Three Kingdoms of Korea [Quenched]

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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby pamoa on Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:41 pm

:oops:
I meant left-right
pamoa wrote:you need to reorder both of your legends to help players to find bonus area
please follow the left-right top-bottom order

goguryeo
tang
baekje
silla
gaya
wa
Last edited by pamoa on Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
de gueules à la tour d'argent ouverte, crénelée de trois pièces et donjonnée d'un donjon ajouré, crénelé de deux pièces
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:22 am

Well, IH seems to be mysteriously missing..
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:33 am

Obrens wrote:Sorry to pop into the thread without reading any comments or even the first post, but I'm not color blind. And when I see this map I feel color blind. Definitely use some stronger colors or something.

Yes, not sure Natty if you saw my earlier comment on this same bit. I really really have a hard time telling which boats connect where. If you want to keep this washed-out style, maybe change the style of the boats somehow? I think you can still keep with the oriental sea theme and yet allow for some minor changes.. if not basic shapes, then perhaps symbols on the flags or some such?

I have not played it enough to comment on the actual play yet. If I see anything, I will comment once I have played more than 2 games.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:06 am

I'm well aware & those things are being addressed.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby The Bison King on Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:10 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Obrens wrote:Sorry to pop into the thread without reading any comments or even the first post, but I'm not color blind. And when I see this map I feel color blind. Definitely use some stronger colors or something.

Yes, not sure Natty if you saw my earlier comment on this same bit. I really really have a hard time telling which boats connect where. If you want to keep this washed-out style, maybe change the style of the boats somehow? I think you can still keep with the oriental sea theme and yet allow for some minor changes.. if not basic shapes, then perhaps symbols on the flags or some such?

I have not played it enough to comment on the actual play yet. If I see anything, I will comment once I have played more than 2 games.

I think preserving the style is more important than preserving the faded quality of the map (which is subservient to the style). I think the over all visual theme of the map wouldn't suffer from a slight boost in color though (which I don't think is completely necessary but could be helpful).

I'm in a similar boat where I can't yet comment on the gameplay. I'm only i 1 game at about round 4, but it seems like we've already hit a point where if you don't already have a castle and it's lands you are completely screwed.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby Nola_Lifer on Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:24 pm

I think you need just one more mountain drawn in between hanju and sangju. It hard to tell they aren't connected. :)
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby DiM on Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:25 pm

you have fortress on the map but castle in the legend. could use some consistency.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Ok, this is getting to the point that I'm wondering whether the best solution would be to take the map down, throw it back to gp and continue from there...
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:59 pm

natty_dread wrote:Ok, how about these bonuses:

Tang: +2 for 3
Seems better, but maybe change 1 boat from Teng-chou to Yantai to open a new border on the peninsula
Silla: +1 for 1
Still too much I'm afraid, I'd make it +1 for 2
Goguryeo: +1 for 2
seems good
Baekje: +1 for 3
seems good
Gaya: +1 for 2
seems good


On a side note, I'd like to suggest adding an extra feature to Wa owners. These bonus (terrs) are extremely unappealing as they stand now, what if from there you could bombard all capitals ?

The Wa owner wouldn't be a bonus builder, but a bonus destructor that can put all capitals in check. I'd also raise that bonus to 3...
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:06 pm

Kabanellas wrote:On a side note, I'd like to suggest adding an extra feature to Wa owners. These bonus (terrs) are extremely unappealing as they stand now, what if from there you could bombard all capitals ?

The Wa owner wouldn't be a bonus builder, but a bonus destructor that can put all capitals in check. I'd also raise that bonus to 3...


I'm afraid that won't do at all, that would go totally against the theme of the map...

Your comments on the bonuses sound good to me. IH seems to have vanished mysteriously though...
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:14 pm

natty_dread wrote:I'm afraid that won't do at all, that would go totally against the theme of the map...


You probably right, but the game-play would benefit a lot from it and the Wa owner would have a chance of accomplishing something on the map. ;)

...is Helix on vacations?
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:16 pm

Kabanellas wrote:
natty_dread wrote:I'm afraid that won't do at all, that would go totally against the theme of the map...


You probably right, but the game-play would benefit a lot from it and the Wa owner would have a chance of accomplishing something on the map. ;)

...is Helix on vacations?


I don't know. He's missing his turns, hasn't logged in for a couple of days.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby DiM on Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:25 pm

Kabanellas wrote:
natty_dread wrote:I'm afraid that won't do at all, that would go totally against the theme of the map...


You probably right, but the game-play would benefit a lot from it and the Wa owner would have a chance of accomplishing something on the map. ;)

...is Helix on vacations?


i'm with kabanellas on this one. regardless of historical accuracy i too think that Wa should be able to bombard capitals.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby The Bison King on Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:38 pm

natty_dread wrote:Ok, this is getting to the point that I'm wondering whether the best solution would be to take the map down, throw it back to gp and continue from there...

