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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 3

Postby MrBenn on Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:52 am

Yes, that looks better.

Part of me wonders whether Carib. and Ignerri on the Southern map should be absorbed into the Circum-Caribbean bonus on the Northern map, but I think that would be difficult to represent (even if it were a more natural grouping).

On a graphical note, I wonder if the two ships should be rotated to align properly with the paper (like you've done with their names)?
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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 3

Postby Ace Rimmer on Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:16 am

I came.
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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 3

Postby Bruceswar on Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:35 am

jakewilliams wrote:I came.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: =D> =D> =D> =D>

I cannot wait for this one to be out!
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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 3

Postby sdh on Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:40 am

looks fantastic
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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 3

Postby phantomzero on Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:09 pm

Fantastic! QUENCH!!!
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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 3

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:45 pm

Can we get Niña and Victoria right under the ships?

And the second n in Niña ought to have a tilde.
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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 3

Postby Peter Gibbons on Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:01 pm

Beautiful combination. Will be a wonderful addition. Great idea to combine two beautiful existing maps to use under the new size allowances (I wonder... would the USA Interstate pack be next?).

Anyway only one gameplay suggestion/question right now...

Would a +1 bonus for holding both ships be in order? Or possibly a +1 auto-deploy on either? If neither suggestion ends up being in favor, should there be a place on the map that says the ships are "not part of any bonus" like the Sea of Japan territory on the Japan map?
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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 3

Postby Tisha on Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:28 pm

I moved the names a little closer, tilted the ships.

what are we doing with Neutrals? ship ship and Nimiipuu?

MrBenn wrote:
Part of me wonders whether Carib. and Ignerri on the Southern map should be absorbed into the Circum-Caribbean bonus on the Northern map, but I think that would be difficult to represent (even if it were a more natural grouping).


I would like to add those to the other bonus MrBenn, but now sure how that would work..
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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 3

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:48 pm

I don't see why the ships ought to be neutrals. Let them deploy like every other territory. Nimiipuu should remain a neutral, as it is on FNoNA.

Where there any other starting neutrals on the other maps?
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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 3

Postby theBastard on Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:43 pm

I agree to add ships as neutral. and also Nimiipuu and Salish.
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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 3

Postby Tisha on Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:26 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:I don't see why the ships ought to be neutrals. Let them deploy like every other territory. Nimiipuu should remain a neutral, as it is on FNoNA.

Where there any other starting neutrals on the other maps?



Starting neutrals:
North America: Nimiipuu


South America: Aonikenk

I can't remember any more. but if we make the ships plus one, we can make one of them a Neutral? :D
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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 3

Postby MarshalNey on Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:07 pm

How many regions are on this map? I counted N.America at 72 (which agrees with the old map thread) but I counted S.America at 53 (map thread said 52) and then the 2 Ships.

So, the total appears to be 127. Is this right?

It's an unfortunate range for the drop, but at least if there were 2 neutral regions then 2-, 3- and 7-player games would have a nice starting number of regions at the drop. Dropping below 125 regions for the drop would put 5-player games at the worst place, and dropping below 124 would put 4-player games at the worst place.

As for 6-player and 8-player games, they will be at the worst starting regions no matter what, so no point in worrying about them.

Anyway my suggestion is to make sure there are at least 2 starting neutrals on the map, and if feasible no more than that.

Oh, one other small thing... could you put the map in the first post in bigimg tags?

Thanks,

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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 3

Postby Tisha on Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:50 pm

MarshalNey wrote:How many regions are on this map? I counted N.America at 72 (which agrees with the old map thread) but I counted S.America at 53 (map thread said 52) and then the 2 Ships.

So, the total appears to be 127. Is this right?

It's an unfortunate range for the drop, but at least if there were 2 neutral regions then 2-, 3- and 7-player games would have a nice starting number of regions at the drop. Dropping below 125 regions for the drop would put 5-player games at the worst place, and dropping below 124 would put 4-player games at the worst place.

As for 6-player and 8-player games, they will be at the worst starting regions no matter what, so no point in worrying about them.

Anyway my suggestion is to make sure there are at least 2 starting neutrals on the map, and if feasible no more than that.

Oh, one other small thing... could you put the map in the first post in bigimg tags?

Thanks,

Marshal Ney

127, yes

2 neutrals? one on Nimiipuu, and one on the ship? then give plus one for holding both ships?


Click image to enlarge.
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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 4

Postby MarshalNey on Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:07 am

Tisha wrote:2 neutrals? one on Nimiipuu, and one on the ship? then give plus one for holding both ships?


That could work, yes... as long you're fine with Aonikenk being open for deployment. Considering the vast number of regions, I personally don't think it will be a problem, whereas the Ships will be a problem (either part of a bonus, part of no bonus and extra instruction on the legend, or a bonus in their own right) unless addressed in some way.

Making them their own bonus is my personal preference; my second choice would be to make them part of no bonus. The last option makes little thematic sense as the Ships were the nemesis of the native inhabitants in many ways.

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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 4

Postby jefjef on Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:33 am

Cool. Glad to see this combined!

For balance it might be a good idea for Victoria ship to move north connection up to Quinault and add a connect to Central America. Especially if you make it a bonus.

Thanks for the great maps Tisha! =D>
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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 4

Postby Tisha on Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:29 am

MarshalNey wrote:
Tisha wrote:2 neutrals? one on Nimiipuu, and one on the ship? then give plus one for holding both ships?


