Golfe Du St. Laurent

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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby Orange-Idaho-Dog on Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:43 pm

^ Agree 100%, something needs changed. In my team game, team one was dropped 2 bonuses (Labrador & Great North) minus one territory. By round 2 they had both and were unbreakable.
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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby ender516 on Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:57 am

Well the obvious simple changes are, first, putting a neutral in each of the 3-region bonus zones (New Brunswick, Newfoundland, and Labrador). But that still leaves a 2% chance of anyone in a 3-player game dropping a 4-region bonus zone, and there are three of them: Great North, Est Du Quebec and Nova Scotia. So, perhaps a neutral in each of those as well?
Starting positions might work too, but my first few checks on possible combinations seem to lead to 1v1 games where players start with 12 regions, which is a bad number, as it is too easy for the first player to take one region and reduce the second player's deployable troops.
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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby danfrank on Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:50 am

i haven`t played this map yet , and i may have said this before but this map shows that we need more female map makers ! This map is so graphically pleasing and by that i mean , the colors and shading are so easy to look at , while the cupid and flowers in the corners add that special touch. Great Job Tisha and i hope to see more maps from you in the near future :mrgreen:
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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby danfrank on Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:02 am

ender516 wrote:Well the obvious simple changes are, first, putting a neutral in each of the 3-region bonus zones (New Brunswick, Newfoundland, and Labrador). But that still leaves a 2% chance of anyone in a 3-player game dropping a 4-region bonus zone, and there are three of them: Great North, Est Du Quebec and Nova Scotia. So, perhaps a neutral in each of those as well?
Starting positions might work too, but my first few checks on possible combinations seem to lead to 1v1 games where players start with 12 regions, which is a bad number, as it is too easy for the first player to take one region and reduce the second player's deployable troops.



How about starting with ten terts each on a 2 player game.. i am not too fond of this type of game mechanics , starting positions mean what ? neutrals ? or places where players may have a starting territory . and neutral starting territories are always starting neutral regardless of the amount of players or do these factors change with the amount of players involved ?
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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby Orange-Idaho-Dog on Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:54 am

I haven't even looked in to singles on the map yet. But I know team games are gonna be a problem. Maybe the more players, the better the chance of the bonuses being split up. But the game I mentioned earlier was lost from the drop (literally, not just an excuse for losing..)
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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby Tisha on Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:56 pm

What's three neutral territories going to do to the territory count?
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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby ender516 on Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:23 am

I am working on some calculations using MrBenn's Bonus Spreadsheet, but it is too late to finish and post them tonight. Probably inside of 24 hours.
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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby HighlanderAttack on Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:03 am

I love this little map--might be too easy to get bonus, but it is a nice little 1v1 map for sure. I might make the bonus structure one less on each bonus region, but I might not change anything either. Great job--love it
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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby ender516 on Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:17 am

Okay, here are some tables to help with the discussion about neutrals and starting positions. These were all produced using MrBenn's Bonus Probability Calculator spreadsheet.

First, the status quo:

Click image to enlarge.
image


As you can see, the probability of someone dropping a bonus are quite high.

Next, if we put a neutral into each 3-region bonus zone (Labrador, Newfoundland, and New Brunswick):

Click image to enlarge.
image


With this arrangement, we are no longer concerned with the probabilities of 3-region zones. Things are better, but the chance of dropping one of the 4-region bonus zones is still significant.

Now, if we put one neutral in each of those regions (Great North, Nova Scotia, and Est Du Québec):

Click image to enlarge.
image


Again this looks better, but we must consider the problem that the 3 non-neutral regions of one of those zones could be easily dropped on one player, who could then get that bonus easily in the first round. This is not strictly counter to foundry guidelines, but it might still make for poor gameplay. In fact, the 3-region zones with one neutral each could also be easily taken by a player dropping the two non-neutrals.

Now, using starting positions can ensure that small zones are well split up, so that they cannot be taken too easily on the first turn.

