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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V8 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:30 pm

V9 is here:

*changed fonts all over the map
*moved around some legend stuff to make room for the little poem that explains the theme and setting.
*made the continents in the legend much more visible.

what i want now is more feedback on the issue raised by OliverFA. he thinks Oxford bombarding anything makes it too powerful. i like it like that to "force people" to go for it and not just sit around doing nothing. thoughts?


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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V8 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby isaiah40 on Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:43 pm

Okay, I can understand DiM's viewpoint on why he has Oxford the way it is. At the same time I can understand OliverFA's concerns about it being WAY too powerful. I see it as if you have a good number of men on the steam and engines and you take Oxford, you probably won't need to bombard any of your opponents (sunny setting). Now could we have a compromise? Have Oxford only bombard the balloons and ports, or have them bombard the engines, balloons, and ports? In this way Oxford is still strong but not overpowering. Just my couple of pennies for my thoughts.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V8 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby Victor Sullivan on Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:18 pm

I can understand Oliver's concerns, and isaiah's solution seems good. My thinking is that the one with Oxford (assuming it's guarded enough) would have had to have forfeited bonuses elsewhere, since he has so many troops devoted to bombardment. Plus, the bombarding helps balance out the mere two borders each island has.

At any rate, I think isaiah's solution is a decent one. Just lower Southeast to 4 to adjust for the change.

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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V8 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:26 pm

isaiah40 wrote:Okay, I can understand DiM's viewpoint on why he has Oxford the way it is. At the same time I can understand OliverFA's concerns about it being WAY too powerful. I see it as if you have a good number of men on the steam and engines and you take Oxford, you probably won't need to bombard any of your opponents (sunny setting). Now could we have a compromise? Have Oxford only bombard the balloons and ports, or have them bombard the engines, balloons, and ports? In this way Oxford is still strong but not overpowering. Just my couple of pennies for my thoughts.



let's think about this step by step. what exactly makes Oxford so powerful?

1. it can bombard engines thus breaking bonuses and even more creating negative bonuses.
2. it can bombard steam terits thus breaking powered engine bonuses
3. it can bombard ports and balloons thus disrupting movement across the map
4. and all of the above also break the continent bonuses.

to be honest i'd go either for Oxford bombarding only the engines.this way you can still wreak havoc and destroy the bonuses for the opposition but still leave him with a fighting chance if he has troops in other terits. and it's also plausible. i mean the engines are somehow connected to the lab in Oxford in order to power up the machine for Dr.DiM. but this connection works both ways and using said machine you can also destroy the engines.

thoughts?
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby isaiah40 on Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:35 pm

Just the engines would work as well. In this way as you said it would remove the Steam+Engine bonus plus the continent bonus as well. Just enough to disable an opponent, and yet not enough to almost take him/her out and have him/her decide to do a suicide run.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:41 pm

isaiah40 wrote:Just the engines would work as well. In this way as you said it would remove the Steam+Engine bonus plus the continent bonus as well. Just enough to disable an opponent, and yet not enough to almost take him/her out and have him/her decide to do a suicide run.


precisely my thoughts. let's say i have an entire continent. if you bombard my engine the next turn i'll have no bonus (no continent, no powered engine) but i'll still have troops in the other terits (3-5 terits) and i'd still be able to take back my engine and try to recover.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby Victor Sullivan on Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:43 pm

Sounds decent enough to me.

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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:55 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:Sounds decent enough to me.

-Sully



music to my ears :mrgreen:
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby OliverFA on Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:17 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:Sounds decent enough to me.

-Sully


I also like it :)

And DiM. I made the suggestion with the intention to improve the map, not to spoil your fun as a mapmaker. ;)
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:24 pm

OliverFA wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:Sounds decent enough to me.

