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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V3 - pg.1&2

Postby DiM on Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:04 pm

i'm pretty satisfied with SteamWorks right now.
i'd appreciate some feedback on gameplay.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V3 - pg.1&2

Postby cairnswk on Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:24 pm

DiM wrote:i'm pretty satisfied with SteamWorks right now.
i'd appreciate some feedback on gameplay.

When i saw anchors and what appear to be different continents, i thought AoM again. I could be wrong, but thought you were aiming for something different.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V3 - pg.1&2

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:38 pm

At a quick glance, I'm not entirely confident that you can have an objective be killer neutral, as I believe the killer neutral goes into effect before the objective.

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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V3 - pg.1&2

Postby DiM on Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:11 pm

cairnswk wrote:
DiM wrote:i'm pretty satisfied with SteamWorks right now.
i'd appreciate some feedback on gameplay.

When i saw anchors and what appear to be different continents, i thought AoM again. I could be wrong, but thought you were aiming for something different.


graphically speaking there could be similarities and that would not be a problem. after all AoM is placed in a fictive 18-19th century world while Steamworks is placed in a fantasy 19th century. so design-wise surely some things will be very similar. i just add pipes, steam, some cogs, perhaps some blueprints of a weird contraption and voila...steampunk :)
last night i got the idea to make some floating landmasses in a sort of isometric view and unite them via zeppelins and floating ships. that would truly be steampunk.
the only problem is that i can't possibly fit that into the current map size. so either i get approval for a supersize map or i reduce the number of terits.

i will try to present a different version later tonight.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V3 - pg.1&2

Postby DiM on Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:12 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:At a quick glance, I'm not entirely confident that you can have an objective be killer neutral, as I believe the killer neutral goes into effect before the objective.

-Sully


i hate xml destroying or limiting all my plans :evil:
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V3 - pg.1&2

Postby isaiah40 on Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:50 pm

DiM wrote:the only problem is that i can't possibly fit that into the current map size. so either i get approval for a supersize map or i reduce the number of terits.


Well, why don't don't you post one with your ideas, and if people like it, then I'm sure we can approve the extra pixels for it to work. ;)
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V3 - pg.1&2

Postby Industrial Helix on Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:39 pm

We need territory names for this to pass on.

Other than that, balloon has two l's.

And we need a value for how much is lost with more than 1 steam.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V3 - pg.1&2

Postby DiM on Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:53 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:We need territory names for this to pass on.

Other than that, balloon has two l's.

And we need a value for how much is lost with more than 1 steam.



i'm currently redesigning the whole map. i'm remaking the borders, rethinking the bonuses improving the steampunk theme by using a historical location (even if it is from an alternate reality). i will post something when i'm finished.
oh, and the map is now 1000*1000px
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V3 - pg.1&2

Postby DiM on Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:07 pm

V4 comes with a big update
Done:
*new terits (40) - a fantasy England torn apart by Evil Dr.DiM (:P) from his laboratory in Oxford.
*new bonuses - (need discussing)
*various artwork
*map is now playable by up to 8 people

to do:
*i still need to add some lines and various artwork on the map itself (some ships, waves, dragons, etc) to make it even more realistic.
*balance gameplay - discuss bonuses
*get permission for current size

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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V4 - pg.1&3 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby natty dread on Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:46 am

Does "Engine + 2 steam = loss" mean that you're out of the game if you hold them?

Hm. What if you hold 2 engines and 2 steams, will that cancel the effect of "blown engine" or are you still out of the game?

Either way, I'm not sure if it'll work - the losing condition is coded as a set of territories you need to hold to stay in the game...
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V4 - pg.1&3 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:58 am

natty_dread wrote:Does "Engine + 2 steam = loss" mean that you're out of the game if you hold them?

Hm. What if you hold 2 engines and 2 steams, will that cancel the effect of "blown engine" or are you still out of the game?

Either way, I'm not sure if it'll work - the losing condition is coded as a set of territories you need to hold to stay in the game...


the idea is that if you have more steam than engines you lose the game.
if that can't be coded then i guess i could do a negative bonus. something like:
7 engine + 1 steam = +7
...
3 engine + 1 steam = +3
2 engine + 1 steam = +2
1 engine + 1 steam = +1
1 engine + 2 steam = +0
1 engine + 3 steam = -1
...
1 engine + 7 steam = -5

would that be possible?
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V4 - pg.1&3 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby natty dread on Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:05 am

Yeah I don't think the losing condition can be coded like that. The losing condition works by having a list of sets of territories/continents in the xml, and you need to hold x of these sets on any given time to stay in the game. So it's really more based on losing a territory rather than holding one.

