'm cool with it rolling on into the Gameplay Workshop.

Wait seriously? this is being held back because of line cleanliness? As long as you can tell what attacks what, that's all that matters at this point, right? what parts specifically are causing confusion for you?

theBastard wrote:the connection between Europe and Africe is still unbalanced. what about to do Naval Superiority also in Mediteraean See, these could revert to neutral and one way attack from Europe to Africa and from Europe to Europe. and do all borders in Europe imassable...
if the European bases will be starting points (also starting points)...


A fair point but I don't think another Naval Superiority is the answer. I think maybe South Africa having a 2 way connection with Great Britain would be good.

Also the European terts. will be start positions but they will not be your sole start position. You will also be assigned random African regions.
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Re: Colonial Africa (The Bison King)

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:37 pm

I think Tack just wants and idea of the graphic direction you plan on taking this. You don't have to do a full blown watercolor, but something that conveys the feel of what the map will look like.
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Re: Colonial Africa (The Bison King)

Postby The Bison King on Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:30 pm

looking at my other maps should give you a pretty good idea of what to expect.

I'm not making a 3rd "sample" version of the map, I don't have that kind of time any more. There will be this flexible, easily modified map to hammer out gameplay, and then when we get to graphics I'm going to create a very large (25x30ish) Water color version. I'll import that to photoshop where I'll make final adjustments on the final version.
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Re: Colonial Africa (The Bison King)

Postby Joodoo on Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:47 am

I think it might be symbolic if you include Liberia, as it's one of the few countries that remained independent during colonialism on the continent (Ethiopia being the other one, and I've seen you've had it up there already.
I'm not sure about the Middle East part of the map, are they part of the "Scramble for Africa" too?
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