-Sully


I also like it :)

And DiM. I made the suggestion with the intention to improve the map, not to spoil your fun as a mapmaker. ;)



then that settles it. unless anybody has an objection in the next update i'll change the legend to include the new info about bombardments.
Oliver, any feedback is good as long as it leads to positive changes. you pointed out a potential flaw, others joined in, we discussed it and we all came up with a potential solution. that's what map making is all about and that's were the fun is. talking, debating, bouncing ideas around and creating a better map.


now that the bombardment is settled, i feel i should lower the continent bonuses. as usual thoughts and ideas are much appreciated.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby ender516 on Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:36 pm

I preferred the font that you had on the Southeast continent on the sampler map, because it seemed to match the continent labels better. However, the one you've chosen is fine, considering that you changed the continent labels as well. ( I would have commented sooner, but my internet connection is awful lately, and you only had the sampler up about 36 hours before you made your decision.)
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:17 pm

ender516 wrote:I preferred the font that you had on the Southeast continent on the sampler map, because it seemed to match the continent labels better. However, the one you've chosen is fine, considering that you changed the continent labels as well. ( I would have commented sooner, but my internet connection is awful lately, and you only had the sampler up about 36 hours before you made your decision.)



there's plenty of time for changing the font again when the map goes to graphics sub-forum if anybody has objections towards the current font and if that happens i'll keep in mind your preference.

in the meantime, bellow is the latest map with the updated legend that stipulates Oxford bombards just the engines.

any more gameplay feedback? is the map balanced? are the bonuses ok? is the objective a realistic target?

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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:20 pm

The gameplay looks pretty clear. The only thing that kind of tripped me up for a bit was 'Too much steam damages your engines. For each steam beyond your engine capacity you lose 1 army.' I wasn't immediately sure what engine capacity was, since I didn't see it referenced anywhere else on the map. Does it reference 'engine + steam = power engined' ? Perhaps '1 Engine + 1 Steam = Full Engine Capacity' or something like that to make it more clear. (though I like the phrase 'powered engine').

====

Other minor things:

Army could be changed to 'troop' since that is what we use on CC for official lingo, and army doesn't specifically seemed to be tied to the theme of the map.

The steam icon should be more in line with the other icons, perhaps stylized like Image

'eachother'---as a single world---I'm not sure that exists as a real word.

====

But I like the route this map is going.


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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:39 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:The gameplay looks pretty clear. The only thing that kind of tripped me up for a bit was 'Too much steam damages your engines. For each steam beyond your engine capacity you lose 1 army.' I wasn't immediately sure what engine capacity was, since I didn't see it referenced anywhere else on the map. Does it reference 'engine + steam = power engined' ? Perhaps '1 Engine + 1 Steam = Full Engine Capacity' or something like that to make it more clear. (though I like the phrase 'powered engine').


each powered engine produces one troop
unpowered engines produce no troops
but too much power blows the engine and you lose 1 troops.

basically like this:
1 engine + 1 steam = 1 troop
2 engines + 2 steam = 2 troops
6 engines + 2 steam = 2 troops
3 engines + 3 steam = 3 troops
2 engines + 3 steam = -1 troop
1 engine + 5 steam = -4 troops

i have phrased this as best as i could but my english skills are limited. so, if you (or others) have a better phrase feel free to share. keep in mind though that it has to be 1-2 lines long to fit the legend.

AndyDufresne wrote:Other minor things:

Army could be changed to 'troop' since that is what we use on CC for official lingo, and army doesn't specifically seemed to be tied to the theme of the map.


Done.

AndyDufresne wrote:The steam icon should be more in line with the other icons, perhaps stylized like Image


actually i like it like it is now because it fits nicely with the steam in the right side of the map. however if others feel the same way i guess i could change it.

AndyDufresne wrote:'eachother'---as a single world---I'm not sure that exists as a real word.


Changed

AndyDufresne wrote:But I like the route this map is going.

--Andy


i'm glad you do.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V5 - pg.1&4 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby zimmah on Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:14 am

DiM wrote:just added continent names. nothing else. but to be honest i don't really like having the continent names cluttering the map.
people can clearly see the continent bonuses from the minimap and in the log it can appear like this:
"X receives 2troops for holding the Nortwest (Blue continent)"

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image


what if you make a compass in the legend where the continent bonusses are now (since you named them after their compass direction anyway) and put either the color or the shape of the continent in each compass direction, with off course also NW, SE, etc. on it. That would not clutter the map with ugly names as much and still name the territories.

is that even a viable option? might try it.

to be honest tho, i think the names are fine like they are now. (i mean on the latest verion not on the one i quoted).

also, could you clarify how the bonus system works at this point? it understand the continents and the 1 for every steam+engine but i'm not sure if i understand the too much steam damages you engine part.