The negative bonus is doable, it just needs quite a bit of coding - you need to enter all combinations of steam and engine amounts in the xml as individual bonuses.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V4 - pg.1&3 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:07 am

natty_dread wrote:Yeah I don't think the losing condition can be coded like that. The losing condition works by having a list of sets of territories/continents in the xml, and you need to hold x of these sets on any given time to stay in the game. So it's really more based on losing a territory rather than holding one.

The negative bonus is doable, it just needs quite a bit of coding - you need to enter all combinations of steam and engine amounts in the xml as individual bonuses.


ok, thanks for the input. i'll do the negative bonuses instead.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V4 - pg.1&3 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby zimmah on Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:09 pm

Too bad losing conditions like that are not (yet) possible, but i'm quite sure it's possible to get a negative bonus (i'm not sure what happens to the game if someone happens to end up with -1 armies to deploy tho). i have done something simular in operation drug war but it still required quite a bit of code. the only difference is that in ODW i didn't have negative numbers as far as i remember but the idea is the same.

something along the lines of "when you hold X amount of steam and X amount of engines you get X bonus" should be perfectly possible and not even too hard.

The map and gameplay look promising, i like the idea of risking to die (or losing your extra resources) while taking the objective (much like oasis, but still completely different). The paper looks very realistic now too, however the colors seem to be floating above the paper instead of actually being written on the paper, maybe you could try to blend them in a bit. This is especially visible at the limegreen, red, yellow and purple lines, slightly less so on the other bright colors. Also, the steam on the regions might be hard to see for people with eyeproblems, maybe you should think about those people too and try to find a solution for ti without destroying the graphics too much. The limegreen island is currently overpowered (bonus of 5 and only 1 border)
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V4 - pg.1&3 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:10 pm

zimmah wrote:Too bad losing conditions like that are not (yet) possible, but i'm quite sure it's possible to get a negative bonus (i'm not sure what happens to the game if someone happens to end up with -1 armies to deploy tho). i have done something simular in operation drug war but it still required quite a bit of code. the only difference is that in ODW i didn't have negative numbers as far as i remember but the idea is the same.

something along the lines of "when you hold X amount of steam and X amount of engines you get X bonus" should be perfectly possible and not even too hard.

The map and gameplay look promising, i like the idea of risking to die (or losing your extra resources) while taking the objective (much like oasis, but still completely different). The paper looks very realistic now too, however the colors seem to be floating above the paper instead of actually being written on the paper, maybe you could try to blend them in a bit. This is especially visible at the limegreen, red, yellow and purple lines, slightly less so on the other bright colors. Also, the steam on the regions might be hard to see for people with eyeproblems, maybe you should think about those people too and try to find a solution for ti without destroying the graphics too much. The limegreen island is currently overpowered (bonus of 5 and only 1 border)


thanks for the input zimmah. the bonuses are totally debatable i just threw around some numbers to get a feel of what it might look. so if anybody has bonus suggestions feel free to voice them and we'll have a chat.

i know that the colours don't quite blend in. i could easily do that but i'm afraid they might not be so well to distinguish. on the other hand having those colours is not really that important because people can easily identify the regions from the minimap mock-up so i could even take them out altogether.
i will also make the steam from the regions much more visible.

in the meantime i'd love to hear gameplay feedback from everybody. what bonuses should i place, what connections should i add/remove what terits should have engines/steam/etc?
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V4 - pg.1&3 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby ender516 on Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:41 pm

zimmah wrote:... (i'm not sure what happens to the game if someone happens to end up with -1 armies to deploy tho). ...

There is a failsafe in the code such that regardless of calculated bonuses, you always have at least one troop to deploy on each round.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V4 - pg.1&3 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby Victor Sullivan on Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:43 pm