For example, Labrador, Newfoundland, and New Brunswick can be distributed among three starting positions:

Click image to enlarge.
image


In order to prevent two-player games from starting with 12 regions per player (which puts the second player at a disadvantage for his first deployment), these starting positions must use regions that are "underlying neutrals", that is, that start neutral if they are not distributed to a player, which happens with one of the three starting position sets when playing 1v1, and for all starting positions in games with 4 or more players.

We still have a significant chance of dropping Great North, Nova Scotia, and Est Du Québec. So let's throw them into the starting positions. Just taking one region from each zone can actually make things worse, by making the situation more like a 3-region zone, which is relatively easy to drop, combined with the 1/3 chance that the starting position matches and gives that player the whole bonus. Let's look at taking two out of each of those zones:

Click image to enlarge.
image


With this setup, we ensure that the 4-region zones are not dropped, but I believe we are making it quite likely that someone will have 3 out of 4 regions in one of these zones.

Also, the probability of someone dropping the 5-region zone, Duplessis, is now on the rise.

I have no more time to explore this tonight, but will present some more possibilities soon.
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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby pamoa on Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:35 am

I used starting position in Austerlitz for all three territories bonus zone
it doesn't reduce the number of initial territories you get
it just force the repartition
so no one get two territories out of a three bonus zone
which is an even and elegant solution
in a 2 player game you have one red one green one neutral
as in such games territories are always splitted in 3

Code: Select all
<positions

<position><territory>Suchet</territory>
<territory>Pratzen</territory></position>

<position><territory>Kellerman</territory>
<territory>Skolnitz</territory></position>

<position><territory>Caffarelli</territory>
<territory>Telnitz</territory></position>

</positions>
De gueules à la tour d'argent ouverte, crénelée de trois pièces, sommée d'un donjon ajouré, crénelé de deux pièces

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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby greenoaks on Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:30 am

i just started my first game on this map and i wasn't impressed.

the other player dropped a bonus, got most of the other bonus and i got neutrals between me and those bonuses. game over.

reading the last few posts this seems like it could be a regular thing. rare i could handle but this doesn't seem likely as is.
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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby natty dread on Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:40 am

pamoa wrote:in a 2 player game you have one red one green one neutral
as in such games territories are always splitted in 3


Starting positions are divided by 2 in 2 player games, so using starting positions does change the drop for 2-player games.With 3 starting positions, each player gets 1 position and the 3rd position is distributed regularly with the other territories. With 34 territories on the map, this would mean that each would start with 12 territories in a 2-player game, so it won't work for 2-player games.
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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby Tisha on Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:28 am

Sorry I'm clueless about gameplay. I am reading all this, just clueless as of how to fix it..
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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby ender516 on Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:59 am

I am coming to the conclusion that MrBenn's Bonus Calculator can produce misleading values when starting positions become involved. I believe it does calculate the right number of territories in the pot, but somehow as I increase the number of territories in starting positions, the likelihood of dropping larger bonuses increases, which is counter-intuitive, since the number of territories in the pot is going down. Again, I have run out of time this evening, but I may try working around the quirks in the calculator and coming out with more rational numbers soon.
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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:17 pm

Tisha wrote:Sorry I'm clueless about gameplay. I am reading all this, just clueless as of how to fix it..


Tisha you have only to code 3 regions to start neutral, maybe Goose Bay, Saint John and Avalon Peninsula.
In this way you'll have 31 regions at the start, that is a good number, and a just a 2% that any player start with a 4 regions bonus.
Starting positions are not necessary in this case.

Tisha wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:Blue numbers are a bit hard to see on Cape Breton, I suggest to move the coords few pixels down, where you have a lighter color.

http://h1.ripway.com/Tisha1276/Golfe.xml

better?


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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby ender516 on Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:02 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:
Tisha wrote:Sorry I'm clueless about gameplay. I am reading all this, just clueless as of how to fix it..