Let's say i have 2 steam and 1 engine, since i have the bonus for +1 steam and +1 engine, i'd expect +1 bonnus, but since i have more steam then engines i'd get a negative bonus, is this bonus going to make me get +0 or -1?

P.S. try doing the poem in darkblue (or maybe dark violet), you know like the dark blue inks. i'm not sure if it's an improvement or not, but it's probably worth a shot.
P.P.S. i'd make the name Oxford slighty bigger then the text 'Isle of Dr. Dim'

(yes. i'm nitpicking but since you're also a perfectionist i guess you don't mind.)
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V8 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby zimmah on Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:35 am

isaiah40 wrote:Okay, I can understand DiM's viewpoint on why he has Oxford the way it is. At the same time I can understand OliverFA's concerns about it being WAY too powerful. I see it as if you have a good number of men on the steam and engines and you take Oxford, you probably won't need to bombard any of your opponents (sunny setting). Now could we have a compromise? Have Oxford only bombard the balloons and ports, or have them bombard the engines, balloons, and ports? In this way Oxford is still strong but not overpowering. Just my couple of pennies for my thoughts.


what if you make oxford bombard engines and balloons, while balloons can attack oxford, docks and other balloons, and docks can just attack oxford and each other?

after all, balloons can fly. (or maybe make balloons only able to bombard docks and not assault them)

if oxford can bombard balloons will somewhat balance the fact that balloons can bombard docks then.

however i'm not sure how it will make sense that oxford can bombard them, but maybe Dr. Dim has some kind of weird anti-flyingmachine prototypes at his lab, who knows.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby zimmah on Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:54 am

DiM wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:The steam icon should be more in line with the other icons, perhaps stylized like Image


actually i like it like it is now because it fits nicely with the steam in the right side of the map. however if others feel the same way i guess i could change it.




i agree with andy on this one, look at the balloon, look at the dock, look at the engine. now look at the steam. it looks completely different. i think it would look better if it's a black icon like the other 3 symbols.

no offense to your judgement or anything, i just think it looks a bit out of place.

something like this: (in black)
Click image to enlarge.
image

or this
Click image to enlarge.
image
would seem appropiate.

just try to play around with it a little, and see if you can come up with something that matches more with the other symbols.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby MrBenn on Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:19 am

As an Englander, I have no idea why the "age of steam" or "steamworks" correlates to a divided map of England?
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V5 - pg.1&4 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:19 am

zimmah wrote:to be honest tho, i think the names are fine like they are now. (i mean on the latest verion not on the one i quoted).


on the version you quoted the names were on top of continents that's why i didn't like them but on the latest version i think they fit perfectly.

zimmah wrote:also, could you clarify how the bonus system works at this point? it understand the continents and the 1 for every steam+engine but i'm not sure if i understand the too much steam damages you engine part.

Let's say i have 2 steam and 1 engine, since i have the bonus for +1 steam and +1 engine, i'd expect +1 bonnus, but since i have more steam then engines i'd get a negative bonus, is this bonus going to make me get +0 or -1?


here are all the combinations:

6S + 6E = +6
5S + 6E = +5
4S + 6E = +4
3S + 6E = +3
2S + 6E = +2
1S + 6E = +1

6S + 5E = -1
5S + 5E = +5
4S + 5E = +4
3S + 5E = +3
2S + 5E = +2
1S + 5E = +1

6S + 4E = -2
5S + 4E = -1
4S + 4E = +4
3S + 4E = +3
2S + 4E = +2
1S + 4E = +1

6S + 3E = -3
5S + 3E = -2
4S + 3E = -1
3S + 3E = +3
2S + 3E = +2
1S + 3E = +1

6S + 2E = -4
5S + 2E = -3
4S + 2E = -2
3S + 2E = -1
2S + 2E = +2
1S + 2E = +1

6S + 1E = -5
5S + 1E = -4
4S + 1E = -3
3S + 1E = -2
2S + 1E = -1
1S + 1E = +1

zimmah wrote:P.S. try doing the poem in darkblue (or maybe dark violet), you know like the dark blue inks. i'm not sure if it's an improvement or not, but it's probably worth a shot.


