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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V6 - pg.1&5 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:09 pm

V7:

*tweaked continent names to make them less chunky
*incorporated middlesex into essex. this way the total number of terits is 39 and 15 start neutral so that leaves exactly 24 to be divided at start-up. 24 is much better than *25, that's why i eliminated 1 terit.
*moved around some steam icons to avoid having steam resource in a port/balloon terit
*added army numbers to test visibility of different colour (i think it's ok)
*added neutral armies so people can easily form an idea about the gameplay.
*changed east bonus from 5 to 4.

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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V7 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby Victor Sullivan on Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:42 pm

Sorry for the delay (internet problems...grumble grumble), Dr. DiM ;) But here are my current thoughts (mostly minor things, so yay, yes?):
DiM wrote:
Industrial Helix wrote:And why did you choose areas of England for the territory names? It seems awkward.


i was sure i explained this. steampunk is usually set in a fantasy steam-powered victorian era Britain. naturally i chose england and the story is that evil Dr. DiM split apart England with the use of a terrible machine found in his lab at Oxford. now all he needs is to gather enough power from at least 3 engines to complete his malefic plan of destroying England.

You should squeeze in a little blurb on your map somewhere, or at least the large. Most people will have no idea what the heck is going on. It's always nice to have a little story, so you can really feel like you're playing the part while playing the game :)

Second, I'm not digging the font. Isn't that "Algerian", a font that comes with Microsoft Word on the PC version? :? I think you should go back to the font you had before, I thought it looked quite nice, and appropriate, too.

Third, this is somewhat of a pet peeve of mine, but can you name the continents something other than cardinal directions? Weren't there specific names for these portions of Great Britain back in the day (England, Wales, Scotland)? "Southwest" and "Southeast" don't say much about the region, nor does it point to the fact that they're pieces of Britain!

Fourth, still in love with this map (don't worry, I'll ask you for permission before I propose).

-Sully
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V7 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:06 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:Sorry for the delay (internet problems...grumble grumble), Dr. DiM ;) But here are my current thoughts (mostly minor things, so yay, yes?):
DiM wrote:
Industrial Helix wrote:And why did you choose areas of England for the territory names? It seems awkward.


i was sure i explained this. steampunk is usually set in a fantasy steam-powered victorian era Britain. naturally i chose england and the story is that evil Dr. DiM split apart England with the use of a terrible machine found in his lab at Oxford. now all he needs is to gather enough power from at least 3 engines to complete his malefic plan of destroying England.

You should squeeze in a little blurb on your map somewhere, or at least the large. Most people will have no idea what the heck is going on. It's always nice to have a little story, so you can really feel like you're playing the part while playing the game :)


great idea. something like Age of Merchants has.
i'm open to suggestions on this. be it a rhyme or a simple phrase if it describes the map in a steampunk-ish way it's perfect.

Victor Sullivan wrote:Second, I'm not digging the font. Isn't that "Algerian", a font that comes with Microsoft Word on the PC version? :? I think you should go back to the font you had before, I thought it looked quite nice, and appropriate, too.


yep it's algerian. i'll try the old one and see how it looks.

Victor Sullivan wrote:Third, this is somewhat of a pet peeve of mine, but can you name the continents something other than cardinal directions? Weren't there specific names for these portions of Great Britain back in the day (England, Wales, Scotland)? "Southwest" and "Southeast" don't say much about the region, nor does it point to the fact that they're pieces of Britain!


well, i would certainly need an englishman to help me here. gimil, maybe...

Victor Sullivan wrote:Fourth, still in love with this map (don't worry, I'll ask you for permission before I propose).

-Sully


glad you still like it and thanks for the great input so far.

image with previous font for continent names:

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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V7 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby natty dread on Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:17 pm

Well, that font doesn't work either, I think... it sort of looks like it isn't designed to be used all caps, if you know what I mean.

Perhaps a visit to dafont is in order...
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V7 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:17 am

Victor Sullivan wrote:You should squeeze in a little blurb on your map somewhere, or at least the large. Most people will have no idea what the heck is going on. It's always nice to have a little story, so you can really feel like you're playing the part while playing the game :)


i got inspired after listening to a song and got this:

Test tubes and Tesla coils,
clockwork brain 'n' glowing oils,
copper and brass looking so grim,
this is the story of Dr.DiM.
Hidden and plotting behind locked doors,
a man in a lab coat fighting cruel wars.
He harnessed hot steam to power his dream
and splitting old England is his masterfull scheme.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V7 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:49 am

DiM, thanks for moving the continent names and toning down the lines. :)
I have some other graphic things you might like to consider...so i hope you'll forgive if they're presented here. If you like i can wait until you reach graphics stage and have them done there.

