SteamWorks

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Re: SteamWorks

Postby zimmah on Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:28 pm

crazymilkshake5 wrote::glitch: if you have 2 steam and no engines your fine, but if you have 2 steam and 1 enine you lose an army.


not a glitch, it's designed that way.

just to clarify (again) having any amount of steam is not bad on it's own. you can have all 7 steam and still get all your armies, but after you take an engine, t starts to hurt.

the reason is, if you have no engines at all, you can't blow them up either.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby ender516 on Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:43 pm

So I'm not the only one who read it that way. It does seem odd that you can have any Steam territories with no penalty until you acquire an Engine territory. Only then do you have to keep them balanced to avoid the negative bonus.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby zimmah on Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:49 pm

maybe it has to be made more clear in the map description after all.

i just assumed to be it that way, and assumed it made sense too. probably it's not so straightforward as i tought it to be.

any suggestions on how to get the wording so we don't need too much space on the map to explain how the mechanics work, but still be clear enough so that most people will understand it?

maybe if you have the space, add this line:

steam without engines does nothing


or something.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:11 pm

zimmah wrote:any suggestions on how to get the wording so we don't need too much space on the map to explain how the mechanics work, but still be clear enough so that most people will understand it?


Having steam is OK. Having more steam than engines is bad. For excess steam, you lose all engine bonuses and get -1 for each additional steam per turn.

I changed fatal to bad as fatal suggests it mean game over.

That is 5 extra words.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby DiM on Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:53 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Having steam is OK. Having more steam than engines is bad. For excess steam, you lose all engine bonuses and get -1 for each additional steam per turn.



to me it seems perfectly logical the way it is now.

Having more Steam than Engines is fatal. For each excess Steam you lose all Engine bonuses and get a -1 troop per turn.


the fact that you lose all engine bonuses clearly implies that you must own at least an engine for that rule to apply. i really don't understand how people miss this.

i'm willing to change it as i do not want any confusion.

but saying: "Having steam is OK." seems... i don't know... like i'm explaining for dumb people. it's like "there, there, dumb guy... don't worry, it's ok to have steam with no engines, just be careful when you get your first engine cause it might blow" :mrgreen:
i'll think of something that sounds like it's not meant for 1st graders and post it.
i'll also change the anchor isaah requested.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby DiM on Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:04 pm

moved the port from isle of wight and the terit name
added an explanation for when you have no engines but you have steam.

here are the new files:
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/9400/steamworksl.png
Click image to enlarge.
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http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/1061/steamworkss.png
Click image to enlarge.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:29 pm

DiM wrote:to me it seems perfectly logical the way it is now.

to me also, but if it is not clear to others, then a problem as arisen.
You solution works though as well.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby ben79 on Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:54 pm

can't reinforce from E. sussex to west riding
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby DiM on Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:01 pm

ben79 wrote:can't reinforce from E. sussex to west riding


are you sure?

i can do it and it works fine. the xml also connect those 2 terits.

maybe you confused west riding with east riding or E sussex with W sussex.

if you really could not reinforce from E. sussex to west riding then it is a site bug not something related to the map.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby ender516 on Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:28 pm

DiM wrote:
Having more Steam than Engines is fatal. For each excess Steam you lose all Engine bonuses and get a -1 troop per turn.


the fact that you lose all engine bonuses clearly implies that you must own at least an engine for that rule to apply. i really don't understand how people miss this.


Well, I think the disconnect comes from deriving the precondition of having an Engine bonus from the consequent clause about losing them. It's kind of a circle.

Look at it another way. Suppose I were playing a board game where the rule was that if I land a particular space, I would lose all my money and go back to the start. If I were broke when I landed on that space, I wouldn't expect that just because I had no money to lose, I didn't have to go back to the start. The two penalties have the same cause, but are independent.

May I suggest again:

ender516 wrote:Perhaps a clearer wording would be: "If you have engines, having too much steam is bad! ..."
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby zimmah on Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:58 am

ender, did you notice he allready added some wordings on the new maps? it seems crystal clear now.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby thenobodies80 on Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:35 pm

[quote="DiM"]moved the port from isle of wight and the terit name
added an explanation for when you have no engines but you have steam.

here are the new files:
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/9400/steamworksl.png

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/1061/steamworkss.png

Sent to lackattack ;)
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby ender516 on Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:19 am

zimmah wrote:ender, did you notice he allready added some wordings on the new maps? it seems crystal clear now.

