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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v4.3

Postby natty dread on Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:52 am

Ok, to get the gameplay discussion started, let's start with starting territories...

We have 45 territories total. Capitals and castles obviously need to start neutral, so that takes of 11... bringing it to 34. Gaya should have 2 neutrals at least to keep anyone from starting with the Gaya bonus. Wa is only 2 territories so maybe it should also have 1 neutral?

So this would bring the starting territories down to 31. Hm, 32 would be better, so is there anywhere we could add a territory?

Also...

IH wrote:I'm thinking Hanju ought to border Ungjin Baekje is a little bottled up there.


Sorry IH, I seem to have missed this. Maybe a bridge there?


edit: on the neutrals, perhaps we can make each gaya & wa territory into a starting position, so we wouldn't need neutrals there... but that's only 6 territories, so in 7 and 8 player games someone could still start with them... perhaps we could make some other 2 territories into starting positions?
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v4.3

Postby natty dread on Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:11 am

Bridge added: (I'll probably do a fancier bridge once we get to graphics)

Click image to enlarge.
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Another possible solution for Wa/Gaya:

Set 2 neutrals in Gaya, 2 starting positions in Gaya and 2 starting positions in Wa. This way, in 2 player games, either both get a +1 bonus or neither one gets it. In 5-8 player games someone could still drop a bonus in either but it should be less likely in those games...
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v5

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:11 am

I just never drew in a connection for Hanju and Ungjin because I was unsure if I really wanted it at the time.

Well, the starting position thing isn't good because Wa has a negative bonus with any other capital... its not a the greatest spring board. Whereas Gaya doesn't have that and has a very quick opportunity to expand into the other Gaya territories as well.

Option A: Neutral 1s for Honshu
Option B: Starting positions in Wa and Gaya, 6 total.
Option C: not sure... I'm running out of ideas here for that.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v5

Postby natty dread on Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:02 am

Industrial Helix wrote:I just never drew in a connection for Hanju and Ungjin because I was unsure if I really wanted it at the time.

Well, the starting position thing isn't good because Wa has a negative bonus with any other capital... its not a the greatest spring board. Whereas Gaya doesn't have that and has a very quick opportunity to expand into the other Gaya territories as well.


#-o right, didn't think of that...

So how about this: both Wa territories start neutral, 4 starting positions for Gaya?


Also, can we up the Wa bonus to 2? 1 seems a bit unattractive, no one will want to take it because you can't hold any capitals with it.


Hey, another option would be to change the Gaya bonus to +3 for all Gaya territories. It would be harder to get but it would give a better bonus, by 1.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v5

Postby Riskismy on Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:53 pm

I like the bonus scheme (that you don't absolutely have to have all territories to get a bonus). However, I'd rephrase the legend to read 'the capital', as opposed to naming each territory. Took me several minutes to locate the first territory and home in on the idea. It conveys the same idea, only now you don't have to look around the map (so much) to understand it.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v5

Postby natty dread on Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:20 pm

Riskismy wrote:I like the bonus scheme (that you don't absolutely have to have all territories to get a bonus). However, I'd rephrase the legend to read 'the capital', as opposed to naming each territory. Took me several minutes to locate the first territory and home in on the idea. It conveys the same idea, only now you don't have to look around the map (so much) to understand it.


The problem with that is that it would suggest that you could hold any capital to get the bonus, when in fact you need to hold the matching capital of the area to get that area's bonus. With limited space in the legend, the current solution is the best I can see for now.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v5

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:16 pm

natty_dread wrote:
Riskismy wrote:I like the bonus scheme (that you don't absolutely have to have all territories to get a bonus). However, I'd rephrase the legend to read 'the capital', as opposed to naming each territory. Took me several minutes to locate the first territory and home in on the idea. It conveys the same idea, only now you don't have to look around the map (so much) to understand it.


The problem with that is that it would suggest that you could hold any capital to get the bonus, when in fact you need to hold the matching capital of the area to get that area's bonus. With limited space in the legend, the current solution is the best I can see for now.


