SteamWorks

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Re: SteamWorks

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:49 pm

The updated files were sent to lackattack ;)

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Re: SteamWorks

Postby DiM on Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:12 pm

thanks
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby White Moose on Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:52 pm

What can I say, the map doesn't work well for 1v1s at least.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby DiM on Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:11 pm

White Moose wrote:What can I say, the map doesn't work well for 1v1s at least.



you played just a single 1v1 game that you won in 10 rounds.
none of the players received a bonus from the start and there was no map related advantage for going first.
the fact that the game lasted 10 rounds on a map where each player started with just 8 terits also tells me that there's no 2nd round elimination crap like on other maps.

so what exactly was the problem? because just by looking at your game i can say the map is actually great for 1v1 since it provides an environment where random influence is greatly reduced and strategy is the key to winning a game that actually lasts longer than a couple of turns.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby IcePack on Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:19 pm

My only comment, is some of the text at the bottom is damn near impossible to read on an iphone. I got an invite to this map and had to put off even playing a turn until i could get on a borrowed computer to read about the game play...

Other then that, it appears to be a fun layout. I just hope I remember what the legend says :/
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby DiM on Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:23 pm

IcePack wrote:My only comment, is some of the text at the bottom is damn near impossible to read on an iphone. I got an invite to this map and had to put off even playing a turn until i could get on a borrowed computer to read about the game play...

Other then that, it appears to be a fun layout. I just hope I remember what the legend says :/



to be honest i have no idea how the map is displayed on an iphone or on any other phones. if the map is automatically resized to fit the iphone screen then it's normal not to be able to read cause it would be really really small. but you should be able to zoom in (i think)
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby IcePack on Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:29 pm

You can zoom in, i guess my critique is more "compared with other maps, i have to zoom in much further" for it to be legible.
It's impossible to read the legend and see the map on the same screen. (note: this is not the only map like this...just the only one in beta, so I thought id comment).

Looks fun tho, I'll play it more (on the borrowed computer, til I know it better and can play on my phone)

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Re: SteamWorks

Postby DiM on Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:36 pm

well the basic logic is pretty simple so i guess a couple of games is all you need to master it :)

if you play only on your iphone then you might want to go to the suggestion subforum and support a certain suggestion about maps for mobile devices.

read more here: viewtopic.php?f=127&t=152827
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby ender516 on Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:41 pm

I was just examining the XML in detail (because of the way BOB displays continents with overrides, I was a little puzzled) and I see that holding One Steam and no engines at all does not incur the -1 bonus, as the legend implies that it should.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby DiM on Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:01 pm

ender516 wrote:I was just examining the XML in detail (because of the way BOB displays continents with overrides, I was a little puzzled) and I see that holding One Steam and no engines at all does not incur the -1 bonus, as the legend implies that it should.


"Having more steam than engines is fatal. For each excess steam you lose all engine bonuses and get -1 troop per turn"

that's what the legend says. the fact that you lose all engine bonuses means that you must first own such a bonus so you must also own at least one engine. the idea is that if you pump to much steam in your engine it blows and you get the negative bonus. now if you have just a steam and no engine there's nothing to blow is there? :P
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby ender516 on Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:18 pm

Well, I suppose you could argue it that way. I just figured 1 steam is more than 0 engines, so the -1 would apply. Now I see that I can hold All Steam and not be penalized, but taking one Engine at that point would be horrendous.

Perhaps a clearer wording would be: "If you have engines, having too much steam is bad! ..."
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby zimmah on Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:14 am

DiM wrote:
ender516 wrote:I was just examining the XML in detail (because of the way BOB displays continents with overrides, I was a little puzzled) and I see that holding One Steam and no engines at all does not incur the -1 bonus, as the legend implies that it should.


"Having more steam than engines is fatal. For each excess steam you lose all engine bonuses and get -1 troop per turn"

that's what the legend says. the fact that you lose all engine bonuses means that you must first own such a bonus so you must also own at least one engine. the idea is that if you pump to much steam in your engine it blows and you get the negative bonus. now if you have just a steam and no engine there's nothing to blow is there? :P


my reasoning exactly.

ender516 wrote:Well, I suppose you could argue it that way. I just figured 1 steam is more than 0 engines, so the -1 would apply. Now I see that I can hold All Steam and not be penalized, but taking one Engine at that point would be horrendous.

Perhaps a clearer wording would be: "If you have engines, having too much steam is bad! ..."


you can get all 7 steam and still get the normal amount of troops, but when you take 1 engine after that it'd going to make a huge blast and gain you -6 troops, that'll probably lose you the game right away.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby zimmah on Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:17 am

ender516 wrote:I was just examining the XML in detail (because of the way BOB displays continents with overrides, I was a little puzzled) and I see that holding One Steam and no engines at all does not incur the -1 bonus, as the legend implies that it should.


here's the list according to BOB with no overrides in effect.

