CLASSIC CITIES: Sydney [Quenched]

[cairnswk]

With the new layout above,

I count 72 territs...
less 6 Neutrals on 3 or less regions:
La Perouse
Marrickville
Sydney
Narrabeen
Blue Mtns N.P.
and Marramarra N.P. North
= 66 (Golden number) ?

[pamoa]

66 is acceptable
but 71 is better
maybe you should code all those 3 territories regions as starting position
having so much territories neutral at the start is always a pity on a "normal" gameplay map

[cairnswk]

66 is acceptable
but 71 is better
maybe you should code all those 3 territories regions as starting position
having so much territories neutral at the start is always a pity on a "normal" gameplay map

Would it then have classic gameplay?

[pamoa]

coding them as starting position is only there to ensure no drop bonus
but the gameplay is perfectly normal

[nolefan5311]

I've run the bonus spreadsheet on the latest version of the map and this is what I came up with.

The bonus for SE Suburbs needs to be reduced from 4 to 3.

The bonus for Southern Beaches needs to be reduced from 2 to 1. There's only 1 region (2 attack points) to defend.

The bonus for Northern Beaches needs to be reduced by at least 1, possibly 2. You might also want to extend the border of Palm Beach and Kuringal all the way so they meet. It's slightly confusing how they border right now.

National Parks needs to be reduced from 4 to 3.

Also, you may wish to add an impassable (probably some of those mountains) between Leura and Jamison Valley (it's incorrectly spelled on the map, I've seen it spelled Jamison Valley and Jamieson Valley, but not the way you have it). The spreadsheet is suggesting that bonus be a +3, but ian is hesitant to increase it, so adding the impassable between Leura and Jamison Valley would solve that problem.

And let me know what you want to do about coding some of those positions as starting neutrals, but in all likelihood, we're going to suggest it to you anyway once I've run the bonus drop spreadsheet. Makes it easier on me to know that the following continents automatically won't be dropped bonuses, and will probably make it easier on you since it appears you're already willing to code these start positions as neutral:

Eastern Suburbs (La Perouse, though you will probably need to change this to Bondi)
SE Suburbs (Marrickville)
Sydney - City
Northern Beaches (Narrabeen)
Blue Mountains National Park - (bonus of same name)
National Parks - Marramarra N.P North

[chapcrap]

The latest update is good for seeing the bonuses better. I'm still not the biggest fan of the raised numbers that are the same color as their background. But, it is better.

I think the whole background on the left would be better if it wasn't that shade of blue/green. Perhaps you can have something that represents Syndey being the background in that section.

[cairnswk]

I've run the bonus spreadsheet on the latest version of the map and this is what I came up with.

The bonus for SE Suburbs needs to be reduced from 4 to 3.

The bonus for Southern Beaches needs to be reduced from 2 to 1. There's only 1 region (2 attack points) to defend.

The bonus for Northern Beaches needs to be reduced by at least 1, possibly 2. You might also want to extend the border of Palm Beach and Kuringal all the way so they meet. It's slightly confusing how they border right now.

National Parks needs to be reduced from 4 to 3.

Done.

Also, you may wish to add an impassable (probably some of those mountains) between Leura and Jamison Valley (it's incorrectly spelled on the map, I've seen it spelled Jamison Valley and Jamieson Valley, but not the way you have it). The spreadsheet is suggesting that bonus be a +3, but ian is hesitant to increase it, so adding the impassable between Leura and Jamison Valley would solve that problem.

yes there are mountains which Leura sits atop and there is a cable car into the Jamison Valley.
However, i have created mountains to make the Jamison Valley look like there is a valley there, but i'm not in favour of the impassable mountains there, so have created a link between the dam territory and Jamison Valley so it is easier to assault in there, and the impassable is now between Jamison Valley and Blue Mnts N.P.

