Three Kingdoms of Korea [Quenched]

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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby greenoaks on Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:11 am

natty_dread wrote:
greenoaks wrote:the Geumgwamgaya territory is rather pointless stuck behind the 8-stack at Gyeongju


Gyeongju is 4 now.

i thought i read that above but my games are still showing it as 8.

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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby natty dread on Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:47 am

greenoaks wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
greenoaks wrote:the Geumgwamgaya territory is rather pointless stuck behind the 8-stack at Gyeongju


Gyeongju is 4 now.

i thought i read that above but my games are still showing it as 8.

Game 9622238


Your games were started before the latest update. Neutral values for already started games do not change when the map is updated. When you start a new game it will be 4.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby greenoaks on Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:19 am

natty_dread wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
greenoaks wrote:the Geumgwamgaya territory is rather pointless stuck behind the 8-stack at Gyeongju


Gyeongju is 4 now.

i thought i read that above but my games are still showing it as 8.

Game 9622238


Your games were started before the latest update. Neutral values for already started games do not change when the map is updated. When you start a new game it will be 4.

that's a shame, i keep getting that territory :( i don't think i'll be starting any games this week, next week for sure.

this map has a real left/right split to it. is that a historical thing ?
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby natty dread on Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:23 am

I'm not sure what you mean by a left/right split...
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby greenoaks on Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:43 am

natty_dread wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by a left/right split...

the ports on the left connect to the ports on the left. the ports on the right connect to the ports on the right.

Teng Chou connected to Gyeongju but i've never seen it used because of the 8 stack.

that left Teng Chou to Donggokjeo as the only port connection from left to right to circumvent to two land bottlenecks at Leland/Salsu & up north at Donghuyeo.

the reduction of Gyeongju to 4 may encourage more to attack it from Teng Chou but that still leaves only 3 ways into the left side of the map from the right
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby natty dread on Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:54 am

Well, the sea connections are mostly based on historical facts. For example, Silla was allied with Tang (which wasn't really a part of Korea, but is included because of that association) so the direct sea connection between them fits. The yellow junks between mainland Tang and Tang's Korean holdings also make sense...

On the other hand, having sea connections on the same side of the peninsula is only logical, in that seafaring wasn't very advanced at that point in time, and it was easier to travel shorter distances rather than long ones, by sea.

From a gameplay perspective, a lot of the connections are designed to keep the map from being too bottlenecked.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby bfgray on Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:32 pm

Hi. I hope this is the appropriate place to raise such a concern... I just want to say that I've played this map a few times and it's awesome, but it absolutely sucks for colourblind people like myself. Thanks to the labelling and the borders, I can more or less guess which regions belong to which kingdoms (still haven't figured out what kingdom Gaya is shared with though!), but the junks had me really confused for a long time, sorry. I got myself into a spot a couple of times because I misread the connections.

So, I don't know if it's too much to ask for you to go for colours that are a little more distinctive? The washed-out colours on this map make it very attractive, but also confusing.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby natty dread on Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:00 pm

I'm not sure if anything can be done with the colours. The Jpeg format in which the maps are hosted on the site reduces the colour depth considerably, which means the colours will be somewhat washed out no matter what I do to them.

Bon-gaya is shared with Baekje, the rest with Silla.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby natty dread on Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:13 pm

I could crank up the saturation to compensate for the jpeg colour loss, not sure how well that'd work... something like this:

Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby greenoaks on Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:11 am

i'm not colour-blind and i also had some problems with those colours. anything you could do to make it easier to tell them apart would be great.

i turn on bob when i play it so i don't screw up but it would be good if i didn't feel unsure of which ports connected. although the more i play the map the more confident i feel about it.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby natty dread on Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:14 am

How about the image in my previous post
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby Seamus76 on Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:38 am

I like that new image. I'm a big fan of the map, and like the dark aspect, but it is a little too dark even for me. I think those new colors would not only lighten the map, but still work with the style and theme, as even the warriors wore bright colors such as gold and red, etc.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby greenoaks on Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:08 am

the brown of Silla is much easier to see, i like the green of Baekje, it works better with the colours of Silla and Goguryea.

i think it would be better if Tang stood out more in the shared areas. it does look better, just not as good an improvement as the other colours.


in an earlier post you said

this is Three Kingdoms of Korea, or Korea 57-668AD but it's not just Korea.


i know CC has recently chnged the name in the database to 3 kingdoms but i was wondering if you have considered at any point putting those years on your map. i know it is a historical map and what period in time because you told me so but Korea (and Korean history) is not well known and so i think most people here would not immediately recognise it for what it is like we might a map such as American Civil War or 13 Colonies.

i say this because when i first saw this map i thought wow, Korea is map up of 3 kingdoms. i still don't know if Korea is currently made up of 3 kingdoms (much like Australia has 6 states and the USA has 50 states) or if that is a thing of the past.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby natty dread on Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:37 am

greenoaks wrote:i know CC has recently chnged the name in the database to 3 kingdoms but i was wondering if you have considered at any point putting those years on your map.