Sorry, missed that. I thought the original sentence would have been changed. I guess I did not read to the end. The new extra sentence is explicit enough, although a little backwards in my mind still. Since it's all about negatives, I don't think of them as bonuses. If using the extra sentence, I might have put it as "Steam with no engines is just wasted, but incurs no penalty." At this point, though, I don't think anyone will still be confused if they read it all, as I should have. 'Nuff said.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby Jinks on Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:47 pm

Great work on the map, I like it a lot :)

I'm very sorry if this has already been brought up and answered (I don't have time to read all the pages)...last turn I completed the Objective (Oxford and 3 Powered Engines) started this turn and didn't win.

I have 5 steam and 3 engines...does that make a difference?
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby DiM on Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:53 pm

Jinks wrote:Great work on the map, I like it a lot :)

I'm very sorry if this has already been brought up and answered (I don't have time to read all the pages)...last turn I completed the Objective (Oxford and 3 Powered Engines) started this turn and didn't win.

I have 5 steam and 3 engines...does that make a difference?


yes it does. with 5 steam and 3 engines you don't have 3 powered engines you actually have the negative bonus.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby zimmah on Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:33 pm

DiM wrote:
Jinks wrote:Great work on the map, I like it a lot :)

I'm very sorry if this has already been brought up and answered (I don't have time to read all the pages)...last turn I completed the Objective (Oxford and 3 Powered Engines) started this turn and didn't win.

I have 5 steam and 3 engines...does that make a difference?


yes it does. with 5 steam and 3 engines you don't have 3 powered engines you actually have the negative bonus.


i just checked his game, bob sais he is holding the winning condition. guess holding blown engines doesn't matter for the winning condition.

if you really want to change it i guess i could update the xml. not sure how much code i need to change for that tho.
Last edited by zimmah on Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby Jinks on Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:38 pm

DiM wrote:
Jinks wrote:Great work on the map, I like it a lot :)

I'm very sorry if this has already been brought up and answered (I don't have time to read all the pages)...last turn I completed the Objective (Oxford and 3 Powered Engines) started this turn and didn't win.

I have 5 steam and 3 engines...does that make a difference?


yes it does. with 5 steam and 3 engines you don't have 3 powered engines you actually have the negative bonus.


Ah, ok, its just with BOB, it says I have completed the Objective...had me a bit confused.

Thanks for the clarification :)
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby zimmah on Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:39 pm

Jinks wrote:
DiM wrote:
Jinks wrote:Great work on the map, I like it a lot :)

I'm very sorry if this has already been brought up and answered (I don't have time to read all the pages)...last turn I completed the Objective (Oxford and 3 Powered Engines) started this turn and didn't win.

I have 5 steam and 3 engines...does that make a difference?


yes it does. with 5 steam and 3 engines you don't have 3 powered engines you actually have the negative bonus.


Ah, ok, its just with BOB, it says I have completed the Objective...had me a bit confused.

Thanks for the clarification :)


oh, guess bob is just mistaken then.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby DiM on Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:34 pm

we've broken BOB :))
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby zimmah on Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:43 pm

'm watching his game now, he's trying to win the game by holding 4 powered engines and oxford. in theory that should end the game, but i'm not quite sure if it works as expected. so let's just see.

if t doesn't work i have a back-up xml lying around. (i allready have a version of the xml with extra lines of code i expected to be redundant, let's see if it's really as redundant as i expected)
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby DiM on Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:48 pm

normally at least 3 powered engines + oxford should win the game.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby zimmah on Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:10 pm

DiM wrote:normally at least 3 powered engines + oxford should win the game.


ye, having extra POWERED or unpowered engines should not break this. not sure if it actually does though. only one way to find out.

extra steam does break it, but that's how it should work.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby DiM on Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:21 pm

zimmah wrote:
DiM wrote:normally at least 3 powered engines + oxford should win the game.


ye, having extra POWERED or unpowered engines should not break this. not sure if it actually does though. only one way to find out.

extra steam does break it, but that's how it should work.


100% correct
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby ender516 on Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:01 pm

I would guess that since Four Engines overrides Three Engines, BOB is not seeing the objective as met. The question is whether the game engine will.
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Re: SteamWorks

Postby Gilligan on Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:46 pm

Is Isle of Wight -> West Sussex supposed to be a one-way?
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Speed Achievement (4) Teammate Achievement (3) Random Map Achievement (3) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Beta Map Achievement (2)
Battle Royale Achievement (3) Bot Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (30) General Achievement (32)

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