And let me know what you want to do about coding some of those positions as starting neutrals, but in all likelihood, we're going to suggest it to you anyway once I've run the bonus drop spreadsheet. Makes it easier on me to know that the following continents automatically won't be dropped bonuses, and will probably make it easier on you since it appears you're already willing to code these start positions as neutral:

Eastern Suburbs (La Perouse, though you will probably need to change this to Bondi)
SE Suburbs (Marrickville)
Sydney - City
Northern Beaches (Narrabeen)
Blue Mountains National Park - (bonus of same name)
National Parks - Marramarra N.P North

Neutral starts are placed as above.
thanks for yours and ian's work on this.

The latest update is good for seeing the bonuses better. I'm still not the biggest fan of the raised numbers that are the same color as their background. But, it is better.

I think the whole background on the left would be better if it wasn't that shade of blue/green. Perhaps you can have something that represents Syndey being the background in that section.

chapcrap...i'm not infavour of loosing that green left side as the background of the legend since it represents the combined colour of the Blue Mnts and the Gum leaves.

I have however, re-organised some legend for you and there are now 4 iconic images of Sydney on the map.
One needs no explanation.
The Opera house is not going on this map as it already on the Sydney Metro map.

Version 11.



CB Version 11 added to front page
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... 11S_cb.jpg

[army of nobunaga]

I like this old school classical risk map feel.

This is another map I need to look at more hours to get an idea on gameplay

[cairnswk]

I like this old school classical risk map feel.
...

Cool.

Are there any other comments re gameplay then?

[pamoa]

I would suggest you change the following neutrals
as I think it is better if key connecting point are "active"
else they become blocking point
and can give a big advantage to some player with a good concentrated drop

Eastern Suburbs = Bondi
SE Suburbs = Marrickville
Sydney = City
Northern Beaches = (Narrabeen) Palm Beach is better as it is not blocking the access to the kayak line
Blue Mountains National Park = (Blue Mountains National Park) Jamison Valley is better as BMNP is an hot point
National Parks = Marramarra National Parks North

[nolefan5311]

I would suggest you change the following neutrals
as I think it is better if key connecting point are "active"
else they become blocking point
and can give a big advantage to some player with a good concentrated drop

Eastern Suburbs = Bondi
SE Suburbs = Marrickville
Sydney = City
Northern Beaches = (Narrabeen) Palm Beach is better as it is not blocking the access to the kayak line
Blue Mountains National Park = (Blue Mountains National Park) Jamison Valley is better as BMNP is an hot point
National Parks = Marramarra National Parks North

Good points, though I would probably prefer that Manly start neutral rather than Palm Beach as Palm Beach is the only Northern Beaches territory that borders National Parks. Also, cairns, have you thought about extending the border of Palm Beach to Kuringal all the way and removing that little speck of water? It would clarify the borders a little more.

And I don't see any problem making Jamison Valley the neutral either. BMNP is a pretty centrally located region to start as a neutral.

[cairnswk]

...Also, cairns, have you thought about extending the border of Palm Beach to Kuringal all the way and removing that little speck of water? It would clarify the borders a little more.
...

i already have extended that border but am not in favour of extending it all the way because there is a bay in there...nobody would know of course unless they checked another map, but doesn't seem right to me when i think it is clear that Palm Bach borders Kuringai-Chase N.P.

The other suggestions above re changing positions for the neutral starts i am happy to do.

[nolefan5311]

...Also, cairns, have you thought about extending the border of Palm Beach to Kuringal all the way and removing that little speck of water? It would clarify the borders a little more.
...

i already have extended that border but am not in favour of extending it all the way because there is a bay in there...nobody would know of course unless they checked another map, but doesn't seem right to me when i think it is clear that Palm Bach borders Kuringai-Chase N.P.

The other suggestions above re changing positions for the neutral starts i am happy to do.

Ok, cool. Maybe just extend the straight horizontal line of the border between Palm Beach and Narrabeen all the way to Kuringal, cutting off that little triangle of St Ives Chase might be an option too. I wouldn't say it's unclear right now, but it's confusing just a little.

