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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby DiM on Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:00 am

congrats
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby perchorin on Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:05 am

isaiah40 wrote:Congrats natty!! Make sure I get that invite as well! :P

me too me too! Congratulations on a great looking map!
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:51 am

Invites will be flying! ;)
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:23 pm

The maps is live. Congrats natty! =D>
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby osujacket on Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:48 pm

nice map....

I have a hard time distinguishing which country is which based on the colors. I realize I may be the minority but I would prefer more of a distinction.

I dont like to have to think hard about where countries belong.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:18 pm

osujacket wrote:nice map....

I have a hard time distinguishing which country is which based on the colors. I realize I may be the minority but I would prefer more of a distinction.

I dont like to have to think hard about where countries belong.


Thanks.

I'm sorry you're having problems with the countries... you don't have colour blindness by any chance?

The countries are also labeled on the map... look for the larger text on the countries.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:36 am

Ok, since I've heard some complaint about the colours... here's a version with more vibrant colours on the bonuses...

Click image to enlarge.
image



Then, about the gameplay... something needs to be done. The 1st turn advantage is huge in 1v1, and whoever drops next to the Tang capital also has a huge advantage - since it's hard for others to reach.

The neutrals on the capitals need to be increased. I know IH wanted to have them low so they wouldn't be ignored, but as they are now they're basically making the game be decided by the drop, and I don't think that was the intention... I'm now in a 1v1 game that was basically over at round 2.

So I suggest Silla capital to be at least 4, maybe 5 - at the moment, Silla is a gamebreaker, you take one neutral 2 and you get an immediate +10 bonus.

Likewise, Tang capital should be increased to at least 4 or maybe 5 - if you drop next to it, you just take it and boom, you have a high bonus that's very hard for others to break.

Goguryeo's capital could be maybe 3. Others, Baekje & Gaya, are fine I think.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:40 am

Alternatively, we could reduce the bonuses drastically... either way, something should be done.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby b00060 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:57 am

The bonuses on this map are ridiculous. I was up against a 20 man to 3 bonus after ONE round because of the drop and secluded bonus. The kingdom Sila bonus HAS to be changed. This map is a no go anymore for me. The bonuses and access to break them are out of control ridiculous.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:48 am

Yes, I'm well aware of the situation, thanks. I think this map is going back to the drawing board.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:06 am

So, we need to either decrease the bonuses, or increase the neutrals on the capitals. Or both?

I suggest we start by increasing the neutrals, and then see if the bonuses need adjustment.

So... here's what I think for now:

- Silla: 6
- Tang: 5
- Goguryeo: 4
- Baekje & Gaya: 3

Or maybe leave Gaya at 2...
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby osujacket on Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:42 pm

natty_dread wrote:Ok, since I've heard some complaint about the colours... here's a version with more vibrant colours on the bonuses...

Click image to enlarge.
image



Then, about the gameplay... something needs to be done. The 1st turn advantage is huge in 1v1, and whoever drops next to the Tang capital also has a huge advantage - since it's hard for others to reach.

The neutrals on the capitals need to be increased. I know IH wanted to have them low so they wouldn't be ignored, but as they are now they're basically making the game be decided by the drop, and I don't think that was the intention... I'm now in a 1v1 game that was basically over at round 2.

So I suggest Silla capital to be at least 4, maybe 5 - at the moment, Silla is a gamebreaker, you take one neutral 2 and you get an immediate +10 bonus.

Likewise, Tang capital should be increased to at least 4 or maybe 5 - if you drop next to it, you just take it and boom, you have a high bonus that's very hard for others to break.

Goguryeo's capital could be maybe 3. Others, Baekje & Gaya, are fine I think.


I do not have color blindness issues...it was just hard for me. I dont like to have to think to figure out bonuses too much. I like that new version much better. Only other suggestion I would add was make silla a little more pink to distinguish it from Wa a little more. Its also acceptable at this point =D> =D> =D>

As far as the game play goguryeo currently gives much to big of bonus as you can get lots of them territories at the start.

I think your on the correct track.

