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All Your Base Are Belong To Us

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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V4 p1&3

Postby DiM on Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:07 pm

Coleman wrote:
DiM wrote:the world display has a new texture


I really really don't like the new texture. It made everything a lot harder to read for me. You may need to brighten the text to compensate or just go back to the v1 texture/brightness which I liked much more.



seeing as you're not the only one complaining about the new texture i'll just revert to the old one.
i've also smoothed out some text and i'm currently working on implementing sully's box suggestion.

in the meantime i'd like some input on the neutrals.
i was thinking of making the first row of every tech as 2 and the second row as 3. on all techs, including the objective. and making the bonuses at +2 per each pair regardless if it is on tech lvl 1 or tech lvl 2.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V4 p1&3

Postby mr. CD on Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:27 pm

DiM wrote:
in the meantime i'd like some input on the neutrals.
i was thinking of making the first row of every tech as 2 and the second row as 3. on all techs, including the objective. and making the bonuses at +2 per each pair regardless if it is on tech lvl 1 or tech lvl 2.


AT 2.5 (by example) only connects to AT 3.1, right? And not AT 3.2, too? Since if they all connect the objective should be a bit higher.
If just one connects; 2 and 3 is fine.
Wouldn't it be nice if Tech 1 connects to Tech 2 in the same way Tech 2 connects to Tech 3? Makes it a bit more like a tech tree. You could add having a DNA lab/Nuke silo to get your bonus.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V4 p1&3

Postby DiM on Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:57 pm

mr. CD wrote:
DiM wrote:
in the meantime i'd like some input on the neutrals.
i was thinking of making the first row of every tech as 2 and the second row as 3. on all techs, including the objective. and making the bonuses at +2 per each pair regardless if it is on tech lvl 1 or tech lvl 2.


AT 2.5 (by example) only connects to AT 3.1, right? And not AT 3.2, too? Since if they all connect the objective should be a bit higher.
If just one connects; 2 and 3 is fine.


i'm working on some arrows to better represent the attack routes.

mr. CD wrote:Wouldn't it be nice if Tech 1 connects to Tech 2 in the same way Tech 2 connects to Tech 3? Makes it a bit more like a tech tree. You could add having a DNA lab/Nuke silo to get your bonus.


from your base you can only do limited research. if you want more research you have to get to a nuke silo or a dna lab.
getting from tech 1 to tech 2 but not gaining the bonus unless you hold dna/nuke seems kinda hard to explain and a bit unrealistic.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V4 p1&3

Postby DiM on Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:51 pm

V6:
lots of text smoothed.
added boxes to better represent the bonuses
colour coded the legend
changed neutral values and bonuses
some typos
moved around some text

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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V4 p1&3

Postby mr. CD on Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:34 am

DiM wrote:i'm working on some arrows to better represent the attack routes.

Good, they do make the text a bit hard to read though.

mr. CD wrote:Wouldn't it be nice if Tech 1 connects to Tech 2 in the same way Tech 2 connects to Tech 3? Makes it a bit more like a tech tree. You could add having a DNA lab/Nuke silo to get your bonus.


from your base you can only do limited research. if you want more research you have to get to a nuke silo or a dna lab.
getting from tech 1 to tech 2 but not gaining the bonus unless you hold dna/nuke seems kinda hard to explain and a bit unrealistic.

Makes sense.

The blue colour @ how to attack the Alien base is quite hard to see.

The text, arrows (besides the ones going through text) and the boxes look very good though.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:18 am

i know the colours on the text aren't very strong. i actually don't want them to be any stronger than this. the text alone should be enough to understand what you need and the colours are as an extra. i don't want them overpowering the text.

as for the arrows behind tech lvl 3 i really don't know what i could do to make them more visible. i was thinking to move the text at the bottom but then it wouldn't be consistent with tech lvl 1 & 2 which are on top.

suggestions are welcome.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby gimil on Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:35 am

The map may just be beyond my ability to understand, but it is pretty.

Can someone dumb down how it works so I have a hope of understanding it, please?
What do you know about map making, bitch?

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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby mr. CD on Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:58 am

DiM wrote:i know the colours on the text aren't very strong. i actually don't want them to be any stronger than this. the text alone should be enough to understand what you need and the colours are as an extra. i don't want them overpowering the text.

as for the arrows behind tech lvl 3 i really don't know what i could do to make them more visible. i was thinking to move the text at the bottom but then it wouldn't be consistent with tech lvl 1 & 2 which are on top.

suggestions are welcome.

Don't like it much, but possibly take away the inner arrows? Should be understandable enough.


gimil wrote:The map may just be beyond my ability to understand, but it is pretty.

Can someone dumb down how it works so I have a hope of understanding it, please?


