Three Kingdoms of Korea [Quenched]

[Riskismy]

Nods. Way better!

Edit: Oh, and thanks for the gimp tip
Hope you still play with the mice every now and then.

[natty dread]

I play with rodents all the time.

Anyway, I fixed some of the border lines, mainly that weird looking angle in Lelang, and redrew some smudgy ones. I don't want the borders to be too clean or uniform though, they should have that hand-drawn calligraphy look to them.

I also rearranged some territory labels slightly.

For now, I think that's all the graphical work I should do on this, I think it's time to focus more on the gameplay.

Click image to enlarge.

[Industrial Helix]

I wonder if you could make them cracked somehow. Kind of like when the screen print of a t-shirt comes off. I've tried to do that before in photoshop, but I just can't seem to swing it. If you put something over or under it, you end up having to drop the opacity. And I'm thinking of crisp black lines, but they're broken up and cracked. Not faded. Thoughts?

[natty dread]

Yeah, I did try something like that already. The problem is that if you apply it full force, it makes the map really unclear and hard to read. Also if it's only applied to borders but not to other colouring, it looks weird...

So there actually already is a layer of "wear" added to the map, but I had to adjust the opacity way down to keep the map readable.

Anyway, like I said, I think it would be best to address details like this in graphics.

[AndyDufresne]

I'm really digging this map. I'm glad to see the area finally in development. Nice work.


--Andy

[natty dread]

I'm really digging this map. I'm glad to see the area finally in development. Nice work.

Glad you like it!

[theBastard]

this yellow-brown colour for tang is good.
and the stripes, hm for me is everything pretty clear. and I must say, it is often when I need to read any maps several times to understand everything... lol

[natty dread]

Added bonus area names in chinese/korean writing.

Click image to enlarge.

[thenobodies80]

To be honest i prefer the map without the chinese or korean characters, but it's just my personal opinion.

[thenobodies80]

[natty dread]

To be honest i prefer the map without the chinese or korean characters, but it's just my personal opinion.

Yeah, let's discuss that again in graphics

Personally I think they bring some extra regional flavour to the map. I mean, if this was a real Korean map, all the territory names would be in chinese characters... but since we can't really do that, I think adding some chinese characters to the legend / title is a good compromise.

Thanks for the draft stamp (it's my first!) Now on to gameplay discussion.

[Industrial Helix]

Hooray!

I echo Natty's sentiments on the Chinese/Korean characters. I like them.

[Victor Sullivan]

Junks? Is that really what those boats were called? Strange... Anywho, before commenting on gameplay, I have to understand where you're coming from first: What is your reasoning behind the bonus structure? I must say, it's rather unique. And I assume the striped territories overlap bonus-wise?

[isaiah40]

Congrats natty & IH!!

[natty dread]

Thanks Isaiah.

Reasoning behind the bonus structure is that it reflects the political situation at the time.

IH wrote more about this, but here's the jist of it:

General Idea: Three Kingdoms Korea was primarily about proto-states evolving into full fledged empires. Hence, the importance of capitals in this bonus scheme. Strong holds indicate the importance of castles at the time. Almost everything is build your own bonus, giving players to ample opportunity to be creative in gametime solutions. Silla eventually conquered all of Korea, an remains the most powerful area on the map. Goguryeo has power, but slow growth. Japan and China's influences on Korea (and Korea's influences on them) are also reflected in this map.

[natty dread]

Ok, to get the gameplay discussion started, let's start with starting territories...

We have 45 territories total. Capitals and castles obviously need to start neutral, so that takes of 11... bringing it to 34. Gaya should have 2 neutrals at least to keep anyone from starting with the Gaya bonus. Wa is only 2 territories so maybe it should also have 1 neutral?

So this would bring the starting territories down to 31. Hm, 32 would be better, so is there anywhere we could add a territory?

Also...

I'm thinking Hanju ought to border Ungjin Baekje is a little bottled up there.

Sorry IH, I seem to have missed this. Maybe a bridge there?


edit: on the neutrals, perhaps we can make each gaya & wa territory into a starting position, so we wouldn't need neutrals there... but that's only 6 territories, so in 7 and 8 player games someone could still start with them... perhaps we could make some other 2 territories into starting positions?