will give it a shot to see how it looks

zimmah wrote:P.P.S. i'd make the name Oxford slighty bigger then the text 'Isle of Dr. Dim'


will do

zimmah wrote:(yes. i'm nitpicking but since you're also a perfectionist i guess you don't mind.)


of course i don't mind.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V8 - pg.1&6 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:24 am

zimmah wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:Okay, I can understand DiM's viewpoint on why he has Oxford the way it is. At the same time I can understand OliverFA's concerns about it being WAY too powerful. I see it as if you have a good number of men on the steam and engines and you take Oxford, you probably won't need to bombard any of your opponents (sunny setting). Now could we have a compromise? Have Oxford only bombard the balloons and ports, or have them bombard the engines, balloons, and ports? In this way Oxford is still strong but not overpowering. Just my couple of pennies for my thoughts.


what if you make oxford bombard engines and balloons, while balloons can attack oxford, docks and other balloons, and docks can just attack oxford and each other?

after all, balloons can fly. (or maybe make balloons only able to bombard docks and not assault them)

if oxford can bombard balloons will somewhat balance the fact that balloons can bombard docks then.

however i'm not sure how it will make sense that oxford can bombard them, but maybe Dr. Dim has some kind of weird anti-flyingmachine prototypes at his lab, who knows.


to be honest it would overcomplicate the map if balloons could attack other balloons and also docks but docks could not attack back.
i honestly like the current version with balloons attacking other balloons and oxford and with ports attacking other ports and oxford. it's very clear for anybody to comprehend, while still giving plenty of movement options around the map.
and oxford bombarding just the engines is also logical as well as fitting the gameplay since it can cripple an enemy's bonus but not destroy him completely an leave him with no chance to come back.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:25 am

zimmah wrote:
DiM wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:The steam icon should be more in line with the other icons, perhaps stylized like Image


actually i like it like it is now because it fits nicely with the steam in the right side of the map. however if others feel the same way i guess i could change it.




i agree with andy on this one, look at the balloon, look at the dock, look at the engine. now look at the steam. it looks completely different. i think it would look better if it's a black icon like the other 3 symbols.

no offense to your judgement or anything, i just think it looks a bit out of place.

something like this: (in black)
Click image to enlarge.
image

or this
Click image to enlarge.
image
would seem appropiate.

just try to play around with it a little, and see if you can come up with something that matches more with the other symbols.


will try and make an icon. not sure if i'll use something that stylized though. i mean all the other icons appear to be drawn on the map but still preserve a lot of detail. i'll try doing the same with the steam.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby DiM on Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:28 am

MrBenn wrote:As an Englander, I have no idea why the "age of steam" or "steamworks" correlates to a divided map of England?


steampunk is often associated with a 19th century victorian england with industrialization overusing steam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steampunk
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby MrBenn on Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:16 pm

DiM wrote:
MrBenn wrote:As an Englander, I have no idea why the "age of steam" or "steamworks" correlates to a divided map of England?


steampunk is often associated with a 19th century victorian england with industrialization overusing steam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steampunk

Yeah yeah... but how does that connect to chopping England into little bits (using modern 21st century boundaries)? Where are the crazy steam inventions?

To be honest I'd much rather you revived the old Age of Dungeons / Quest map you started a couple of years ago...
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby zimmah on Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:06 pm

MrBenn wrote:
DiM wrote:
MrBenn wrote:As an Englander, I have no idea why the "age of steam" or "steamworks" correlates to a divided map of England?


steampunk is often associated with a 19th century victorian england with industrialization overusing steam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steampunk

Yeah yeah... but how does that connect to chopping England into little bits (using modern 21st century boundaries)? Where are the crazy steam inventions?

To be honest I'd much rather you revived the old Age of Dungeons / Quest map you started a couple of years ago...


You're probablt the only one who doesn't lke the idea of this map, it's ok tho, not everyone has the same taste. i like it, like most of dim's maps, and most of the maps that were created 2~4 years ago.
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Re: [IDEA] SteamWorks - V9 - pg.1&7 - The Island of Dr.DiM

Postby natty dread on Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:23 pm

MrBenn wrote:Where are the crazy steam inventions?


Well arguably, a device that chops up england into pieces using steam engines is a crazy steam invention, by definition...
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