First, I must say your map is simply stunning! Second, I must say that I do see some problems gameplay-wise:
  • The continent names need to be more prominent; I don't even see one for the blue island.
  • The island bonuses definitely need adjustment:
    • Blue: +1 (4 territories, 1 border)
    • Orange: +1 (5 territories, 1 border)
    • Red: +2 (6 territories, 2 borders)
    • Yellow: +2 or +3 (7 territories, 2 borders)
    • Magenta: +2 or +3 (7 territories, 2 borders)
    • Brown: +1 (5 territories, 1 border)
    • Green: +1 (5 territories, 1 border)
    • (Remember each will receive an additional +1 for holding the engine and steam)
  • That being said, I think movement overall has been stifled on this map. No island should have only one border, and I'd even argue 2 is a little small. I suggest that each island should have one port and one balloon and Oxford should be able to bombard the whole map. I realize this may be a bit extreme, but I think these adjustments will improve the gameplay fourfold. Oxford would be a little more involved, as it wouldn't just be a piece of the objective, it could be used strategically as a way to break bonuses (and you could really screw someone over by bombarding someone's engine and overloading their other with steam, if they had 2 and 2) and it would be a great tool for fog games. Since Oxford doesn't assault anything, I think it balances out the power.
  • If each island were to have one port and one balloon, I'd make the bonus changes as follows:
    • Blue: +2 (4 territories, 2 borders)
    • Orange: +2 (5 territories, 2 borders)
    • Red: +2 or +3 (6 territories, 2 borders)
    • Yellow: +3 (7 territories, 2 borders)
    • Magenta: +3 (7 territories, 2 borders)
    • Brown: +2 (5 territories, 2 borders)
    • Green: +2 (5 territories, 2 borders)
  • If Oxford's bombardment power were implemented, too:
    • Blue: +2 (4 territories, 2 borders, 4 bombardments)
    • Orange: +3 (5 territories, 2 borders, 5 bombardments)
    • Red: +4 (6 territories, 2 borders, 6 bombardments)
    • Yellow: +5 (7 territories, 2 borders, 7 bombardments)
    • Magenta: +5 (7 territories, 2 borders, 7 bombardments)
    • Brown: +3 (5 territories, 2 borders, 5 bombardments)
    • Green: +3 (5 territories, 2 borders, 5 bombardments)
  • I imagine engines, steam and Oxford will start neutral? That's 24 deployable, so that's decent. I'd suggest neutral 2's on the steam and engines, or 1 on steam and 2 on engines, to promote using those bonuses instead of early eliminations in 7-8 player games. And maybe 5 neutral on Oxford?
This is great work, DiM, I am very excited about this map :)

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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V4 - pg.1&3 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby zimmah on Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:59 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:First, I must say your map is simply stunning! Second, I must say that I do see some problems gameplay-wise:
  • The continent names need to be more prominent; I don't even see one for the blue island.
  • The island bonuses definitely need adjustment:
    • Blue: +1 (4 territories, 1 border)
    • Orange: +1 (5 territories, 1 border)
    • Red: +2 (6 territories, 2 borders)
    • Yellow: +2 or +3 (7 territories, 2 borders)
    • Magenta: +2 or +3 (7 territories, 2 borders)
    • Brown: +1 (5 territories, 1 border)
    • Green: +1 (5 territories, 1 border)
    • (Remember each will receive an additional +1 for holding the engine and steam)


wouldn't 1-border islands become slightly more rewarding if you also count the steam+engine then? because a +2 bonus on 1 border sounds much more interestng then a +3 bonus on 2 borders to me, or am i seeing this wrong?


/// nvm i should learn to read the complete post before replying,

i very much lke the ideas of extra borders and oxfort being able to bombard the whole map. (why didn't i think of that?)
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V4 - pg.1&3 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:52 am

great input. many thanks.
will get right on it and post an updated version later today.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V4 - pg.1&3 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:51 am

V5:

DONE:
*steam icons are more visible
*removed continent names
*better blended the continent colours
*changed bonuses
*oxford can bombard any territory
*added ports and balloons to each continent
*each engine and steam will start with 2 neutral
*oxford starts with 5 neutral

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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V4 - pg.1&3 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:57 am

I love it! :D ...though you no longer have names for your bonus areas! Maybe you misunderstood me, but I meant make the continent name text more readable and add one for the blue island. Also, you should adjust the colors on the mini map as well.

-Sully
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V4 - pg.1&3 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:05 am

Victor Sullivan wrote:I love it! :D ...though you no longer have names for your bonus areas! Maybe you misunderstood me, but I meant make the continent name text more readable and add one for the blue island. Also, you should adjust the colors on the mini map as well.

-Sully


i decided to remove the continent names because they were not essential. continents can be easily identified via the colours and now the map is less cluttered. as for the legend i didn't adjust the colours because they become to hard to see. or at least i start having difficulties seeing them :) if other people want it i could easily change those colours too.


PS: what do i have to do to get this moved to the next step? 8-[
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V5 - pg.1&4 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:10 am

I imagine you'll be moving soon ;) Industrial Helix is working a double shift in Graphics and the Drafting Room for nobodies and Ben, so I think he might be a little overworked. Give it time ;)

-Sully
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V5 - pg.1&4 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:17 am

Victor Sullivan wrote:I imagine you'll be moving soon ;) Industrial Helix is working a double shift in Graphics and the Drafting Room for nobodies and Ben, so I think he might be a little overworked. Give it time ;)

-Sully


ah that's great. i don't know what conditions have to be met in order to get moved and that's why i was asking :)
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V5 - pg.1&4 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:23 am

It's not entirely set-in-stone. It's basically once the cartos feel you have a well laid out map with the core concepts and gameplay elements mostly hammered out and they feel you have the means necessary to complete the project.

-Sully
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