=D> =D>
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:01 am

Ok, I talked with IH... here's what we ended up with for the neutrals -

Silla & Tang: 6
Goguryeo: 4
Baekje & Gaya: 3

So here are the new images (colour adjusted) and the new XML

korea4.xml
(66.34 KiB) Downloaded 49 times


Click image to enlarge.
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Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:02 am

the files were sent to Lack
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby DiM on Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:31 am

i've been pondering for a while weather i should post or not and i decided i definitely should. yes, i know people will start saying "map is already in beta", "where was i when this was in the graphics department? " etc.

but here goes:
1. borders all over the place have inconsistencies that look bad.
Image

2. the way mountains and borders are drawn makes me confused about some connections and especially on the small map i had to get help from BOB just to make sure a connection is really there. (see red marked areas on image bellow)

3. you forgot to erase some spots that had the border filling (see blue marked areas on image bellow)

4. some mountains are too evenly drawn they look rather bad. the ones in the north look much better (see green marked area on image bellow)

5. you should ask for a permission to make the small map a bit bigger. at least 650*650, even though i'd rather prefer 700*700. some terits are so small and easy to miss they could ruin your whole game. for example "tamma".

6. the colours for silla and tang are too alike in the legend. i can barely distinguish between them and i actually decided which is which because i followed the logic of the continent order.

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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:48 am

1. The borders are that way on purpose. I'm emulating a hand-drawn calligraphic style, and I've tried to make it look sort of imperfect at places, with the ink being worn or ran at places. It's supposed to be a 1500 year-old map after all.

2. Don't blame me, the foundry mods told me to connect the borders to the mountain lines. Far be it from me to go against the wishes of the foundry mods.

3. Those are lakes. Maybe I should have removed them, idk.

4. In that area there wasn't really room to go artistic with the mountains, so I had to make compromises.

5. Meh... I might have done it if you had asked that before the map was in beta. Now... unless there are some clear problems with the small map, with lots of people telling me things are too small in it, it stays as is. It's not like this is the tightest small map there is in play (refer to Napoleonic Europe...)

6. There are country names on the map to help with the distinction. The legend is really more decorative...
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby DiM on Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:18 am

natty_dread wrote:1. The borders are that way on purpose. I'm emulating a hand-drawn calligraphic style, and I've tried to make it look sort of imperfect at places, with the ink being worn or ran at places. It's supposed to be a 1500 year-old map after all.


fair enough. the effect is good in some places but i don't quite like it in others. however this is very subjective so i'll give credit to the map maker.

natty_dread wrote:2. Don't blame me, the foundry mods told me to connect the borders to the mountain lines. Far be it from me to go against the wishes of the foundry mods.


that's really silly. kaema was the first terit that popped in my mind when i looked at the map. i was 100% sure it was locked between mountains and i immediatelly looked at the legend to get an explanation.

natty_dread wrote:3. Those are lakes. Maybe I should have removed them, idk.


please remove them. i don't think anybody thinks they're lakes especially since there are just 4 of them. i doubt korea has just 4 lakes.

natty_dread wrote:4. In that area there wasn't really room to go artistic with the mountains, so I had to make compromises.


you can simply make the mountains a bit smaller or something. and alternate peaks left or right. or space then not so even. i'm not sure if you understand what i mean.

natty_dread wrote:5. Meh... I might have done it if you had asked that before the map was in beta. Now... unless there are some clear problems with the small map, with lots of people telling me things are too small in it, it stays as is. It's not like this is the tightest small map there is in play (refer to Napoleonic Europe...)


i have no idea if it is the tightest or not but in my opinion it deserves a bit more space.

natty_dread wrote:6. There are country names on the map to help with the distinction. The legend is really more decorative...


i saw the names but they aren't placed all over.
for example tamna is part of 2 bonuses. 1 is pretty clear because it's green (baekje) but the other is unclear unless i check the xml. judging just by colour it can be either wa or silla. of course getting it wrong is a mistake one will probably make just once but for some that might be enough to give up and never play the map again.


on a freestyle speed game on the small map i would probably make A LOT of mistakes because of the colours and the weird mountain borders and frankly no mistakes should be because of the way a map is designed.
on a standard normal game on large map it's a lot easier to see borders and terits and it's much better.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:34 am

DiM wrote:that's really silly. kaema was the first terit that popped in my mind when i looked at the map. i was 100% sure it was locked between mountains and i immediatelly looked at the legend to get an explanation.


