Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire) [Quenched]

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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby theBastard on Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:39 pm

when Barbarian outpost are autodeploy, also capitals of Dioceses could be...
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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby neanderpaul14 on Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:24 am

I have just three comments about this map:

1) I wanna play it.

2) I WANNA PLAY IT!!

3) I WANNA PLAY IT!!!
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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:05 am

:D :D :D :D
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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:08 am

theBastard wrote:when Barbarian outpost are autodeploy, also capitals of Dioceses could be...


Diocesis capitals will not start neutral so they shouldn't' yield any bonus alone. Also, I don't think that conceptually, Barbarians having autodeploy-bonus would mean that capitals should have it too :)
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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby theBastard on Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:47 am

Kabanellas wrote:
theBastard wrote:when Barbarian outpost are autodeploy, also capitals of Dioceses could be...


Diocesis capitals will not start neutral so they shouldn't' yield any bonus alone. Also, I don't think that conceptually, Barbarians having autodeploy-bonus would mean that capitals should have it too :)


than Romans are realy in ass :lol:
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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby MarshalNey on Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:39 am

Okay this map is due for a bump... and review (sorry for the delay Kab)

First, let me say that this map is beautiful as always, epic as always, and the history engrossing as always. :)

That said, the gameplay may be your most ambitious yet, although it may only seem that way to me because of my problems reading the legend :? In fact after reading, re-reading and finally getting some guidance from Kab via PM I'm fairly certain that the gameplay framework itself is solid. The details, such as placements, can be debated later, but primarily I think the bulk of the work for this forum will be organizing the legend.

On that note, here are my concerns about the legend:
(1) The Text is not easy on my eyes. When there's a big block of text, such as in the lower left section or the upper right about the Emperor, the font becomes a real chore to read. Every single letter in the font is actually quite legible, but when it all comes together- particularly on the small map- it seems like someone shouting in all caps in a long paragraph. I like complex maps, but every time I read this legend I feel a sense of dread similar to searching for abbreviations in Waterloo (luckily I've memorized all of those).

Solution: Reducing the number of words would certainly ease my textaphobia. The font itself, well I'm no font expert as anyone can attest but maybe there's something out there that would work better...

(2) The Bonuses are written out in long sentences, and refer to places on the map that aren't readily identifiable for me. For instance, when I read that Diocese Capitals one way assault their respective Vicarious in the Roman Government, I honestly didn't see a Vicarious for quite some time. I looked up above and the word 'Vicarious' was lost in the fog of all that was up there. So I looked on the lands, in other corners... no dice. Having to go on safari for the name of a bonus will happen from time to time in any complex map, but usually I'll know at least the general area to look in (such as the land, other parts of the legend, etc.). In this case the words "Roman Government" might have given me a clue, except that I wasn't sure if the phrase referred to an actual part of the map or just flavor text (the Roman Government label I didn't notice until my sixth look at the map).

Solution: Again reducing the text so that the bonuses appear more as a list would help enormously. I think most CC players are used to digesting bonuses that way, and I think there are places where this could be acheived.
Also, since the bonus text will refer to different parts of the map often, I think using the symbols as much as possible will aid tremendously. The Third Crusade map used symbols to good effect for a huge laundry list of bonuses. In this map, the Diocese symbol was very helpful- I immediately identified the two areas of text that talked about Diocese Capitals. But the Emperor, the Praetors, the Vicarus... they get lost without any color or symbol to draw the eye.

(3) The Roman Government has this cool background which unfortunately just makes the font even harder to read. And the red text in particular starts to blend in.


Well this post was more wordy than I wanted it to be, but it's late so it will have to stand as is. Sorry for all of the words.

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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby Kabanellas on Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:33 am

Thanks a lot Marshal for your time and feedback :)

the big part of what you stated here (very valid concerns I might add) belong to the graphics part and I would feel more comfortable of leaving that study for when we settled the gameplay - I'm used to see things changing a lot and graphics become outdated due to game-play changes...

Anyway, I think that you've touched a good point with the icon/symbols part - that would be very helpful on comprehending the map. I'll get my hands dirty now and try to find a viable solution for that. ;)
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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby jigger1986 on Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:15 am

Just release it now! It looks incredible and I cant wait to play it.
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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby Nola_Lifer on Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:46 pm

I think you need to spread the Barb tribes out more or get rid of Sassanid or add Muslim/N/ African tribes. All of the Barb tribes are in Europe and right on top of each other while Sassanid stands by itself. Seems a bit unbalanced there.
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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby MarshalNey on Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:16 am

jigger1986 wrote:Just release it now! It looks incredible and I cant wait to play it.