You start with Alien/Human bases which get +3 auto. From Alien Base, you can attack Alien Tech 1.1-1.4 which can attack the tech underneath it. Those two techs give a bonus of + 2.
Human base does the same, but Human tech.
Nuke Silo gives +1 auto and attacks Human Tech 2.1-2.4, besides that, same as above.
Dna lab does the same, but Alien.
Both 2.5-2.8 techs can attack corresponding 3.1-3.4 (check the arrows) All tech 3 of one race gets you the win.
All DNA labs + any human base gets you a win too.

Why don't all Nuke Silos + any Alien base gets you a win? Would make it more fair imo.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:14 am

gimil wrote:The map may just be beyond my ability to understand, but it is pretty.

Can someone dumb down how it works so I have a hope of understanding it, please?


it's not just a pretty face she also has brains (and boobs) :mrgreen:

here's the brainy part:
8 players will fight on the map to reach one of the 4 objectives (see them in the top righ and top left legends). they also must be careful not to remain without a base or they lose the game.
in round 1 each player will have a base (human or alien) and several non important terits on the map (those that have coloured army numbers on them). from that base each player can one way attack on the map or go and attack the first row of tech level 1 that corresponds to their race. for example a player that starts with an alien base will only be able to attack the alien tech.
then they can progress on the tech tree to acquire the bonuses from tech lvl 1. but the first level is rather limited as it can't attack level 2 and it can bombard just non-important terits on the map. however if they want more bonuses and more tech they have to spread on the map and take nuke silos and dna labs. these will allow access to the first row of tech lvl 2 and the next set of bonuses. also the nukes and labs have a bonus of their own and are part of a winning condition. from the second row of tech lvl 2 more advanced bombardments can be done on the map (see left / right legends for info) as well as gaining access to tech lvl 3. from tech lvl 3 you can finally access the enemy bases and attack them, also if you are of a more peaceful nature you can simply research the whole tech lvl 3 and win the game.
hope that clears things up. it's not the easiest map but it's not that hard either.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:16 am

mr. CD wrote:Why don't all Nuke Silos + any Alien base gets you a win? Would make it more fair imo.


because i think that would be a very hard objective to accomplish.
4 nukes + 4 dna means 8 terits which are highly sought by all players that also give bonuses and are hard to defend.
by comparison gaining a complete tech lvl 3 would be easier because there's no bonus there, the connections to it are limited and there are only 4 borders to defend.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby lostatlimbo on Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:47 pm

There's a lot to take in on this map, but I like where its going. I'm still not certain I know what exactly constitutes a "tech pair" for +2. As I understand from the map, any two tech levels (presumably confined to human or alien) are +2. So HT1.1 and HT1.6 is +2, as are HT1.4 and HT3.5? Similar to Feudal War in a way? This differs from Sully's last post on the subject, but that's what I perceive from looking at the map.

If so, whats the point of Tech level 1? If it can only bombard it is useless. I guess you can build up troops, but you can do the same in Tech level 2, while getting closer to your primary goal. I can attack 5 neutral to get a Tech Level 1 +2 bonus and a dead-end OR attack an adjacent nuke silo with 3 neutral for +1 and be ready for Tech level 2 on my next turn. That's a no-brainer.

That brings up an issue with the current map layout. Some starting positions are currently adjacent to Nukes or DNA labs while others are rather isolated. Even though there are some "non-important" territories (let's find a better term for this!) next to those, the bases getting a +3 autodeploy that can attack a Nuke or DNA lab first turn have a clear advantage. I could see some ugly drop scenarios with the current layout.

The layout of those bases might also cause some bottle-necking issues. For example, SA-2 makes the only passages from one side of the map to the other through either AT1 or SP2. All other routes are blocked by Humans or Aliens. Maps could get lopsided real quick. On the other hand, I suppose its not so different from Arms Race in that regard, so if that is what you are going for, carry on!

Great start! Looking forward to seeing this progress.
Last edited by lostatlimbo on Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby lostatlimbo on Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:54 pm

One last thought... I'd consider getting more creative with your tech level names. There's something about all these HT2.5 AT6.4 names that conflict with the very slick, fun, arcade-style graphics you have going on. HT2.3 looks more like a long-haul trucker's CB radio tag than a top-secret technology advancement. When I look at this map, I see Space Invaders in the middle and Algebra on the sides. I want to know what technology I'm building! :)

I'd be happy to help you brainstorm some names. Like advancing from artillery to lasers? EMPs?
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby mr. CD on Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:15 am

DiM wrote:
mr. CD wrote:Why don't all Nuke Silos + any Alien base gets you a win? Would make it more fair imo.


because i think that would be a very hard objective to accomplish.
4 nukes + 4 dna means 8 terits which are highly sought by all players that also give bonuses and are hard to defend.
by comparison gaining a complete tech lvl 3 would be easier because there's no bonus there, the connections to it are limited and there are only 4 borders to defend.