That could work, yes... as long you're fine with Aonikenk being open for deployment. Considering the vast number of regions, I personally don't think it will be a problem, whereas the Ships will be a problem (either part of a bonus, part of no bonus and extra instruction on the legend, or a bonus in their own right) unless addressed in some way.

Making them their own bonus is my personal preference; my second choice would be to make them part of no bonus. The last option makes little thematic sense as the Ships were the nemesis of the native inhabitants in many ways.

Marshal Ney

plus one auto deploy for each ship?


well, I don't want that. because I only have room for two neutrals, and one needs to be Nimiipuu.
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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 4

Postby MarshalNey on Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:02 pm

Tisha wrote:plus one auto deploy for each ship?


well, I don't want that. because I only have room for two neutrals, and one needs to be Nimiipuu.


Ummm, no I wasn't suggesting autodeploy. I agree that's a terrible idea. When I said 'make them their own bonus' I simply meant make them a bonus. Sorry for the confusion.

Yes, +1 for holding both sounds fine.
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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 3

Postby iancanton on Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:17 pm

this map looks as good as a picture.

MarshalNey wrote:As for 6-player and 8-player games, they will be at the worst starting regions no matter what, so no point in worrying about them.

Anyway my suggestion is to make sure there are at least 2 starting neutrals on the map, and if feasible no more than that.

at 127 regions, u can't do much about 6-player. however, the natural format for a map of such a size is 8-player, especially quads, where each player starts with exactly 15 regions, which allows someone to knock down an opponent's deployment easily before he or she has a chance to move. if this is fixed, then i can see the map becoming a favourite for clan games.

if we add 1 more ship to each ocean (to give a 4-ship bonus) and remove the neutrals (the +1 plateau bonus is reasonably likely to drop to a player only with 4 or fewer players, when the bonus adds +1 to a deployment of 10 to 14 troops - not a game-changer), then we have 129 regions, giving 16 regions to each of 8 players. adding 2 ships but keeping the nimipuu neutral is also possible while retaining 16 regions for 8 players.

ian. :)
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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 4

Postby natty dread on Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:54 pm

I wonder, why is the initial deployment problem never addressed by changing the troop reinforcements, especially on large maps like this?

When the map is this big, it would make sense to "scale up" the reinforcement specs as well.

For example, here we could specify that you'd get 1 troop for every 4 territories, with a minimum of 4. This way, 8 player games would be good with 15 starting territories.

7 playes would get 18 = 4 troops, can't drop below 4.
6 players would get 21 = need to take 2 to drop to 19.
5 players would get 25 = need to take 2 to drop to 23.
4 players would get 31 = need to take 4 to drop to 27.
3 players would get 42 = need to take 3 to drop to 39.

How does this sound?
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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 4

Postby Tisha on Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:15 pm

natty_dread wrote:I wonder, why is the initial deployment problem never addressed by changing the troop reinforcements, especially on large maps like this?

When the map is this big, it would make sense to "scale up" the reinforcement specs as well.

For example, here we could specify that you'd get 1 troop for every 4 territories, with a minimum of 4. This way, 8 player games would be good with 15 starting territories.

7 playes would get 18 = 4 troops, can't drop below 4.
6 players would get 21 = need to take 2 to drop to 19.
5 players would get 25 = need to take 2 to drop to 23.
4 players would get 31 = need to take 4 to drop to 27.
3 players would get 42 = need to take 3 to drop to 39.

How does this sound?

sounds good, I just don't know xml sorta things..
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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 4

Postby natty dread on Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:22 pm

XML supports it, with the <reinforcements> tags.

viewtopic.php?f=466&t=23382#p1070531
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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 4

Postby MarshalNey on Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:58 am

natty_dread wrote:I wonder, why is the initial deployment problem never addressed by changing the troop reinforcements, especially on large maps like this?

When the map is this big, it would make sense to "scale up" the reinforcement specs as well.

For example, here we could specify that you'd get 1 troop for every 4 territories, with a minimum of 4. This way, 8 player games would be good with 15 starting territories.

7 playes would get 18 = 4 troops, can't drop below 4.
6 players would get 21 = need to take 2 to drop to 19.
5 players would get 25 = need to take 2 to drop to 23.
4 players would get 31 = need to take 4 to drop to 27.
3 players would get 42 = need to take 3 to drop to 39.

How does this sound?


Brilliant natty! Why didn't I think of that? #-o

You will have to add the changes to the map legend somewhere, but you have the space I think.

I will also point out that you'd only be able to have 1 neutral, as the numbers natty presented require 126 deployable regions.

In that case, some decision would have to be made about where the neutral would go, and what the Ships would do. You could make them part of no bonus, and note that on the legend. They still provide the benefit of quick travel from the Northern continent to the Southern.

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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 4

Postby natty dread on Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:23 am

No, my calculations were based on 127 but now that I check it they also work the same for 126.

125 would work with everything except 6 player games (starting with 20).

In other words, you'd either need to have no neutrals, only 1 neutral, or sacrifice 6 player games if you want 2 neutrals.

I would suggest only starting Nimiipuu as neutral, or none at all.
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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 4

Postby Tisha on Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:38 am

I'd prefer zero neutrals.. the neutrals where brought up in the previous map productions.
or I guess I could do one neutral on Nimiipuu, and the ships worth zero bonus.



How would I word the "1 troop for every 4 territories, with a minimum of 4"? just like that?
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Re: First Nations combined. Update pg. 4

Postby Ace Rimmer on Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:47 am

I like the 1 per 4, and I think the wording is fine. No neutrals, slim chance of dropping the +1 for plateau or dropping both ships, but not that big of a deal if it happens imho.
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