I am not sure that all the fonts "click" together. I could be wrong but are they from a similar period.
What i am trying to say is...the overall theme looks like early 19th century, and to my way of thinking the legend instructions seem to fit that period...but do you feel the tert and region names font fit in there. For me it seems a bit of a mismatch.

there is a very strong crease that runs through southeasst. it is very distracting 'coz it seems there is a lot of eye clutter going on near the Isle of Wight but it runs down from West sussex into the legend.

have you any plans to "enhance" the background of the legend? While the fancy work around the legend is somewhat fine, it seems out of place because there is not as much detail in it as opposed to the iron globe and the cogs on the left.

the colours of the continents seem also to get lost on that background, particularly the white, yellow and orange, although the brown doesn't appear to fare so well either. i think something more solid (but not too metallic) might help underneath the legend although i don't know what to suggest...perhaps try a few things since you're in early stages still.

the cuts at the edge of the paper under the iron globe look a little out of place also almost as though they are seperate from the paper...perhaps more tattered look might help.

and lastly, the brown burn in the middle near Isle of Dr Dim...it's very distracting, it catched my eye and draws me to it every time i look at the map. Do you think it needs to be so strong? or Large?

I hope these suggestions help improve things. ;)
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V7 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby Gypsys Kiss on Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:47 am

Victor Sullivan wrote:Third, this is somewhat of a pet peeve of mine, but can you name the continents something other than cardinal directions? Weren't there specific names for these portions of Great Britain back in the day (England, Wales, Scotland)? "Southwest" and "Southeast" don't say much about the region, nor does it point to the fact that they're pieces of Britain!

-Sully


The quick and succinct answer is no, there are no applicable names you could use for this time frame.

This map is showing the constituent parts of England, not Great Britain or the UK. England, along with Scotland and Wales, makes up Great Britain. Add in Northern Ireland and you get the United Kingdom, and to get the British Isles the Republic of Ireland needs to be added to the list. One of my pet peeves is how people who live here keep getting this wrong.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

The only time England had separate 'regional' names is going back 1200 years and more and they are not geographically accurate for this map.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V7 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:50 am

cairnswk wrote:DiM, thanks for moving the continent names and toning down the lines. :)
I have some other graphic things you might like to consider...so i hope you'll forgive if they're presented here. If you like i can wait until you reach graphics stage and have them done there.


no worries mate. remember i used to make maps back when there were no foundry subforums about gameplay/graphics/etc. feedback used to come from all directions about anything and everything. so any feedback on any matter is more than welcome

cairnswk wrote:I am not sure that all the fonts "click" together. I could be wrong but are they from a similar period.
What i am trying to say is...the overall theme looks like early 19th century, and to my way of thinking the legend instructions seem to fit that period...but do you feel the tert and region names font fit in there. For me it seems a bit of a mismatch.


the font used for the terit names and the continent names is actually very nice and has little cogs in it which fit the theme perfectly. but the problem is that the size is too small for such details and maybe that's why it feels like it doesn't belong. i'll search for a replacement and post an update later.

cairnswk wrote:there is a very strong crease that runs through southeasst. it is very distracting 'coz it seems there is a lot of eye clutter going on near the Isle of Wight but it runs down from West sussex into the legend.


i'll see what i can do about it.

cairnswk wrote:have you any plans to "enhance" the background of the legend? While the fancy work around the legend is somewhat fine, it seems out of place because there is not as much detail in it as opposed to the iron globe and the cogs on the left.


the legend is still a work in progress. i can't do much enhancement until i decide exactly what i need to write there. after i do that i'll see what space i have left and fill the rest (if any) with some graphics.

cairnswk wrote:the colours of the continents seem also to get lost on that background, particularly the white, yellow and orange, although the brown doesn't appear to fare so well either. i think something more solid (but not too metallic) might help underneath the legend although i don't know what to suggest...perhaps try a few things since you're in early stages still.


yep i'm aware of this problem and it's on my to do list as soon as i have decided on the final text that goes in the legend. once that's in place i can estimate what space i have left and work on the visibility of the legend continents.

cairnswk wrote:the cuts at the edge of the paper under the iron globe look a little out of place also almost as though they are seperate from the paper...perhaps more tattered look might help.


will do.

cairnswk wrote:and lastly, the brown burn in the middle near Isle of Dr Dim...it's very distracting, it catched my eye and draws me to it every time i look at the map. Do you think it needs to be so strong? or Large?


i think the size is ok but i will tone it down and hopefully it will be less eye-catching.

cairnswk wrote:I hope these suggestions help improve things. ;)


i hope so too :)
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V7 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:35 am

here you go cairns:

V8:

*toned down the brown burn in the middle
*fixed the cuts in the lower right of the map
*fixed the strong crease near the Isle of Wight
*added various fonts (each continent has a different font, so a total of 8, please chose your favourite)


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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V8 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby isaiah40 on Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:46 am

The font on Eastmidlands looks the best as IMO it fits the theme and style.