[natty dread]

Bridge added: (I'll probably do a fancier bridge once we get to graphics)

Click image to enlarge.

Another possible solution for Wa/Gaya:

Set 2 neutrals in Gaya, 2 starting positions in Gaya and 2 starting positions in Wa. This way, in 2 player games, either both get a +1 bonus or neither one gets it. In 5-8 player games someone could still drop a bonus in either but it should be less likely in those games...

[Industrial Helix]

I just never drew in a connection for Hanju and Ungjin because I was unsure if I really wanted it at the time.

Well, the starting position thing isn't good because Wa has a negative bonus with any other capital... its not a the greatest spring board. Whereas Gaya doesn't have that and has a very quick opportunity to expand into the other Gaya territories as well.

Option A: Neutral 1s for Honshu
Option B: Starting positions in Wa and Gaya, 6 total.
Option C: not sure... I'm running out of ideas here for that.

[natty dread]

I just never drew in a connection for Hanju and Ungjin because I was unsure if I really wanted it at the time.

Well, the starting position thing isn't good because Wa has a negative bonus with any other capital... its not a the greatest spring board. Whereas Gaya doesn't have that and has a very quick opportunity to expand into the other Gaya territories as well.

right, didn't think of that...

So how about this: both Wa territories start neutral, 4 starting positions for Gaya?


Also, can we up the Wa bonus to 2? 1 seems a bit unattractive, no one will want to take it because you can't hold any capitals with it.


Hey, another option would be to change the Gaya bonus to +3 for all Gaya territories. It would be harder to get but it would give a better bonus, by 1.

[Riskismy]

I like the bonus scheme (that you don't absolutely have to have all territories to get a bonus). However, I'd rephrase the legend to read 'the capital', as opposed to naming each territory. Took me several minutes to locate the first territory and home in on the idea. It conveys the same idea, only now you don't have to look around the map (so much) to understand it.

[natty dread]

I like the bonus scheme (that you don't absolutely have to have all territories to get a bonus). However, I'd rephrase the legend to read 'the capital', as opposed to naming each territory. Took me several minutes to locate the first territory and home in on the idea. It conveys the same idea, only now you don't have to look around the map (so much) to understand it.

The problem with that is that it would suggest that you could hold any capital to get the bonus, when in fact you need to hold the matching capital of the area to get that area's bonus. With limited space in the legend, the current solution is the best I can see for now.

[Industrial Helix]

I like the bonus scheme (that you don't absolutely have to have all territories to get a bonus). However, I'd rephrase the legend to read 'the capital', as opposed to naming each territory. Took me several minutes to locate the first territory and home in on the idea. It conveys the same idea, only now you don't have to look around the map (so much) to understand it.

The problem with that is that it would suggest that you could hold any capital to get the bonus, when in fact you need to hold the matching capital of the area to get that area's bonus. With limited space in the legend, the current solution is the best I can see for now.

Maybe Natty can fit a little version of the capital icon in there after the territory name. Legend space is tight, but I'm just saying...

[AndyDufresne]

In the legend, since we are talking about it---could you make the number digits stand out more? Perhaps making them either slightly larger / in a different but similar font? The numbers kind of get lost in the font, since it is not a typical one. I think enhancing the numbers might also make for understanding the gameplay (the current topic of discussion) easier.


--Andy

[natty dread]

Maybe Natty can fit a little version of the capital icon in there after the territory name. Legend space is tight, but I'm just saying...

Well.. if I stretch the legend a bit, it should be doable.

In the legend, since we are talking about it---could you make the number digits stand out more?

Yes.

So IH, how about this idea:

- both Wa terts start with neutral 1:s
- Gaya is made into "hold all for +3" and starts normal

No starting positions, 32 starting territories.



Here's legend fixes:

Click image to enlarge.

[Industrial Helix]

I can live with Wa starting at neutral 1s.

I don't like the Gaya solution. Gaya needs to act like an early small bonus but not large enough to carry a player through a game.

I'm favoring 4 starting positions for Gaya.