Maybe Natty can fit a little version of the capital icon in there after the territory name. Legend space is tight, but I'm just saying...
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v5

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:38 pm

In the legend, since we are talking about it---could you make the number digits stand out more? Perhaps making them either slightly larger / in a different but similar font? The numbers kind of get lost in the font, since it is not a typical one. I think enhancing the numbers might also make for understanding the gameplay (the current topic of discussion) easier.


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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v5

Postby natty dread on Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:40 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:Maybe Natty can fit a little version of the capital icon in there after the territory name. Legend space is tight, but I'm just saying...


Well.. if I stretch the legend a bit, it should be doable.

AndyDufresne wrote:In the legend, since we are talking about it---could you make the number digits stand out more?


Yes.

So IH, how about this idea:

- both Wa terts start with neutral 1:s
- Gaya is made into "hold all for +3" and starts normal

No starting positions, 32 starting territories.



Here's legend fixes:

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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v6

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:01 pm

I can live with Wa starting at neutral 1s.

I don't like the Gaya solution. Gaya needs to act like an early small bonus but not large enough to carry a player through a game.

I'm favoring 4 starting positions for Gaya.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v6

Postby natty dread on Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:58 am

Industrial Helix wrote:I can live with Wa starting at neutral 1s.

I don't like the Gaya solution. Gaya needs to act like an early small bonus but not large enough to carry a player through a game.

I'm favoring 4 starting positions for Gaya.


But that wouldn't solve 5-8 player games.

If we could add 2 territories somewhere, then we could make 2 Gaya territories neutrals...
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v6

Postby natty dread on Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:28 am

...or, we could just add 2 Gaya neutrals and settle for 30 starting territories.
I mean, it's not like you have to play this with more than 6 players... ;)
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v5

Postby Riskismy on Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:59 am

natty_dread wrote:
Riskismy wrote:I like the bonus scheme (that you don't absolutely have to have all territories to get a bonus). However, I'd rephrase the legend to read 'the capital', as opposed to naming each territory. Took me several minutes to locate the first territory and home in on the idea. It conveys the same idea, only now you don't have to look around the map (so much) to understand it.


The problem with that is that it would suggest that you could hold any capital to get the bonus, when in fact you need to hold the matching capital of the area to get that area's bonus. With limited space in the legend, the current solution is the best I can see for now.


Come now. Only a complete fool or noob would think that you could hold just any capital and get the bonus, when you have one line for each bonus region, as well as mentioning the name of that region.

oh, I really like the changes to the font of the legend. Much more legible now.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v5

Postby natty dread on Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:15 am

Riskismy wrote:Come now. Only a complete fool or noob would think that you could hold just any capital and get the bonus, when you have one line for each bonus region, as well as mentioning the name of that region.


No, that's not good enough. We can't make an unclear legend and assume that the players will "get it", it needs to be unambiguous in all aspects.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v6

Postby Riskismy on Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:43 am

If the players are clever enough to use a browser, they'll understand what the bonus scheme is just fine, even with just 'the capital' - in fact, I posit they'll understand it much better and not least faster.
Personally, I don't care. I (finally) figured it out. I just figured you'd like to make it easier on your players.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v6

Postby natty dread on Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:48 am

Nope, the current solution is much better.

We have capital symbols there, which lets the players know what is going on, and we also have the capital names, refering to the exact territories, so players will know for sure which territory they need.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v7

Postby natty dread on Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:28 pm

Ok, after discussing all the options, here's what me & IH decided:

- 2 new territories added: Tanma and ? (name to be decided)
- Gaya gets a capital, which is also required to get the Gaya bonus
- Cosmetic changes: lands moved a bit

As for neutrals, now there's 47 territories, of which 5 capitals, 7 castles and 2 Wa-territories start neutral, giving us 33 starting territories, and absolutely no chances to drop any bonuses. 2 player games start with 11 each, 8 player games start with 4 each, rest are something in between...