As for the gameplay, I don't see any problems with it.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V8 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:01 am

I'd prefer something with more legibility---or at least, a quick-glance legibility, and something like East Midlands would do nicely.


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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V7 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:51 am

DiM wrote:here you go cairns:
V8:
*toned down the brown burn in the middle
*fixed the cuts in the lower right of the map
*fixed the strong crease near the Isle of Wight
*added various fonts (each continent has a different font, so a total of 8, please chose your favourite)
....

DiM, that's much better for the crease, cuts abd brown burn. Well done. :)
As for the font, i see andy has a preference, mine would be Southwest.
the continent colours i'll leave alone for now and see what develops. ;)
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V8 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby OliverFA on Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:17 am

Hello!

Don't know if that has been asked before. If this is a repeated question excuse me. But I wonder... Having Oxford / Isle of Dr.Dim bombard each and every other region, isn't too much? Stack a bunch of armies, go directly to Oxford and then bombard any strong opposition. If it's FoW, bombard ports and balloons so the other players can't see what you are doing. Or, if you can't bombard all the ports/balloons, bombard the ones held by the most dangerous players. All this make the Oxford territory super-powerful. Even more in FoW.

I like the too-much-steam concept. I would even go a bit beyond what it is now. 1 exceeding seam -1, 2 exceeding steams -3, 3 exceeding steams -6 and so on.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V8 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:40 am

OliverFA wrote:Hello!

Don't know if that has been asked before. If this is a repeated question excuse me. But I wonder... Having Oxford / Isle of Dr.Dim bombard each and every other region, isn't too much? Stack a bunch of armies, go directly to Oxford and then bombard any strong opposition. If it's FoW, bombard ports and balloons so the other players can't see what you are doing. Or, if you can't bombard all the ports/balloons, bombard the ones held by the most dangerous players. All this make the Oxford territory super-powerful. Even more in FoW.


well considering that Oxford is an essential part of the winning objective it is already very important. i like the fact that it is able to bombard because it emphasizes the importance of that terit and hopefully proves a big enough incetive for people to go for it. especially in fog games where some just like to sit around waiting.

OliverFA wrote:I like the too-much-steam concept. I would even go a bit beyond what it is now. 1 exceeding seam -1, 2 exceeding steams -3, 3 exceeding steams -6 and so on.


a bit of math:
X has northeast, eastmidlands and east. this gives him 3+3+4 from continent bonuses + another 3 for having 3 powered engines. that's a total of 12.
now let's say Y bombards 2 engines. this means he loses the continent bonus for the 2 continents where the engines were bombarded and he also gets a -2 for having too many engines. that leaves his with 4 for keeping a continent and -2 from the extra steam for a total of just 2.

so having the penalties you suggest would be a too severe punishment in my opinion. plus at some point (3 or more exceeding steams) it would be so severe the player would end up with an overall negative bonus. from what i understood any player deploys a minumum of 1 troop regardless of his bonus. so with your steeper penalties people would just end up with 1 troop weather they have 2 extra steams or 6 extra steams.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V8 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby OliverFA on Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:48 am

DiM wrote:
OliverFA wrote:Hello!

Don't know if that has been asked before. If this is a repeated question excuse me. But I wonder... Having Oxford / Isle of Dr.Dim bombard each and every other region, isn't too much? Stack a bunch of armies, go directly to Oxford and then bombard any strong opposition. If it's FoW, bombard ports and balloons so the other players can't see what you are doing. Or, if you can't bombard all the ports/balloons, bombard the ones held by the most dangerous players. All this make the Oxford territory super-powerful. Even more in FoW.


well considering that Oxford is an essential part of the winning objective it is already very important. i like the fact that it is able to bombard because it emphasizes the importance of that terit and hopefully proves a big enough incetive for people to go for it. especially in fog games where some just like to sit around waiting.

Yes. But my point is that it is not only an incentive to go for the territory, but also a feature that makes a lot easier to keep it. It's the equation objective+easier to keep what worries me.

DiM wrote:
OliverFA wrote:I like the too-much-steam concept. I would even go a bit beyond what it is now. 1 exceeding seam -1, 2 exceeding steams -3, 3 exceeding steams -6 and so on.


a bit of math:
X has northeast, eastmidlands and east. this gives him 3+3+4 from continent bonuses + another 3 for having 3 powered engines. that's a total of 12.
now let's say Y bombards 2 engines. this means he loses the continent bonus for the 2 continents where the engines were bombarded and he also gets a -2 for having too many engines. that leaves his with 4 for keeping a continent and -2 from the extra steam for a total of just 2.

so having the penalties you suggest would be a too severe punishment in my opinion. plus at some point (3 or more exceeding steams) it would be so severe the player would end up with an overall negative bonus. from what i understood any player deploys a minumum of 1 troop regardless of his bonus. so with your steeper penalties people would just end up with 1 troop weather they have 2 extra steams or 6 extra steams.

