Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire) [Quenched]

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Re: The Fall of the Roman Empire (Conquer Rome)

Postby Kabanellas on Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:11 am

Any preferences?

Option A
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Option B
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Re: The Fall of the Roman Empire (Conquer Rome)

Postby theBastard on Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:36 am

the first one looks better for me.

just one notice: the Angles (Anglo-Saxons) become to Britain later (about 600 AD). there were Celts and Britons who ruled Isles after Romans withraw.
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Re: The Fall of the Roman Empire (Conquer Rome)

Postby natty dread on Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:40 am

1st one def
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Re: The Fall of the Roman Empire (Conquer Rome)

Postby tokle on Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:08 am

theBastard wrote:the first one looks better for me.

just one notice: the Angles (Anglo-Saxons) become to Britain later (about 600 AD). there were Celts and Britons who ruled Isles after Romans withraw.

There were Angles who were harrowing the british coast long before the Anglo-Saxong invasions in the 5th century. And this map is not about after the withdrawal, but during the collapse of the empire.
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Re: The Fall of the Roman Empire (Conquer Rome)

Postby theBastard on Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:47 am

tokle wrote:
theBastard wrote:just one notice: the Angles (Anglo-Saxons) become to Britain later (about 600 AD). there were Celts and Britons who ruled Isles after Romans withraw.

There were Angles who were harrowing the british coast long before the Anglo-Saxong invasions in the 5th century. And this map is not about after the withdrawal, but during the collapse of the empire.


yes, this is baout collapse. but than there were no Anles (Anglo-Saxons) as main power. yes Anglo-Saxons harrowing the coastal area (but is was not massive) and in England lived Anglo-Saxons, but only as foreign settlers.

it was Celts and Britons which were incoming power after Romans (and during collapse). when there is also Barbarian Invasion (and the truth is that all others tribes did massive invasion and established their rule in Roman area), the Anglo-Saxon invasion become later.
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Re: The Fall of the Roman Empire (Conquer Rome)

Postby tokle on Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:57 am

theBastard wrote:
tokle wrote:
theBastard wrote:just one notice: the Angles (Anglo-Saxons) become to Britain later (about 600 AD). there were Celts and Britons who ruled Isles after Romans withraw.

There were Angles who were harrowing the british coast long before the Anglo-Saxong invasions in the 5th century. And this map is not about after the withdrawal, but during the collapse of the empire.


yes, this is baout collapse. but than there were no Anles (Anglo-Saxons) as main power. yes Anglo-Saxons harrowing the coastal area (but is was not massive) and in England lived Anglo-Saxons, but only as foreign settlers.

it was Celts and Britons which were incoming power after Romans (and during collapse). when there is also Barbarian Invasion (and the truth is that all others tribes did massive invasion and established their rule in Roman area), the Anglo-Saxon invasion become later.

In the context of this map it is not a-historical to include the Angles, in my oppinion. The Britons you speak of were not barbarians, and they weren't an "incoming" power, they were continuation of Roman power. But since the didn't have any military, they were actually pretty powerless. And it was this vacuum that the Roman Legion had left that encouraged the Anglo-Saxon invasions. So the Anglo-Saxon invasions were definitely related to the collapse of the Roman Empire.

Though considering that the arrow is pointing at the north it might be more fitting to include the Picts. Though, admittedly, they didn't settle and become the dominant power in any areas of the old Empire.
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Re: The Fall of the Roman Empire (Conquer Rome)

Postby isaiah40 on Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:08 pm

I like the first better definitely.
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Re: The Fall of the Roman Empire (Conquer Rome)

Postby theBastard on Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:20 pm

tokle wrote:In the context of this map it is not a-historical to include the Angles, in my oppinion.


it is a-historical for this time period.
tokle wrote:The Britons you speak of were not barbarians, and they weren't an "incoming" power, they were continuation of Roman power.


they were not "incoming" power, but they were new power - they established their Kingdoms and Kings. never during Roman rule of England.
tokle wrote:But since the didn't have any military, they were actually pretty powerless.


they did not have any military? the were powerless? do you know how many soldiers (legions) were in England to secure this land for Romans from powerless Britons? btw, also because in Britain were many legions they can not help to secure east borders.

and do not forget that after Romans withdrawall England the Britons must secure themselves before invasion from Ireland. and they won.
tokle wrote:And it was this vacuum that the Roman Legion had left that encouraged the Anglo-Saxon invasions. So the Anglo-Saxon invasions were definitely related to the collapse of the Roman Empire.


Anglo-Saxons were invited by Vortigern to help him against his enemies.
tokle wrote:Though considering that the arrow is pointing at the north it might be more fitting to include the Picts. Though, admittedly, they didn't settle and become the dominant power in any areas of the old Empire.


Anglo-Saxons become mainly from South...
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Re: The Fall of the Roman Empire (Conquer Rome)

Postby Commander9 on Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:20 pm

isaiah40 wrote:I like the first better definitely.


This.
But... It was so artistically done.
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Re: The Fall of the Roman Empire (Conquer Rome)

Postby tokle on Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:04 pm

theBastard wrote:
tokle wrote:In the context of this map it is not a-historical to include the Angles, in my oppinion.


it is a-historical for this time period.
tokle wrote:The Britons you speak of were not barbarians, and they weren't an "incoming" power, they were continuation of Roman power.


they were not "incoming" power, but they were new power - they established their Kingdoms and Kings. never during Roman rule of England.