Code: Select all
Northwest (1)
Northeast (2)     
Eastmidlands (2)     
Westmidlands (2)     
Southwest (3)     
Southeast (4) 
East (3)     
One Engine (0)
Two Engines (0) 
Three Engines (0) 
Four Engines (0)     
Five Engines (0)     
Six Engines (0)     
All Engines (0)
One Steam (0)
Two Steam (0)
Three Steam (0) 
Four Steam (0)     
Five Steam (0)
Six Steam (0) 
All Steam (0)     
One Powered Engine (1)     
Two Steam and One Engine (-1)     
Three Steam and One Engine (-2)   
Four Steam and One Engine (-3) 
Five Steam and One Engine (-4) 
Six Steam and One Engine (-5)   
All Steam and One Engine (-6) 
Two Powered Engines (2)
Three Steam and Two Engines (-1)     
Four Steam and Two Engines (-2)     
Five Steam and Two Engines (-3)     
Six Steam and Two Engines (-4)     
All Steam and Two Engines (-5) 
Three Powered Engines (3)     
Four Steam and Three Engines (-1) 
Five Steam and Three Engines (-2) 
Six Steam and Three Engines (-3)     
All Steam and Three Engines (-4)     
Four Powered Engines (4)
Five Steam and Four Engines (-1)     
Six Steam and Four Engines (-2)     
All Steam and Four Engines (-3)     
Five Powered Engines (5)
Six Steam and Five Engines (-1)     
All Steam and Five Engines (-2)     
Six Powered Engines (6)     
All Steam and Six Engines (-1)     
Seven Powered Engines (7)     
No Continent     Oxford(5)


note that having 4 engines and 3 steam will just state you have 3 powered engines as i dind't feel the need to add much more code just to state you have a 4th engine doing absolutely nothing, it would just clutter the log.

/ edit in fact it does show the extra engine but in a seperate continent that gives no bonus at all
Last edited by zimmah on Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby thenobodies80 on Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:43 am

The updated version is now live! :)

Btw it's possible to have the Isle of Wight anchor moved elsewhere to make clearer that the symbol is referred to the island and not to one of the other territories?
Maybe on the (down)left side of the island, where now you have "Isle"/"Isle of" written?

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Re: SteamWorks

Postby crazymilkshake5 on Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:19 pm

:glitch: if you have 2 steam and no engines your fine, but if you have 2 steam and 1 enine you lose an army.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby zimmah on Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:28 pm

crazymilkshake5 wrote::glitch: if you have 2 steam and no engines your fine, but if you have 2 steam and 1 enine you lose an army.


not a glitch, it's designed that way.

just to clarify (again) having any amount of steam is not bad on it's own. you can have all 7 steam and still get all your armies, but after you take an engine, t starts to hurt.

the reason is, if you have no engines at all, you can't blow them up either.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby ender516 on Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:43 pm

So I'm not the only one who read it that way. It does seem odd that you can have any Steam territories with no penalty until you acquire an Engine territory. Only then do you have to keep them balanced to avoid the negative bonus.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby zimmah on Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:49 pm

maybe it has to be made more clear in the map description after all.

i just assumed to be it that way, and assumed it made sense too. probably it's not so straightforward as i tought it to be.

any suggestions on how to get the wording so we don't need too much space on the map to explain how the mechanics work, but still be clear enough so that most people will understand it?

maybe if you have the space, add this line:

steam without engines does nothing


or something.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:11 pm

zimmah wrote:any suggestions on how to get the wording so we don't need too much space on the map to explain how the mechanics work, but still be clear enough so that most people will understand it?


Having steam is OK. Having more steam than engines is bad. For excess steam, you lose all engine bonuses and get -1 for each additional steam per turn.

I changed fatal to bad as fatal suggests it mean game over.

That is 5 extra words.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby DiM on Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:53 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Having steam is OK. Having more steam than engines is bad. For excess steam, you lose all engine bonuses and get -1 for each additional steam per turn.



to me it seems perfectly logical the way it is now.

Having more Steam than Engines is fatal. For each excess Steam you lose all Engine bonuses and get a -1 troop per turn.


the fact that you lose all engine bonuses clearly implies that you must own at least an engine for that rule to apply. i really don't understand how people miss this.

i'm willing to change it as i do not want any confusion.

but saying: "Having steam is OK." seems... i don't know... like i'm explaining for dumb people. it's like "there, there, dumb guy... don't worry, it's ok to have steam with no engines, just be careful when you get your first engine cause it might blow" :mrgreen:
i'll think of something that sounds like it's not meant for 1st graders and post it.
i'll also change the anchor isaah requested.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby DiM on Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:04 pm

moved the port from isle of wight and the terit name
added an explanation for when you have no engines but you have steam.

here are the new files:
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/9400/steamworksl.png
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http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/1061/steamworkss.png
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:29 pm

DiM wrote:to me it seems perfectly logical the way it is now.

to me also, but if it is not clear to others, then a problem as arisen.
You solution works though as well.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby ben79 on Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:54 pm

can't reinforce from E. sussex to west riding
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby DiM on Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:01 pm

ben79 wrote:can't reinforce from E. sussex to west riding


are you sure?

i can do it and it works fine. the xml also connect those 2 terits.

maybe you confused west riding with east riding or E sussex with W sussex.

if you really could not reinforce from E. sussex to west riding then it is a site bug not something related to the map.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby ender516 on Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:28 pm

DiM wrote:
Having more Steam than Engines is fatal. For each excess Steam you lose all Engine bonuses and get a -1 troop per turn.


the fact that you lose all engine bonuses clearly implies that you must own at least an engine for that rule to apply. i really don't understand how people miss this.


Well, I think the disconnect comes from deriving the precondition of having an Engine bonus from the consequent clause about losing them. It's kind of a circle.

Look at it another way. Suppose I were playing a board game where the rule was that if I land a particular space, I would lose all my money and go back to the start. If I were broke when I landed on that space, I wouldn't expect that just because I had no money to lose, I didn't have to go back to the start. The two penalties have the same cause, but are independent.

May I suggest again:

ender516 wrote:Perhaps a clearer wording would be: "If you have engines, having too much steam is bad! ..."
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