This map is unfortunately not going anywhere until it has met the gameplay standard. Broadly speaking, that means:
(1) Clear framework that ties into concept
(2) Balance
(3) Clarity

Once these three general criteria are met, you will have your wish Jigger. If you want this map to move along, please comment in any or all of the above areas, with critique that either analyzes, supports or rejects certain aspects of the map as it stands.

In other words, to keep this map from languishing, be specific. If you like the map, tell the community what specfically (gameplay-wise) you like about the map and why you think it meets or exceeds the criteria above. As it stands, the lack of specific community feedback- positive or negative- has me feeling that the gameplay isn't clear enough to comment upon, which means that number (3) in the above list needs work. The historical and artistic aspects of the map are attractive, but without gameplay that is not merely functional, but high-quality, it's just not going to go forward.

Kabanellas wrote:the big part of what you stated here (very valid concerns I might add) belong to the graphics part and I would feel more comfortable of leaving that study for when we settled the gameplay - I'm used to see things changing a lot and graphics become outdated due to game-play changes...


Understandable that you don't want to make many graphical changes if the gameplay will mutate wildly ;)

However, my biggest concern, and what will probably continue to be a concern until it's addressed in a significant fashion, is clarity. The gameplay must be clear for this map to get a stamp. The things that I brought up were intended largely to that end.

Nola_Lifer wrote:I think you need to spread the Barb tribes out more or get rid of Sassanid or add Muslim/N/ African tribes. All of the Barb tribes are in Europe and right on top of each other while Sassanid stands by itself. Seems a bit unbalanced there.


I share this worry as well. I'm not a huge fan of how the Barbarian tribes are all going to get into each other's hair right away, except one. Personally I'd like to see them more spread out, but history also plays a part here... still I think there are historical incursions that could be included that might serve this purpose, if the idea worked with the concept that Kabs has in mind.

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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby Kabanellas on Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:14 am

Guys, I'm having some terrible last weeks - projects to finish and deliver among other personal stuff!!

With the free spare time (and mind) that I find, I keep juggling things on the map - and honestly I'm finding a bit hard at this point to make the game-play more perceptible than it is :(

Tried the symbols situation, but couldn't make them fit there... But I'll keep trying (I'm resilient enough) ;) .

btw Marshal, people didn't comment much on the King Court's thread before it went BETA (especially about the game-play) - so I'm not totally concerned about the same happening here. :)
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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby Nola_Lifer on Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:33 pm

What about roads. Rome was known for its well connected roads. Can you find a way to connect the map with roads that allow for someone to move across the board quickly.
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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby natty dread on Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:55 pm

Yeah, and they all need to one-way assault Rome.
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Re: The Fall of the Roman Empire (Conquer Rome)

Postby Rodion on Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:54 pm

Kabanellas wrote:
Rodion wrote:Should be a great map, Nuno!

One thing I'd like to see is territories with real city/province names instead of codes like AFI, AFII, AFIII, AFIV and AFV. Do you think that can be done? :)


ohhh... How I wish. Unfortunatly I don't have the space for it especially on the small map. Also, I've merged some provinces in some areas of the Empire, so, if for some we could actually refer to them by their accurate historical name on the merged ones we couldn't.


Maps can be bigger now, so space might not be a problem anymore. I don't personally mind the lack of accuracy arising from merged provinces (maybe you could go with the "_____ & _____" format?) if we can keep the map more "historical" and less looking like a chess board with all the codes (AF IV) and stuff.
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Re: The Fall of the Roman Empire (Conquer Rome)

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:12 pm

Rodion wrote:
Kabanellas wrote:
Rodion wrote:Maps can be bigger now, so space might not be a problem anymore. I don't personally mind the lack of accuracy arising from merged provinces (maybe you could go with the "_____ & _____" format?) if we can keep the map more "historical" and less looking like a chess board with all the codes (AF IV) and stuff.


I support this. I'd prefer territory names to alpha-numeric code.
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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby theBastard on Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:26 am

I agree with Sassanids. Kabanellas, you did great work, spent much time on map, have your gameplay - but what about to cut off map a little?

the fall of Rome was more about western part, the barbarian invasion was more about western part. so what about to kick off east part (maybe all Asia, maybe just have Asiana there)???

you will have more space for rest of map, the Constantinople will be still here (for showing dividing of Empire) and there will be no problems with Barbarians - all will have similar start position.

about numbers - I like them as they are. and they are Romans ;)
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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby Gillipig on Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:42 am

Looks nice but it's very similar to Imperium Romanum in theme! I know this is about the fall of the Roman Empire and that's a difference but I'd like to see some more uniqueness! The area covered is the same as Imp. Rom. so it's easy for it to look like a remake of that map!