Tisha you have only to code 3 regions to start neutral, maybe Goose Bay, Saint John and Avalon Peninsula.
In this way you'll have 31 regions at the start, that is a good number, and a just a 2% that any player start with a 4 regions bonus.
Starting positions are not necessary in this case.

Oh, I thought the guideline was to get the probability of a bonus on the drop down to 1%, but if 2% is okay, then yes, 3 neutrals is probably best.
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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby Coleman on Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:25 pm

I ran the math because I can't help myself. It seems with the 3 neutrals suggestion that the chance would be comprable to Classic which is the most worked on and optimized map of all time. Seems unreasonable IMO trying to hold you to a higher standard than that, plus this map looks really slick to me, I love 30ish territory maps.
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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby DiM on Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:37 pm

coleman giving feedback on a map. after such a long time. is this a one time only occasion or are you back in the foundry? :)
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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby Coleman on Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:04 pm

DiM wrote:coleman giving feedback on a map. after such a long time. is this a one time only occasion or are you back in the foundry? :)

I don't want to derail the topic away from Tisha's amazing map but I am going to have a go at checking around from time to time again.

@Tisha, It looks like you have a solid XML person but it seems you may be aprehensive about the neutrals suggestion (or I am completely misreading the convo which is 1000% possible). If you need any help let me know.
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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby Tisha on Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:17 pm

Coleman wrote:
@Tisha, It looks like you have a solid XML person but it seems you may be aprehensive about the neutrals suggestion (or I am completely misreading the convo which is 1000% possible). If you need any help let me know.

it is nice to see you aroundColeman, (:

I'm my xml person. I really dislike neutrals on a map, but understand that the games on the map can be decided before you even get a first turn.. :?
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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby Coleman on Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:21 pm

Tisha wrote:I really dislike neutrals on a map, but understand that the games on the map can be decided before you even get a first turn.. :?


My game on this map was not so bad. It seems that the +2 bonus regions are so well connected to the surrounding areas that keeping them can be very difficult. Unfortunately this somewhat makes the whole map built around constantly breaking the small bonus regions which isn't the gameplay I expected/wanted. But even placing a neutral in each place wouldn't solve this 'problem' it would just delay it by a turn or so.

Starting positions work in such a way that if you did 9 single territory start positions the rest of the territories would be randomly distributed but this would lead to neutrals in 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 person games. It would guarantee nobody would start with a whole region 4 players and up and prevents the neutrals that do appear from always being in the same place.

The two problems with this.
1) Tisha doesn't want to do any of this. Which I completely understand. It almost seems unfair because I remember other maps where this could happen that we didn't stop. Balkan Peninsula comes to mind and the lucky drops on that map are even more defensible. Doodle Earth did enter a period of development hell over it but eventually released with the possibility still in play.
2) The +2 bonuses make up 9 of the total territories so this wouldn't solve for the occurrence in 2 and 3 player games. Although one could argue that those are never fair on most maps anyway, so meh.
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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:07 pm

Coleman wrote:It seems that the +2 bonus regions are so well connected to the surrounding areas that keeping them can be very difficult.


I agree. In addition I've looked again at the numbers, I don't think that 8,27% (3p -any player)or 5,51% (2p - any player) are so big values.
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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby Tisha on Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:20 pm

out of my games, I have only had one where I can say the guy won it before I had even taken a turn.... which I have had on plenty different maps.
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Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby jefjef on Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:30 am

Very nice map!

New Brunswick - considering it's location + number of border terts + the terts that have to be defended just to hold it probably should be a +3.
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Tournament Contribution (3)

Re: Golfe Du St. Laurent

Postby MrBenn on Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:49 pm

Quench it already :P
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PB: 2661 | He's blue... If he were green he would die | No mod would be stupid enough to do that
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Lieutenant MrBenn
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Posts: 7051
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:32 am
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Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (2)
General Achievement (6) Clan Achievement (1) Map Contribution (7) Tournament Contribution (2) General Contribution (15)

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