Also, I've run the bonus drop probabilities and they're very low, which is good. I'm running it by ian right now, should hear back from him in the next day or two. Would you be opposed to adding one more starting neutral? I've asked him what he thinks about lowering the start positions from 66 to 65, decreasing the golden number to 21, which would lower the probabilities even more, but then we may have an issue with the 21 starting regions and getting your opponent below 21 (and possibly even 18) too easily first turn in a 1v1. Hold off on changing anything right now until either he posts in the thread and I've posted what he's told me. Regardless, you're pretty close the Stamp, so hang tight

[pamoa]

65 not good at all in 1vs1 and 3 players games

[nolefan5311]

cairns, further review by Ian and myself indicates that you may need to lower the bonuses for Lower B.M, Upper B.M, BMNP, and Northwest Highlands even more. As is, a person can hold Parr State, Wilberforce, Winmalee, and Warragamba (4 regions) for a +12 bonus, or they can hold Winmalee and Warragamba (2 regions) for a +9.

What you may need to do is reduce each of the bonuses by 1, or perhaps combine the Upper BM and Lower BM bonuses into one continent at a +5 or something like that. That is, unless you're opposed to adding some sort of long range connection into the region, but I know you strive for geographic authenticity.. Maybe there can be a one way attack from Sydney to the Dam region, since you said that the dam is the sole provider of power to Sydney? Just an idea, let me know how you'd like to proceed.

[guttorm]

Your definition of "classic" seems a bit peculiar.. makes me think of something very old and original that later things are modeled upon - not simply another word for great.
I´m sure it could be called classic australian within that specific geographical context, but it´s hardly one of the truly classic cities of the world.

..but exaggeration is the sign of these times and the map looks good so never mind..

[DiM]

Your definition of "classic" seems a bit peculiar.. makes me think of something very old and original that later things are modeled upon - not simply another word for great.
I´m sure it could be called classic australian within that specific geographical context, but it´s hardly one of the truly classic cities of the world.

..but exaggeration is the sign of these times and the map looks good so never mind..

it's called Classic because it is one of the cities featured on the Classic map

[guttorm]

aha.. gotya.. I misunderstood within what context the word classic was used. Ignore my previous comment.

[cairnswk]

Your definition of "classic" seems a bit peculiar.. makes me think of something very old and original that later things are modeled upon - not simply another word for great.
I´m sure it could be called classic australian within that specific geographical context, but it´s hardly one of the truly classic cities of the world.

..but exaggeration is the sign of these times and the map looks good so never mind..

aha.. gotya.. I misunderstood within what context the word classic was used. Ignore my previous comment.

Thank you Dim, that is quite the reason it is called Classic Sydney, but also because it has "classic" gameplay - no frills or add-on bits.

However, to answer fairly guttorm's argument...

let's take this from the online Oxford Dictionary:

Classic:
Origin:
early 17th century: from French classique or Latin classicus 'belonging to a class or division', later 'of the highest class', from classis (see class)

Note that classic means ‘typical, excellent as an example, timeless,’ as in John Ford directed many classic Westerns, and classical means ‘relating to Greek or Roman antiquity’ ( the museum was built in the classical style). Great art is considered classic, not classical, unless it is created in the forms of antiquity. Classical music is the exception to this rule, being formal music adhering to certain stylistic principles of the late 18th century.

adjective
1. judged over a period of time to be of the highest quality and outstanding of its kind: a classic novel a classic car
(of a garment or design) of a simple, elegant style not greatly subject to changes in fashion: this classic navy blazer

2. very typical of its kind: Hamlet is the classic example of a tragedy I had all the classic symptoms of flu

classic

Pronunciation: /ˈklasɪk/
adjective

1judged over a period of time to be of the highest quality and outstanding of its kind: a classic novel a classic car
(of a garment or design) of a simple, elegant style not greatly subject to changes in fashion: this classic navy blazer

2very typical of its kind: Hamlet is the classic example of a tragedy I had all the classic symptoms of flu

noun

1. a work of art of recognized and established value: his books have become classics
a garment of a simple, elegant, and long-lasting style.
a thing which is memorable and a very good example of its kind: he’s hoping that tomorrow’s game will be a classic

2. (Classics) a subject at school or university which involves the study of ancient Greek and Latin literature, philosophy, and history: an honours degree in Classics
(the classics) the works of ancient Greek and Latin writers and philosophers.
dated a scholar of ancient Greek and Latin.