Edit: Not that it needs a remake!
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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby Kabanellas on Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:39 am

I would totally disagree with that.
Though it covers the Roman Empire era - despite being in an obviously diferent period from Qwert's Imperium Romanum - the gameplay is absolutely different here. Actually any similarity would be sheer coincidence.
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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby Gillipig on Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:56 am

Kabanellas wrote:I would totally disagree with that.
Though it covers the Roman Empire era - despite being in an obviously diferent period from Qwert's Imperium Romanum - the gameplay is absolutely different here. Actually any similarity would be cheer coincidence.

Maybe it's just me! I've played too many games on that map to be objective! I still see Imp. Rom. everywhere and that's probably because the area covered is as good as identical to that map! I'm not saying it's a bad map I'll probably play a lot on it but to me..... Ok I'll tell you what I see; I see the old Imperium Romanum map laying behind this map and this new map with different colours being pasted over it but not enough to still see the old map! I'm not saying you've done that but simply describing how it looks through my eyes :) !
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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby natty dread on Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:18 pm

I agree that this map is unique and different enough from IR. I'll have to take a closer look at the gameplay when I get the chance... too bad I know so little about Rome :/
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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby Rodion on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:26 pm

Gillipig wrote:
Kabanellas wrote:I would totally disagree with that.
Though it covers the Roman Empire era - despite being in an obviously diferent period from Qwert's Imperium Romanum - the gameplay is absolutely different here. Actually any similarity would be cheer coincidence.

Maybe it's just me! I've played too many games on that map to be objective! I still see Imp. Rom. everywhere and that's probably because the area covered is as good as identical to that map! I'm not saying it's a bad map I'll probably play a lot on it but to me..... Ok I'll tell you what I see; I see the old Imperium Romanum map laying behind this map and this new map with different colours being pasted over it but not enough to still see the old map! I'm not saying you've done that but simply describing how it looks through my eyes :) !


Do you feel the same when comparing maps such as First Nations North America and North America?
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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby Gillipig on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:57 pm

Rodion wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
Kabanellas wrote:I would totally disagree with that.
Though it covers the Roman Empire era - despite being in an obviously diferent period from Qwert's Imperium Romanum - the gameplay is absolutely different here. Actually any similarity would be cheer coincidence.

Maybe it's just me! I've played too many games on that map to be objective! I still see Imp. Rom. everywhere and that's probably because the area covered is as good as identical to that map! I'm not saying it's a bad map I'll probably play a lot on it but to me..... Ok I'll tell you what I see; I see the old Imperium Romanum map laying behind this map and this new map with different colours being pasted over it but not enough to still see the old map! I'm not saying you've done that but simply describing how it looks through my eyes :) !


Do you feel the same when comparing maps such as First Nations North America and North America?

Nope which is why it's probably just me ;) ! Half of my games have been on Imp. Rom. so it's a little special map for me and probably why I see it the way I see it! Kabanellas how long do you think it'll take before we can try this one on beta? I'll organize a tournament focusing on the Roman Empire in the near future and the more maps available on that theme the better!
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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:44 pm

Thank you Gillipig!

This is my dream project to be honest :).

I meant to make a Roman Empire map even before I started the Third Crusade. I strongly believe in this project and I really feel that we have a great gameplay here, as we stand. Some repairs were made by Marshall concerning the readability (and comprehensiveness) of the legend.

So what is missing now, for this project to move on, is some spare time and probably some helping ideas - because I'm having serious difficulties in changing the lay-out, or finding a better one :( (i can honestly say that this is the first time that I'm feeling like this on a map I've made) 8-[
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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby Riskismy on Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:28 pm

I haven't followed the thread, so sorry if I'm having you repeat yourself (feel free to point to a page number!), but the layout seems alright to me. Took me some 10 or 15 minutes to make heads and tails of it, but that certainly not unique to this map. Lots of other maps are equally difficult to understand.

Just fit the government explanations (above) into the main map and you're good to go as far as I'm concerned.

Looks like very engaging gameplay - would love to play this map!
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Re: Conquer Rome (The Fall of the Roman Empire)

Postby Gillipig on Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:25 pm

When it comes to number of territs I'm not sure that I think it should be 80-90 as it is now! Bigger is not always better and a lot of these territs could be molded with an adjacent territ without destroying gameplay or mess up with borders! I think around 60 territs would be better! There's a general trend to make really large maps nowadays that fits 8 players well but gets too big for 3-5 players!

Edit: I now see that there are more than 100 territs :o ! My 3-5 player type of map suggestion isn't gonna be reality then I guess!
What are your plans with the barbarian tribes? Are you gonna keep the white bubbles?

Further edit: I think the legions should be placed differently! They're bundled up together and not spread out evenly! GVI borders 3 legions while spain and Greece have no legions!

Even more edition :) : I also think there are too many win condition and it's too easy to fulfill them! I would suggest limit it too 1 win condition and make it harder! Although freestyler's would love to have it this way ;) !
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