What? What kings and kingdoms are you talking about? What happened in Britain after the Roman legions left was something like a chaotic anarchy. There are very few written sources from this era, so exactly what happened we will never know. History writing about this period is mostly guesswork.

theBastard wrote:
tokle wrote:But since the didn't have any military, they were actually pretty powerless.


they did not have any military? the were powerless? do you know how many soldiers (legions) were in England to secure this land for Romans from powerless Britons? btw, also because in Britain were many legions they can not help to secure east borders.

and do not forget that after Romans withdrawall England the Britons must secure themselves before invasion from Ireland. and they won.

The Romans moved all their troops off Britain, thus the civilized Celts who were left in charge of the civilized parts of the island did not have any military. That's why they started paying the Germans to defend them.
I don't know this invasion you're talking about. Do you have any information about that?

theBastard wrote:
tokle wrote:And it was this vacuum that the Roman Legion had left that encouraged the Anglo-Saxon invasions. So the Anglo-Saxon invasions were definitely related to the collapse of the Roman Empire.


Anglo-Saxons were invited by Vortigern to help him against his enemies.

This is a legend. How true it is is unknow. But it only accounts for the Jutes settling in Kent. Not the other German invasion happening around the same time.

theBastard wrote:
tokle wrote:Though considering that the arrow is pointing at the north it might be more fitting to include the Picts. Though, admittedly, they didn't settle and become the dominant power in any areas of the old Empire.


Anglo-Saxons become mainly from South...

At least we agree on that.
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Re: The Fall of the Roman Empire (Conquer Rome)

Postby theBastard on Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:30 pm

tokle wrote:What? What kings and kingdoms are you talking about? What happened in Britain after the Roman legions left was something like a chaotic anarchy. There are very few written sources from this era, so exactly what happened we will never know. History writing about this period is mostly guesswork.


so you never hear about Goddodin, Rheged, Elmet, Brynaich, Gwynedd, Powys... what about title King of Britons...
we know what happend - there are several historians (mainly monks) Gildas, Nennius, Bede...
tokle wrote:The Romans moved all their troops off Britain, thus the civilized Celts who were left in charge of the civilized parts of the island did not have any military. That's why they started paying the Germans to defend them.
I don't know this invasion you're talking about. Do you have any information about that?


no, no... to the Britain were send excelent generals to fight against Picts, Irish and Scots. and ofcourse many soldiers. for example Magnus Maximus, general of legions in Britain took throne in Rome by legions from Britain. when Visigoths attacked Italy one legion of two in Britain become as reinforce. two legions in so small area as was Roman England (and in these era when each soldier on borders in Europe was needed...

they have military, Anglo-Saxons conquered them 200 years...
tokle wrote:This is a legend. How true it is is unknow. But it only accounts for the Jutes settling in Kent. Not the other German invasion happening around the same time.


legend written in Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and mentioned by Celtic monks...
tokle wrote:At least we agree on that.


I believe we will find more common :) .
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Re: The Fall of the Roman Empire (Conquer Rome)

Postby tokle on Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:49 pm

theBastard wrote:
tokle wrote:What? What kings and kingdoms are you talking about? What happened in Britain after the Roman legions left was something like a chaotic anarchy. There are very few written sources from this era, so exactly what happened we will never know. History writing about this period is mostly guesswork.


so you never hear about Goddodin, Rheged, Elmet, Brynaich,

As I said, reliable sources are non-existant. But I believe entities like those only came into being a few generations later. And talking about these as kingdoms per se is difficult, as I'm pretty sure the extent of control that the kings held would be fairly low.
And anyway, these were not barbarian peoples coming in from outside.
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Re: The Fall of the Roman Empire (Conquer Rome)

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:45 pm

I think i favor the second version, but only if you put the same painting texture that you used int he first example. Red is more Roman to me.

Out of curiosity... what's the logic behind having two Barbarian spaces instead of one?
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Re: The Fall of the Roman Empire (Conquer Rome)

Postby tokle on Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:00 pm

theBastard wrote:
tokle wrote:The Romans moved all their troops off Britain, thus the civilized Celts who were left in charge of the civilized parts of the island did not have any military. That's why they started paying the Germans to defend them.
I don't know this invasion you're talking about. Do you have any information about that?


no, no... to the Britain were send excelent generals to fight against Picts, Irish and Scots. and ofcourse many soldiers. for example Magnus Maximus, general of legions in Britain took throne in Rome by legions from Britain. when Visigoths attacked Italy one legion of two in Britain become as reinforce. two legions in so small area as was Roman England (and in these era when each soldier on borders in Europe was needed...

I don't see how this is relevant to my point. We're talking about different time periods. I was talking about the time after all the Roman soldiers had left.
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Re: The Fall of the Roman Empire (Conquer Rome)

Postby theBastard on Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:37 pm

tokle wrote:
theBastard wrote:
tokle wrote:The Romans moved all their troops off Britain, thus the civilized Celts who were left in charge of the civilized parts of the island did not have any military. That's why they started paying the Germans to defend them.
I don't know this invasion you're talking about. Do you have any information about that?


no, no... to the Britain were send excelent generals to fight against Picts, Irish and Scots. and ofcourse many soldiers. for example Magnus Maximus, general of legions in Britain took throne in Rome by legions from Britain. when Visigoths attacked Italy one legion of two in Britain become as reinforce. two legions in so small area as was Roman England (and in these era when each soldier on borders in Europe was needed...

I don't see how this is relevant to my point. We're talking about different time periods. I was talking about the time after all the Roman soldiers had left.


it looks so, but I´m talking about time period to which is map situated. you are talking about which period?

my English is not good, maybe sometimes I do not exactly understand, but one thing is clear to me: it is far history, and nobody can tell that about this we know everything and about that nothing ;)
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