3. (Classic) a major sports tournament or competition, especially in golf or tennis: the Australian Classic
(in the UK) each of the five main flat races of the horse-racing season.

If we look here in 2009 (Forbes Magazine) we'll find that Sydney is judged no 2 in the world for "happiness" after Rio.

And here, yes it clearly doesn't make the top "Classical" cities of the world.

But then i guess it depends on who is defining the term "classic".
The World's best place to live in 2011 - Sydney No 11. - nothing to sneeze at
The World's most livable City 2011 - Sydney No 6
The Best Cities for Design and Modern Architecture 2010 - Sydney no 3. And I doubt anybody would dare to argue about the Opera House and Harbour Bridge being classic pieces of architectures.

Yes it definitely doesn't fit the European classical sense in many respects, but if you define it by the proper definition of classic...I (and others) would go so far to say it has become one of the world's classic cities.

Now, back to topic...

[cairnswk]

cairns, further review by Ian and myself indicates that you may need to lower the bonuses for Lower B.M, Upper B.M, BMNP, and Northwest Highlands even more. As is, a person can hold Parr State, Wilberforce, Winmalee, and Warragamba (4 regions) for a +12 bonus, or they can hold Winmalee and Warragamba (2 regions) for a +9.

What you may need to do is reduce each of the bonuses by 1, or perhaps combine the Upper BM and Lower BM bonuses into one continent at a +5 or something like that. That is, unless you're opposed to adding some sort of long range connection into the region, but I know you strive for geographic authenticity.. Maybe there can be a one way attack from Sydney to the Dam region, since you said that the dam is the sole provider of power to Sydney? Just an idea, let me know how you'd like to proceed.

I have stated before and indeed just above that i don't want this map to have any other style of gameplay than classic.
Therefore any long range assaults across other territories of any kind are out of the question.
i am quite happy to reduce bonuses if that fits the criteria of getting some balance.
I have also added next version a bridge between Richmond and Winmalee (true to life) so there is one more assault path into the Blue Mountains to make it less isolated.

I'll also do some research to see if it possible that walking/hiking trails exist from Parr down to Bilpin and then to Katoomba.
That might be any another avenue to have that less closed off.

[iancanton]

i am quite happy to reduce bonuses if that fits the criteria of getting some balance.
I have also added next version a bridge between Richmond and Winmalee (true to life) so there is one more assault path into the Blue Mountains to make it less isolated.

this is good, and can be improved more by combining the upper bm and lower bm bonuses into one of +5 to make the western side less bonus-heavy. also consider blocking off, for example, springwood from blue mountains national park so that the latter cannot attack every single region along the road; it isn't supposed to be a transport hub.

I'll also do some research to see if it possible that walking/hiking trails exist from Parr down to Bilpin and then to Katoomba.
That might be any another avenue to have that less closed off.

no, do not do this. in fact, i'll go further and encourage u to put mountains between winmalee and kurrajong (i believe the road from winmalee to kurrajong goes thru richmond anyway, across that bridge u're about to add), to provide a barrier between the bonuses that are west and north of the river, so that the preferred strategy for this map is not just to take an easy western or northern bonus, then expand to the next easy adjacent bonus and so on to win the game without going anywhere near either the middle of the map or sydney itself.

etalong and narrabean ought to be ettalong and narrabeen respectively.

the northeast isn't quite right. there isn't an easy way to reach ettalong by road unless u go thru woy woy. it's the other way round on our map. we can make this corner bonus less attractive by removing the bridge to kuringai-chase and reducing its bonus from +2 to +1.

ian.

[cairnswk]

i am quite happy to reduce bonuses if that fits the criteria of getting some balance.
I have also added next version a bridge between Richmond and Winmalee (true to life) so there is one more assault path into the Blue Mountains to make it less isolated.

this is good, and can be improved more by combining the upper bm and lower bm bonuses into one of +5 to make the western side less bonus-heavy. also consider blocking off, for example, springwood from blue mountains national park so that the latter cannot attack every single region along the road; it isn't supposed to be a transport hub.

do we really have to combine those two bonuses...i'm totally not in favour of it. i'd prefer to have a couple of small bonuses there to capture to even with the east side...
but i have added the mountains between springwood and BM NP.