:-k But isn't there an advantage to being able to test changes as they are implemented?
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:53 am

DiM wrote:i too think that Wa should be able to bombard capitals.


No. Just, no. It goes against all principles of this map. It's like saying that europe should be able to bombard australia in classic. I'd rather take the map down and rehaul the whole gameplay than do that.

No bombardments.

The Bison King wrote::-k But isn't there an advantage to being able to test changes as they are implemented?


Maybe so, but beta-testing shouldn't be a place where the gameplay is tested on the public. The gameplay should be mostly done, and only require fine-tuning...
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby Kabanellas on Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:52 am

natty_dread wrote:No. Just, no. It goes against all principles of this map. It's like saying that europe should be able to bombard australia in classic. I'd rather take the map down and rehaul the whole gameplay than do that.


could you find some way of making that Wa region usable... The problem is that anyone that owns those terrs will be stuck in a dead end, you just can't afford to destroy another player bonus by taking their capital.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:05 am

On the other hand, consider that by taking another's capital and a few territories you can easily get a bonus that more than offsets the -4...

But ok, maybe we should change the Wa bonus.

How about making it so that Wa only gives a +3 bonus if you don't hold any capitals, if you hold a capital it gives no bonus and no penalty?
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:42 am

Ok, here's the new images - I'll get working on the new XML.

I decided to keep Silla as 1/1 - making it 1/2 would not be good since that would make it too weak in comparison, it should be the strongest bonus. It will still have the most neutrals on the capital so that should offset it somewhat.

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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby DiM on Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:17 am

natty_dread wrote:No. Just, no. It goes against all principles of this map. It's like saying that europe should be able to bombard australia in classic. I'd rather take the map down and rehaul the whole gameplay than do that.


natty_dread wrote:I decided to keep Silla as 1/1 - making it 1/2 would not be good since that would make it too weak in comparison, it should be the strongest bonus.


i understand that you want historical accuracy. but sometimes that makes for a terrible gameplay. it's like saying china on the classic map should give a +20 just because it represents a huge power (economical and military). image how would classic map play if china had a +20 bonus.
or giving europe +100 and africa 1 simply because there's a huge economical and military difference between them.

map making guide wrote:Function trumps form - The style of the graphics should not detract from ease of play: borders should be clear, titles and numbers easy to read, colors easy to distinguish, etc...

Form must follow function - So important it's on the list twice! Expect to show some flexibility and be prepared to move away from complete geographical accuracy or historical authenticity: the look and theme of the map must be utterly subservient to gameplay and legibility.


so keeping silla at +1 for each terit is still a bad idea. somebody that gets dongye maecho ye yanju gyaongju and geumgwan will have to defend just 2 borders and get a total bonus of +10 (6 from silla bonus, 1 for fortress, 3 for total number of terits)
if you make it +1 for each 2 terits, then that person will get +7 which is still pretty darn big in my opinion.

natty_dread wrote:On the other hand, consider that by taking another's capital and a few territories you can easily get a bonus that more than offsets the -4...


not really that easy. and in a 1v1 game he who goes for WA loses. while he struggles to cope with the -4 the opponent simply gets another capital and then another and so on and he'll always have the edge.
on games with more players you might accomplish something if the others are ignoring you.

natty_dread wrote:How about making it so that Wa only gives a +3 bonus if you don't hold any capitals, if you hold a capital it gives no bonus and no penalty?


this might work. it makes the strategy for Wa a bit odd but it definitely could work. one would have to start taking terits before taking a capital so that his bonus doesn't suffer from one turn to another but it would be ok.

but strictly from a gameplay point of view i think kabanellas' suggestion with the bombardment would fit perfectly. yeah it would be historically inaccurate and absurd but the gameplay would be so much better.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby pamoa on Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:05 am

pamoa wrote:you need to reorder both of your legends to help players to find bonus area
please follow the left-right top-bottom order

goguryeo
tang
baekje
silla
gaya
wa
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby Kabanellas on Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:12 am

Silla at 1 per 1 is too much I'm afraid... :-s

Natty, without wanting to go against your strong beliefs for this map, which I do respect a lot. I'd just like to add that being an history lover (and a fan of historical maps) I do juggle a bit with historical accuracy to benefit the game-play. The Third Crusade is a good example of that. There was no Kingdom of Jerusalem on the Third Crusade (1192), as it was overrun by Saladin's forces in 1187 remaining only a couple of cities and fortified posts. Nevertheless I wanted it to appear on the map turning history into fiction: what if the Kingdom of Jerusalem was rebuilt in the Third Crusade. Also, France's borders weren't exactly as such as they appear but far more scattered, England owned Aquitaine but for a matter of gameplay those possessions were limited to Normandy...