Well, you can scroll back the thread to find the relevant posts. They specifically told me the borders should be connected to the mountains. I just did it to get the map in play.

DiM wrote:please remove them. i don't think anybody thinks they're lakes especially since there are just 4 of them. i doubt korea has just 4 lakes.


Yeah I'll do it for the next version.

DiM wrote:you can simply make the mountains a bit smaller or something. and alternate peaks left or right. or space then not so even. i'm not sure if you understand what i mean.


I get it, but... honestly, the mountains are already pretty small, and there's no "wiggle room" to alternate them left/right, otherwise I'd have done it. Also having them less even creates other problems, it makes them look sort of inconsistent...

Look, will you trust me if I say I've explored all of these options when the map was in development? I tried various different ways of creating those mountains. Some compromises had to be made, but this was the best solution available within the space I had.

DiM wrote:i have no idea if it is the tightest or not but in my opinion it deserves a bit more space.


I get it, but... there's so much work involved in resizing the image, redoing the coordinates etc. that I'm going to leave it unless I hear it causing problems. Let's give this one a chance at least.

DiM wrote:i saw the names but they aren't placed all over.
for example tamna is part of 2 bonuses. 1 is pretty clear because it's green (baekje) but the other is unclear unless i check the xml. judging just by colour it can be either wa or silla. of course getting it wrong is a mistake one will probably make just once but for some that might be enough to give up and never play the map again.


I'll see what I can do for this.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby DiM on Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:19 pm

natty, see my comments in our game chat Game 9444516
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:22 pm

natty_dread wrote:
DiM wrote:i saw the names but they aren't placed all over.
for example tamna is part of 2 bonuses. 1 is pretty clear because it's green (baekje) but the other is unclear unless i check the xml. judging just by colour it can be either wa or silla. of course getting it wrong is a mistake one will probably make just once but for some that might be enough to give up and never play the map again.


I'll see what I can do for this.


I responded to other comments on the game
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:02 pm

Next version...

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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby Obrens on Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:10 pm

Sorry to pop into the thread without reading any comments or even the first post, but I'm not color blind. And when I see this map I feel color blind. Definitely use some stronger colors or something.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:08 am

Oh yeah, I'm playing this map and its total BS... whoever designed the gameplay is an idiot. What about lowering castles to 2 neutrals and raising the capital neutrals up to the numbers previously mentioned.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:47 am

Industrial Helix wrote:Oh yeah, I'm playing this map and its total BS... whoever designed the gameplay is an idiot.


:lol:

What about lowering castles to 2 neutrals and raising the capital neutrals up to the numbers previously mentioned.


The update with increased capital neutrals has already been sent to lack. I agree with decreasing castles to 2... in fact I was going to suggest it myself. So let's put that in the next update.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby DiM on Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:43 am

i see there's still no change in the bonuses. that's the most important change if you want to balance this map.
silla and tang are simply absurd. and yes i know you planned on increasing the capital neutrals but that still doesn't solve anything. it just delays the inevitable. with more neutrals on capital you won't get the absurd bonuses on round 2 you'll get them in round 3 or 4.

right now holding the small tang island and another tang terit (liaoning) gives you +6 per turn for only 2 borders (liaoning and teng-chou) and even more, these 2 terits are connected so you can retake one of them with the army on the other. add the +3 from terit count and you get a whopping +9.

with silla is even worse.
if you get geumgwan + gyaongju + jinhan + yanju + ye + maecho + dongye you get +14 for just 2 borders. add +2 for getting also 2 fortresses there and the +3 from terit count and you have +19 for just 2 borders!!! WTF???

also besides bonuses i think some changes to borders are more than needed. but more on that after the bonuses are changed.
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