Yes, but there's a 4 dna + Human base winning condition. Let's say you start with just Alien Bases, you wouldn't be able to win by using that while your opponent could work on that constantly. I'd say either add 4 Nuke Silos and any Alien Base as winning condition or get rid of the 4 dna+ Human base one. That one might be too easy in smaller singles too. Is there any reason why it gains you the win actually? Wouldn't 4 Dna + any Alien base make more sense?

There's a lot to take in on this map, but I like where its going. I'm still not certain I know what exactly constitutes a "tech pair" for +2. As I understand from the map, any two tech levels (presumably confined to human or alien) are +2. So HT1.1 and HT1.6 is +2, as are HT1.4 and HT3.5? Similar to Feudal War in a way? This differs from Sully's last post on the subject, but that's what I perceive from looking at the map.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:30 am

lostatlimbo wrote:There's a lot to take in on this map, but I like where its going. I'm still not certain I know what exactly constitutes a "tech pair" for +2. As I understand from the map, any two tech levels (presumably confined to human or alien) are +2. So HT1.1 and HT1.6 is +2, as are HT1.4 and HT3.5? Similar to Feudal War in a way? This differs from Sully's last post on the subject, but that's what I perceive from looking at the map.

If so, whats the point of Tech level 1? If it can only bombard it is useless. I guess you can build up troops, but you can do the same in Tech level 2, while getting closer to your primary goal. I can attack 5 neutral to get a Tech Level 1 +2 bonus and a dead-end OR attack an adjacent nuke silo with 3 neutral for +1 and be ready for Tech level 2 on my next turn. That's a no-brainer.


on the left/right display you have some techs encased in a box. each box has 2 suchs techs in it with an arrow connecting them. that makes a tech pair that gives +2 troops.
tech lvl 1 bombards non important terits on the map. those are the very terits that are divided amongst each player at the start of the game.
imagine you're in an assassin game. would you rather go through 10 terits to get you your target's final one, or would you take tech lvl 1 and bombard him wherever he is?

lostatlimbo wrote:That brings up an issue with the current map layout. Some starting positions are currently adjacent to Nukes or DNA labs while others are rather isolated. Even though there are some "non-important" territories (let's find a better term for this!) next to those, the bases getting a +3 autodeploy that can attack a Nuke or DNA lab first turn have a clear advantage. I could see some ugly drop scenarios with the current layout.

The layout of those bases might also cause some bottle-necking issues. For example, SA-2 makes the only passages from one side of the map to the other through either AT1 or SP2. All other routes are blocked by Humans or Aliens. Maps could get lopsided real quick. On the other hand, I suppose its not so different from Arms Race in that regard, so if that is what you are going for, carry on!

Great start! Looking forward to seeing this progress.


yes i'm aware the map layout has many problems.
i will work on it and hopefully get a more balanced one.

i want each starting base to be surrounded only by neutral terits. this way each player will have the choice to either attack a 2 and a 3 (neutrals) on tech lvl 1 to get his hand on a pair and a +2 bonus. or to attack another player's 3 stack from base and then another 3 (neutral) on a dna lab/ nuke silo (for +1 and access to tech lvl 2), or even start attacking from a non important terit that he got from the start.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:35 am

lostatlimbo wrote:One last thought... I'd consider getting more creative with your tech level names. There's something about all these HT2.5 AT6.4 names that conflict with the very slick, fun, arcade-style graphics you have going on. HT2.3 looks more like a long-haul trucker's CB radio tag than a top-secret technology advancement. When I look at this map, I see Space Invaders in the middle and Algebra on the sides. I want to know what technology I'm building! :)

I'd be happy to help you brainstorm some names. Like advancing from artillery to lasers? EMPs?


i've been told this but i don't know what to say. on one hand i'd love to see some specific names especially if they're good ones. but on the other hand i like the fact that the current names give you a mental image of their location very easily. when you say HT2.3 you immediately know it's the 3rd terit on the 2nd row for tech lvl 2 on the human tech tree.
however if there were distinct tech names that i could shorten to 2 characters and use them like i do now perhaps it would be the same.
for example alien tech lvl 2 could be "Gene Splicing" and i'd have terit names like this: GS-1, GS-2....GS-8
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:39 am

mr. CD wrote:
DiM wrote:
mr. CD wrote:Why don't all Nuke Silos + any Alien base gets you a win? Would make it more fair imo.


because i think that would be a very hard objective to accomplish.
4 nukes + 4 dna means 8 terits which are highly sought by all players that also give bonuses and are hard to defend.
by comparison gaining a complete tech lvl 3 would be easier because there's no bonus there, the connections to it are limited and there are only 4 borders to defend.