Anyway your suggestion for the Wa bonus is better than what we have now for sure.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:24 pm

DiM wrote:so keeping silla at +1 for each terit is still a bad idea. somebody that gets dongye maecho ye yanju gyaongju and geumgwan will have to defend just 2 borders and get a total bonus of +10 (6 from silla bonus, 1 for fortress, 3 for total number of terits)
if you make it +1 for each 2 terits, then that person will get +7 which is still pretty darn big in my opinion.


Let's just see how it works. Remember that we're having increased neutrals on the capitals, which will make Silla harder to take. If it's still too powerful, so that it unbalances the map, we'll think of something.

DiM wrote:strictly from a gameplay point of view i think kabanellas' suggestion with the bombardment would fit perfectly. yeah it would be historically inaccurate and absurd but the gameplay would be so much better.


I disagree. Gameplay isn't just about making things fair and even, or making the map work as a game - I believe the gameplay should also suppport the theme of the map: if a gameplay mechanic works, but makes no sense thematically, then it is not good gameplay. Ideally, a good gameplay does both: works to provide a fun experience to players, and also integrates the map thematically.

pamoa wrote:you need to reorder both of your legends to help players to find bonus area
please follow the left-right top-bottom order


I considered this, but decided against - the names of the bonus areas are written on the map, so no one should have any problems finding them. For the lower legend, it's easier to word and more intuitive by having Wa first, but I did reorder the rest to follow the order you mentioned. As for the upper legend, I suppose I could put it in the same order as the lower one. Although the current order looks better aesthetically, as the chinese text forms a neat horizontal pyramid.

Kabanellas wrote:Natty, without wanting to go against your strong beliefs for this map, which I do respect a lot.


I don't really have strong beliefs as such... IH designed the gameplay, I gave him pretty much free hands while only offering a few suggestions here and there. IH seems to be gone, and the map needs to be fixed, so I'm working on it for now... I just don't want to go too much against the ideas & designs IH had for the map.

Look, if the 1 for 1 for silla doesn't work, we can change it in the next update. No big deal.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby DiM on Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:51 pm

natty_dread wrote:
DiM wrote:so keeping silla at +1 for each terit is still a bad idea. somebody that gets dongye maecho ye yanju gyaongju and geumgwan will have to defend just 2 borders and get a total bonus of +10 (6 from silla bonus, 1 for fortress, 3 for total number of terits)
if you make it +1 for each 2 terits, then that person will get +7 which is still pretty darn big in my opinion.


Let's just see how it works. Remember that we're having increased neutrals on the capitals, which will make Silla harder to take. If it's still too powerful, so that it unbalances the map, we'll think of something.


increasing neutrals on capitals won't work. the bonus is much too big and increasing the neutrals only makes a person get the bonus a bit later in the game. probably just by 1 round or 2. so instead of getting a +7 from round 1 he'll get it in round 2. then expand and get the +10 in round 3.

natty_dread wrote:
DiM wrote:strictly from a gameplay point of view i think kabanellas' suggestion with the bombardment would fit perfectly. yeah it would be historically inaccurate and absurd but the gameplay would be so much better.


I disagree. Gameplay isn't just about making things fair and even, or making the map work as a game - I believe the gameplay should also suppport the theme of the map: if a gameplay mechanic works, but makes no sense thematically, then it is not good gameplay. Ideally, a good gameplay does both: works to provide a fun experience to players, and also integrates the map thematically.


disagree all you want but the map making guide is very clear on this matter:
Function trumps form - The style of the graphics should not detract from ease of play: borders should be clear, titles and numbers easy to read, colors easy to distinguish, etc...

Form must follow function - So important it's on the list twice! Expect to show some flexibility and be prepared to move away from complete geographical accuracy or historical authenticity: the look and theme of the map must be utterly subservient to gameplay and legibility.


yes ideally the gameplay and the theme go hand in hand and fit perfectly but clearly this is not the situation here. so i honestly don't care that Silla was a powerful kingdom or that Wa can't bombard if that means the map is unplayable. and frankly that's what it is right now. take a look at 1v1 games where players get 20+ bonuses by round 3. that's bad.

you need to drastically reduce the bonuses and create more borders in some areas perhaps by adding junks.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:45 pm

I am NOT going to add bombardments to the map.

There's absolutely no reason to add bombardments to the map. None.

As for your other complaint,

natty_dread wrote: if the 1 for 1 for silla doesn't work, we can change it in the next update. No big deal.


Now can we get the f*ck on with it.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [4 Jul 2011]

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:03 am

natty_dread wrote:I am NOT going to add bombardments to the map.

There's absolutely no reason to add bombardments to the map. None.

I'd agree that I don't think bombardments would be very fun with this map.


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