I'll also do some research to see if it possible that walking/hiking trails exist from Parr down to Bilpin and then to Katoomba.
That might be any another avenue to have that less closed off.

no, do not do this. in fact, i'll go further and encourage u to put mountains between winmalee and kurrajong (i believe the road from winmalee to kurrajong goes thru richmond anyway, across that bridge u're about to add), to provide a barrier between the bonuses that are west and north of the river, so that the preferred strategy for this map is not just to take an easy western or northern bonus, then expand to the next easy adjacent bonus and so on to win the game without going anywhere near either the middle of the map or sydney itself.

Grose River added there as the impassables instead of mountains, and there is now a bridge from Richmond to Kurrajong.

etalong and narrabean ought to be ettalong and narrabeen respectively.

Done.

the northeast isn't quite right. there isn't an easy way to reach ettalong by road unless u go thru woy woy. it's the other way round on our map. we can make this corner bonus less attractive by removing the bridge to kuringai-chase and reducing its bonus from +2 to +1.
ian.

that bridge represents the railway bridge that can be traversed at a pinch to get into those regions, so yes it can be crossed...i'd rather not lose it otherwise it makes that corner too closed off.

Version 12....

[iancanton]

this is good, and can be improved more by combining the upper bm and lower bm bonuses into one of +5 to make the western side less bonus-heavy.

do we really have to combine those two bonuses...i'm totally not in favour of it. i'd prefer to have a couple of small bonuses there to capture to even with the east side...

What you may need to do is reduce each of the bonuses by 1

these two bonus zones are small, but +3 and +4 are not both small bonuses. +2 and +3 may qualify as small bonuses.

mountains between winmalee and kurrajong (i believe the road from winmalee to kurrajong goes thru richmond anyway, across that bridge u're about to add), to provide a barrier between the bonuses that are west and north of the river, so that the preferred strategy for this map is not just to take an easy western or northern bonus, then expand to the next easy adjacent bonus and so on to win the game without going anywhere near either the middle of the map or sydney itself.

Grose River added there as the impassables instead of mountains, and there is now a bridge from Richmond to Kurrajong.

a river works just fine! i'm more comfortable with a +2 bonus for nw highlands instead of +3 because of its corner position.

the northeast isn't quite right. there isn't an easy way to reach ettalong by road unless u go thru woy woy. it's the other way round on our map. we can make this corner bonus less attractive by removing the bridge to kuringai-chase and reducing its bonus from +2 to +1.

that bridge represents the railway bridge that can be traversed at a pinch to get into those regions, so yes it can be crossed...i'd rather not lose it otherwise it makes that corner too closed off.

point accepted about being too closed off. however, whether u go by road or rail, u have to go thru woy woy to reach ettalong and the map shows that u have to go thru ettalong to reach woy woy, which is the wrong way round.

is it ku-ring-gai chase national park, not kuringai-chase national park?

http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/nationalparks/parkhome.aspx?id=N0019

londonerry ought to be londonderry and falconbridge is correctly faulconbridge.

ian.

[cairnswk]

...
these two bonus zones are small, but +3 and +4 are not both small bonuses. +2 and +3 may qualify as small bonuses.

Done!

a river works just fine! i'm more comfortable with a +2 bonus for nw highlands instead of +3 because of its corner position.

Done!

point accepted about being too closed off. however, whether u go by road or rail, u have to go thru woy woy to reach ettalong and the map shows that u have to go thru ettalong to reach woy woy, which is the wrong way round.

Ettalong was placed as a name off another map, so because of your reasoning i've renamed the region to...Brisbane Water National Park

is it ku-ring-gai chase national park, not kuringai-chase national park?

Done, although i've seen it spelled differently again elsewhere

londonerry ought to be londonderry and falconbridge is correctly faulconbridge.
ian.

Done!

Version 13.

[DoomYoshi]

I really like this map. A lot of small bonuses without neutrals everywhere. Beta this shit already.