Rorke's Drift. [QUENCHED]

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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:35 am

Here is the mock up. To be honest, I am not liking it for a few reasons. But my main problems are the patchwork effect on the land. This area of Africa is not like this, it is large open plains with the same type of ground for miles and miles. Secondly, do we really need every map to be the same? Once the bonus values have been worked out, it becomes a bog standard map that the foundry can produce with it's eyes shut. A few gimmicks like the 150 yard line, the neutral centre and the winning condition that now holds no meaning.
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The chieftains have been taken care of, with the 5 neutrals and the 6 drop for 1v1, you have the 9 to 5 rolls. Seems bad but with good dice, they can be taken. With the front line at 3 neutrals, the player going second can and should be able to knock out that chieftain. I see no reason to change the map again just because in a minority of games, players either cannot get a chieftain, knock the other player out of the captured chieftain or do not read the legend and work out a strategy.

As for the WC though, the centre has 44 neutrals on it. As the battle is played out by the Zulus, it would make far more sense to have the whole of the outpost as the WC. This is a 6 border with 9 attacking territs. No one will take it in round 1. Any objections to that?
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby greenoaks on Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:26 am

i am not familiar with the formula for determining starting terits so i'm just going to throw my question out there - will adding these additional neutral chieftains alter the starting terits?

i'd also like to mention:-
1. your mockup doesn't have a chieftain on Nhlakaniph
2. i look at the colours on this map as being the areas troops supporting different chieftains are camped, for me it is nothing to do with terrain

that being said Siyanda looks like a real stretch from its current chieftain
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:41 am

Yep, the extra neutrals will effect the starting positions.
I know about the missing chieftain, just to damn lazy to put him in after I came out of gimp.
The colours may represent the areas to which each chieftain has, but it still makes a map that looked good into a map that looks like a piece of crap.

Going to change the winning condition and leave it at that for now.
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:37 am

Can I get some feedback on this before going forward with the small and xml changes.

Changes.
Winning condition is now the whole of the outpost. That is 42 neutrals with 6 openings. No one is going to take that first round (even with great dice). It brings the winning condition back to the maps original objective - beat the British.
British front line. Now get a +1 auto deploy. The same as the chieftains but without the bonuses.
New bonus. Hold both British commanders for a +3 bonus. That is 24 neutrals to kill for +3 so it is a late bonus. Should it go higher?

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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA] New map Pg 62. Feedback wanted.

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:51 am

New map and xml files. Changes detailed previous post.
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http://www.fileden.com/files/2012/1/27/3255536/drifting.xml
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA] New map + xml pg 62.

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:37 pm

Sent to lackattack and players informed about the changes. ;)
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA] New map + xml pg 62.

Postby skids32 on Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:40 pm

My first time commenting -

1. Excellent work - enjoyable to look at and play (helps that I love the Zulu movies)

2. You asked for feedback -

Winning condition is now the whole of the outpost. That is 42 neutrals with 6 openings. No one is going to take that first round (even with great dice). It brings the winning condition back to the maps original objective - beat the British.
Like it - back to beating British

British front line. Now get a +1 auto deploy. The same as the chieftains but without the bonuses.
Great idea

New bonus. Hold both British commanders for a +3 bonus. That is 24 neutrals to kill for +3 so it is a late bonus. Should it go higher?
Suggest at least +5 - are you trying to go for a "hold the line, build strength, and then go for the win" kind of thing or a balance between holding the line or going for a bigger bonus with the inner two officers?
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA] New map + xml pg 62.

Postby Avi8or on Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:22 pm

Great map! I concur with the proposed changes.
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:32 pm

Thanks nobodies for that.

Thanks for the comments guys. The +3 may be about right as it is a late bonus. Do not want to give the outpost away too easily. But lets get a few games played to see what this is like and then I can increase it to the +5 if needed. But right now, I think I am over the moon about this map now.
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:16 am

I'm not thrilled about the bombardments.

It's bad from both a historical accuracy perspective and from a right-now gameplay perspective.

From a historical accuracy point of view, those rifles simply weren't that accurate at long range. Sure, they could occassionally peg off an enemy half a mile away, but not with enough frequency to seriously damage an enemy formation.

From the right-now point of view, it basically means that once someone gets a hold of a British position, anyone who doesn't have one is doomed unless they can take it from him in one turn. There isn't any safe area where you can hang back, lick your wounds for a while, and launch a fresh offensive.

That was one of the things I liked about this map, and now it's gone.
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:32 am

Dukasaur wrote:I'm not thrilled about the bombardments.

It's bad from both a historical accuracy perspective and from a right-now gameplay perspective.

From a historical accuracy point of view, those rifles simply weren't that accurate at long range. Sure, they could occassionally peg off an enemy half a mile away, but not with enough frequency to seriously damage an enemy formation.

From the right-now point of view, it basically means that once someone gets a hold of a British position, anyone who doesn't have one is doomed unless they can take it from him in one turn. There isn't any safe area where you can hang back, lick your wounds for a while, and launch a fresh offensive.

That was one of the things I liked about this map, and now it's gone.

The problem and comments I was getting though was if you go second in a 1v1 game, the drop can give first player a chieftain and a great start. I had no options open with positions to correct this so the only logical way was to give the second player a chance to kill the chieftain. The bombardments have been in place now for a month since he map came back into live play. That is not new to this change.