I don't think so... the map doesn't depict any certain time, it's more a general depiction of the Three Kingdoms era which spans several centuries... therefore I don't think adding those years on the map would add much to the map.

Anyway, here's a version with increased saturation and contrast. I separated the map to chroma/luminance channels and applied saturation to chroma only, and contrast to luminance only. This increases the difference between the colours and should improve legibility.

Note that these are png:s, so the final jpeg image will still be a little less saturated.

Click image to enlarge.
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Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby natty dread on Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:43 am

Here are the same as 94% quality jpeg:s.

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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby DiM on Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:23 am

why 94%? lack takes your pngs and saves them as 80% quality jpgs.


unless he changed his habit since i left but i highly doubt it since most of the maps look washed up and blurry once they're uploaded.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby natty dread on Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:56 am

DiM wrote:why 94%? lack takes your pngs and saves them as 80% quality jpgs.

unless he changed his habit since i left but i highly doubt it since most of the maps look washed up and blurry once they're uploaded.


Well some maps are compressed less - I think he does it on a case-by-case basis. For example, King's court's large image is almost 250kb, or around 88-90%.

I've sent communications upwards to find out the size limits for map images, so I can handle the compression myself and optimize the colours for that level of compression.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby DiM on Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:16 am

what? that's absurd. why would a map get better treatment than others?

btw the large korea was reduced at 80% i just checked :))

wow. i just realised my mogul map was reduced from a 831k PNG to a 174k GIF. a gif? wtf?

and we actually bother to scope every pixel and fix the smallest imperfections to get that perfect png only to get it reduced to a 256 colours gif. :evil:
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby natty dread on Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:48 am

DiM wrote:what? that's absurd. why would a map get better treatment than others?


Beats me.

wow. i just realised my mogul map was reduced from a 831k PNG to a 174k GIF. a gif? wtf?

and we actually bother to scope every pixel and fix the smallest imperfections to get that perfect png only to get it reduced to a 256 colours gif. :evil:


Hey, you're preaching to the choir, man. I've long been wondering why we bother to have any graphics standards in the first place, or why we bother demanding mapmakers to spend any effort to the map graphics, since the maps get compressed to garbage anyway...

I've tried to campaign for increasing the size allowance for map images, since most people have faster connections now than they had in 2006, and map images are cached in the browser anyway... but so far the results have been lacking (no pun intended).
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby natty dread on Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:25 am

Here's what the map looks like at 80%.

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Original PNG for comparison:

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One has to wonder... is the speed gained by a 100kb size difference (between a 95% and 80% jpg) really worth the loss of quality?
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby bfgray on Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:43 am

I'm a bit late but I just want to say the colours in the new pictures you've put up are much easier to see. I still think putting green and brown next to each other (Silla/Baekje) was not an inspired choice from a visibility point of view, but I wouldn't expect you to change that at this late stage.

The junks are much less confusing now, thanks.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby natty dread on Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:47 pm

I've been wondering, if I could just set all capitals to 3 neutrals... Multiplayer games probably won't notice either way, if they have to take a 3 or 4... and for team games, it could just make them useful again.

Anyone have input for this...?
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby greenoaks on Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:20 pm

i've not played any team or even multi-person games on this map. it's all 1v1 for me.

i just want you to know i am not ignoring you, i just have no experiences to share.

for the record i like the reduction to 4 from 8. those terits are now in play.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:58 am

the gameplay changes look pretty good, imo.

Though I did discover something while in Japan... the term Wa is a racist term used by the Chinese against the Japanese... it means essentially "the midget barbarians" and was a large cause of the war between Japan and China in 1894-5 because China insisted on referring to the Japanese as Wa in diplomatic exchanges.

So in the name of avoiding war between Japan and conquer club and possibly myself or Natty_Dread I suggest changing the word Wa to Yamato
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Re: Three Kingdoms of Korea [15.8.11]

Postby natty dread on Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:31 pm

Well, far be it from me from wanting to support oriental racism... I'll get to work on updating the images and XML.
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