Here's v7:

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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v7

Postby Victor Sullivan on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:08 pm

I thought we decided Wa to be +2...? Seems like a good idea to me, given the deficit, and considering Castles yield +1 for just a single territory. As for the other bonuses, they seem quite out-of-balance - +2 for each territory with a capital?? I mean, given Tang and the easily defensible Quingdao, (not to mention how may territories Tang has (9), that's a potential +17 for just six borders) it just seems over powered. Comments for the other bonus areas:

  • Wa - Some further comments - Why the -4? And won't Wa cause problems if somebody takes it over to start then wants to spread out? Who's gonna take that negative bonus once the Wa guy has a capital? I suppose it could work, but I feel you may have issues with stranded players.
  • Gaya - given all of its territories are striped, those territories are gonna have value to other players, so a +1 for 1 seems warranted, especially given none of those territories are easily guarded. And, since there are only 3 territories plus the capital, one can only get a maximum +1 out of it, as it stands.
  • Silla - Now thinking about it... I think a +2 per 1 with capital can work, given its position and the striped territories and whatnot. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.
  • Goguryeo - This is good. It allows for more action in the northern and north-eastern portions of the map, that would otherwise be largely ignored.
  • Baekje - Given the castles, I think the bonus will work here.
  • Tang - I think I covered all my concerns with this area already. My suggestion is +1 for 1.

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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v7

Postby natty dread on Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:33 am

since there are only 3 territories plus the capital, one can only get a maximum +1 out of it, as it stands.


Why do you think the capital isn't included?

Both castles and capitals do count towards area bonuses. (I think.)

Anyway, all other points are good, I would support these changes:

Wa = +2
Tang = +3 for 2
Gaya = +1 for 1
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v7

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:52 pm

natty_dread wrote:
since there are only 3 territories plus the capital, one can only get a maximum +1 out of it, as it stands.


Why do you think the capital isn't included?

Both castles and capitals do count towards area bonuses. (I think.)

Anyway, all other points are good, I would support these changes:

Wa = +2
Tang = +3 for 2
Gaya = +1 for 1


Wa... yeah. i can get behind that so long as it still retains that -4 for holding any capital with the bonus.
Tang... I can get behind that as well. Tang needs to be a strong area, but perhaps I might have over done it.
Gaya... I'm not liking it. I don't like the idea of Gaya being a good place to hole up and use as a base of operations. I think it make Gaya too powerful. Their historical function was to be a weak confederacy that was absorbed by Baekje and Silla, the map ought to reflect this towards the middle part of the game.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v7

Postby natty dread on Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:02 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:
Anyway, all other points are good, I would support these changes:

Wa = +2
Tang = +3 for 2
Gaya = +1 for 1


Wa... yeah. i can get behind that so long as it still retains that -4 for holding any capital with the bonus.
Tang... I can get behind that as well. Tang needs to be a strong area, but perhaps I might have over done it.
Gaya... I'm not liking it. I don't like the idea of Gaya being a good place to hole up and use as a base of operations. I think it make Gaya too powerful. Their historical function was to be a weak confederacy that was absorbed by Baekje and Silla, the map ought to reflect this towards the middle part of the game.


Well, I think Gaya would still be relatively weak, due to small size and each territory being a border. But I also understand your reasoning, so I'll go ahead and change Tang & Wa.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v7

Postby natty dread on Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:16 pm

Wa&Tang changed.. also added some more wear to the edges of the map:

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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v7.1

Postby theBastard on Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:44 am

I think you coud do more opacity to goguryeo, gaya, tang, baekje. the wa is much more visible as these. and especialy gaya is hard to see. look at bon-gaya region for example.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v7.1

Postby natty dread on Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:55 am

I can't make all colours equally dark. That would not work for the colourblind people. With colourblind filters on, some colours looked the same, so some differences in lightness needed to be added to the colours.

There shouldn't be any visibility problems. All colours are visible. Or do you mean something else?
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea v7.1

Postby theBastard on Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:54 am

I did not say darker. I said more opacity.
when you think all colours are good visible go with current version. your map. just goguryeo seems realy too light. and in bon-gaya are stripes enclosed by green sail and capital icon...
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