As for the historical perspective, you are right, the rifle was not accurate but it did win the day for the British. One of the best quotes from the film is near the end.
Colour Sergeant Bourne: It's a miracle.
Lieutenant John Chard: If it's a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer Henry point 45 caliber miracle.
Colour Sergeant Bourne: And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind.


Sorry, but it stays in for now. ;)
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby thenobodies80 on Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:09 pm

The new version was uploaded. :)
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby Fazeem on Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:40 pm

I will give it a try like the last new one hopefully these improvement bring back some of the enjoyment of the previous pre messing with version
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby thenobodies80 on Mon May 21, 2012 2:31 pm

Last Call

If anyone has any other comments on tweaking the gameplay/graphics, now is the time to speak up! If there are no other concerns within the next couple of days, this map will be quenched!

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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby wobbles-grogan on Tue May 22, 2012 10:32 am

Hi there.

We're currently in a game on this map, thouroughly enjoying it.

Some concerns:

Are the british front line too OP? They can bombard ALL the chieftans, so a large player could feesibly take just one of them, put all his troops on it, and take out everyones bonuses in one fell swoop.

Maybe it would be better if the front line were only allowed bombard two chieftans, and only the ones that he is facing (So Allen on the top-right of the building can bombard the Cetshwayo and Ndaba, and similar the whole way around the building)

Just an idea, it just seems a small bit OP at the moment. Although, maybe im playing badly :-)
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby koontz1973 on Tue May 22, 2012 10:53 am

wobbles-grogan wrote:Hi there.

We're currently in a game on this map, thouroughly enjoying it.

Some concerns:

Are the british front line too OP? They can bombard ALL the chieftans, so a large player could feesibly take just one of them, put all his troops on it, and take out everyones bonuses in one fell swoop.

Maybe it would be better if the front line were only allowed bombard two chieftans, and only the ones that he is facing (So Allen on the top-right of the building can bombard the Cetshwayo and Ndaba, and similar the whole way around the building)

Just an idea, it just seems a small bit OP at the moment. Although, maybe im playing badly :-)

I had the same idea a while ago when this map went through the major changes. Discarded it as it would of made the map even more complicated for new players. It is not that you are playing it wrong, but the guys who have the front line, are just having a better time of it for now. With the chieftains +1 auto deploy, goes some way to remove this advantage had to be found so the front line became the ideal way to remove this. In small games, the first player with a chieftain, won the game. Depending on your spoils, the chieftain will always win the day between the two. As soon as players realise that someone is taking the spoils away, they tend to attack on mass.
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby The Voice on Tue May 22, 2012 12:09 pm

I can't wait! I love this map.
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:23 am

              Quenching

---It was an hell, but the Beta period has concluded for the Rorke's Drift Map. All objections have had their time. The Foundry and I hereby brand this map with the Foundry Brand. Let it be known that this map is now ready to be released into live play.

Congratulations koontz1973, your shiny new medal is well-earned =D>


Conquer Club, enjoy!
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:43 am

thenobodies80, my humblest thanks to you. And to everyone else that helped me on this map including all of the boys in blue.
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby crazymilkshake5 on Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:51 am

=D> =D> =D> Gratz! =D> =D> =D>
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [QUENCHED]

Postby Flapcake on Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:23 pm

Dear koontz, congratulation with your quenched map =D> \:D/
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [QUENCHED]

Postby Leehar on Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:09 am

Did the win condition change? Originally it was just the 2 officers? Now it's all british?
Did the neutrals stay the same then? I think going through 25 neutrals(12 each +1 in between) just to get a measly +3 is useless? specially since it's no longer for the win?
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [QUENCHED]

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:25 am

Leehar wrote:Did the win condition change? Originally it was just the 2 officers? Now it's all british?
Did the neutrals stay the same then? I think going through 25 neutrals(12 each +1 in between) just to get a measly +3 is useless? specially since it's no longer for the win?

The win condition did change to all of the outpost and some neutrals did change as well to accommodate the new gameplay. This was done way back in beta though when the map was locked.

Goes to show how long it is since your last game on it was then. :P
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [QUENCHED]

Postby Leehar on Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:15 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
Leehar wrote:Did the win condition change? Originally it was just the 2 officers? Now it's all british?
Did the neutrals stay the same then? I think going through 25 neutrals(12 each +1 in between) just to get a measly +3 is useless? specially since it's no longer for the win?

The win condition did change to all of the outpost and some neutrals did change as well to accommodate the new gameplay. This was done way back in beta though when the map was locked.

Goes to show how long it is since your last game on it was then. :P

Indeed, although I have fond memories of that last game http://www.conquerclub.com/player.php?submit=Search&&mp[0]=201&hr=N&p1=leehar&p2=koontz1973&p2=koontz1973&so=page=1

You changed it up to avoid more crushing defeats ;)

Did you ever get to see if the outpost bonus was used?
koontz1973 wrote:Thanks nobodies for that.

Thanks for the comments guys. The +3 may be about right as it is a late bonus. Do not want to give the outpost away too easily. But lets get a few games played to see what this is like and then I can increase it to the +5 if needed. But right now, I think I am over the moon about this map now.
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [QUENCHED]

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:19 pm

Leehar wrote:Did you ever get to see if the outpost bonus was used?

It was never even on a playable map. Shame that and if I ever did another one like this, I might just try to keep that in.
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