Yes. It would be too much. You are right ;)
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V8 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:30 pm

V9 is here:

*changed fonts all over the map
*moved around some legend stuff to make room for the little poem that explains the theme and setting.
*made the continents in the legend much more visible.

what i want now is more feedback on the issue raised by OliverFA. he thinks Oxford bombarding anything makes it too powerful. i like it like that to "force people" to go for it and not just sit around doing nothing. thoughts?


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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V8 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby isaiah40 on Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:43 pm

Okay, I can understand DiM's viewpoint on why he has Oxford the way it is. At the same time I can understand OliverFA's concerns about it being WAY too powerful. I see it as if you have a good number of men on the steam and engines and you take Oxford, you probably won't need to bombard any of your opponents (sunny setting). Now could we have a compromise? Have Oxford only bombard the balloons and ports, or have them bombard the engines, balloons, and ports? In this way Oxford is still strong but not overpowering. Just my couple of pennies for my thoughts.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V8 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby Victor Sullivan on Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:18 pm

I can understand Oliver's concerns, and isaiah's solution seems good. My thinking is that the one with Oxford (assuming it's guarded enough) would have had to have forfeited bonuses elsewhere, since he has so many troops devoted to bombardment. Plus, the bombarding helps balance out the mere two borders each island has.

At any rate, I think isaiah's solution is a decent one. Just lower Southeast to 4 to adjust for the change.

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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V8 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:26 pm

isaiah40 wrote:Okay, I can understand DiM's viewpoint on why he has Oxford the way it is. At the same time I can understand OliverFA's concerns about it being WAY too powerful. I see it as if you have a good number of men on the steam and engines and you take Oxford, you probably won't need to bombard any of your opponents (sunny setting). Now could we have a compromise? Have Oxford only bombard the balloons and ports, or have them bombard the engines, balloons, and ports? In this way Oxford is still strong but not overpowering. Just my couple of pennies for my thoughts.



let's think about this step by step. what exactly makes Oxford so powerful?

1. it can bombard engines thus breaking bonuses and even more creating negative bonuses.
2. it can bombard steam terits thus breaking powered engine bonuses
3. it can bombard ports and balloons thus disrupting movement across the map
4. and all of the above also break the continent bonuses.

to be honest i'd go either for Oxford bombarding only the engines.this way you can still wreak havoc and destroy the bonuses for the opposition but still leave him with a fighting chance if he has troops in other terits. and it's also plausible. i mean the engines are somehow connected to the lab in Oxford in order to power up the machine for Dr.DiM. but this connection works both ways and using said machine you can also destroy the engines.

thoughts?
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby isaiah40 on Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:35 pm

Just the engines would work as well. In this way as you said it would remove the Steam+Engine bonus plus the continent bonus as well. Just enough to disable an opponent, and yet not enough to almost take him/her out and have him/her decide to do a suicide run.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:41 pm

isaiah40 wrote:Just the engines would work as well. In this way as you said it would remove the Steam+Engine bonus plus the continent bonus as well. Just enough to disable an opponent, and yet not enough to almost take him/her out and have him/her decide to do a suicide run.


precisely my thoughts. let's say i have an entire continent. if you bombard my engine the next turn i'll have no bonus (no continent, no powered engine) but i'll still have troops in the other terits (3-5 terits) and i'd still be able to take back my engine and try to recover.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby Victor Sullivan on Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:43 pm

Sounds decent enough to me.

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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:55 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:Sounds decent enough to me.

-Sully



music to my ears :mrgreen:
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby OliverFA on Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:17 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:Sounds decent enough to me.

-Sully


I also like it :)

And DiM. I made the suggestion with the intention to improve the map, not to spoil your fun as a mapmaker. ;)
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:24 pm

OliverFA wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:Sounds decent enough to me.

-Sully


I also like it :)

And DiM. I made the suggestion with the intention to improve the map, not to spoil your fun as a mapmaker. ;)



then that settles it. unless anybody has an objection in the next update i'll change the legend to include the new info about bombardments.
Oliver, any feedback is good as long as it leads to positive changes. you pointed out a potential flaw, others joined in, we discussed it and we all came up with a potential solution. that's what map making is all about and that's were the fun is. talking, debating, bouncing ideas around and creating a better map.


now that the bombardment is settled, i feel i should lower the continent bonuses. as usual thoughts and ideas are much appreciated.
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