Yes, but there's a 4 dna + Human base winning condition. Let's say you start with just Alien Bases, you wouldn't be able to win by using that while your opponent could work on that constantly. I'd say either add 4 Nuke Silos and any Alien Base as winning condition or get rid of the 4 dna+ Human base one. That one might be too easy in smaller singles too. Is there any reason why it gains you the win actually? Wouldn't 4 Dna + any Alien base make more sense?



top left legend and top right legend contain all 4 winning objectives as well as the 2 losing conditions.
among all those i already have human base + 4 dna labs as well as alien base +4 nukes. so regardless of the base you start with you can go for any one of those 2 objectives. or you can go for the tech lvl 3 objective.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby mr. CD on Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:44 am

DiM wrote:
mr. CD wrote:
DiM wrote:
mr. CD wrote:Why don't all Nuke Silos + any Alien base gets you a win? Would make it more fair imo.


because i think that would be a very hard objective to accomplish.
4 nukes + 4 dna means 8 terits which are highly sought by all players that also give bonuses and are hard to defend.
by comparison gaining a complete tech lvl 3 would be easier because there's no bonus there, the connections to it are limited and there are only 4 borders to defend.


Yes, but there's a 4 dna + Human base winning condition. Let's say you start with just Alien Bases, you wouldn't be able to win by using that while your opponent could work on that constantly. I'd say either add 4 Nuke Silos and any Alien Base as winning condition or get rid of the 4 dna+ Human base one. That one might be too easy in smaller singles too. Is there any reason why it gains you the win actually? Wouldn't 4 Dna + any Alien base make more sense?



top left legend and top right legend contain all 4 winning objectives as well as the 2 losing conditions.
among all those i already have human base + 4 dna labs as well as alien base +4 nukes. so regardless of the base you start with you can go for any one of those 2 objectives. or you can go for the tech lvl 3 objective.


It doesn't say Alien Base +4 nukes, it just says Human base + 4 dna labs.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:36 am

mr. CD wrote:It doesn't say Alien Base +4 nukes, it just says Human base + 4 dna labs.


LOL, you're absolutely right. i must have copy pasted the same text and forgot to change it.
i'll change it now :oops:
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:32 am

V7.
fixed the objective mistake in the legend
made new connections and moved around some terits.


i need feedback on the following:
1. terits and connections
2. tech names
3. should i leave the autodeployed bonuses or make them in-hand?


Click image to enlarge.
image
Last edited by DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby mr. CD on Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:03 am

DiM wrote:V7.
fixed the objective mistake in the legend
made new connections and moved around some terits.


i need feedback on the following:
1. terits and connections
2. tech names
3. should i leave the autodeployed bonuses or make them in-hand?


Click image to enlarge.
image


Put a space between any and alien in the left legend
A few numbers are somewhat misplaced now (if you didn't notice yet)
Keep the auto-deploybonuses imo.
Maybe swap A5-6 and PA-1 and connect NP-4 to PA-1 too then? Seems a bit crowded over there now and starting with a base with just one way out makes you easy to isolate.
Will give the tech names some thought.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:06 am

mr. CD wrote:Put a space between any and alien in the left legend
A few numbers are somewhat misplaced now (if you didn't notice yet)


it should be ok now. i also added more connections on the map. just hit ctrl+F5 and the image will refresh.

mr. CD wrote:Keep the auto-deploybonuses imo.
Maybe swap A5-6 and PA-1 and connect NP-4 to PA-1 too then? Seems a bit crowded over there now and starting with a base with just one way out makes you easy to isolate.
Will give the tech names some thought.


the reason i'm considering removing the autodeploy is that i want to give more freedom especially in the first rounds.
if the bonus is autodeployed then the first attack will come only from the base. but if the bonus is in hand then you could deploy it in a non important terit and attack from there.
as for isolation, remember that each player starts with some non important terits and they can attack from there and open up new possibilities.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [15.Aug.11] - V7 p1&5

Postby Coleman on Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:58 pm

Well, the high level play for these kinds of maps is figuring out how much bonus you need before you just start stacking troops up to eliminate everyone. I think the auto-deploy somewhat limits that if the starting territories are not convenient for attacking from to wipe out the map.

Wow I worded that last part horribly.

To put it another way, from the looks of things it won't matter too much on this map one way or the other in the later rounds, so you might as well give them options. I'd almost like to see the low level tech auto deploy 1, so that players who know how and when to roll/fort can still tech up while stacking. Slowly of course, but I'd hate to see some Major figure out that he doesn't even need to try to tech at all, would take away from the map.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the map though, I could be completely off about that auto deploy 1 idea.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [15.Aug.11] - V7 p1&5

Postby DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:44 pm

in theory you can win the game without even going to the tech tree. you'd just have to keep your base and take all dna labs or all nuke silos depending on what base you have. but i hardly think anybody is going to let you do that. and if they're stupid enough to let you then you deserve the win.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [15.Aug.11] - V7 p1&5

Postby ManBungalow on Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:41 pm

DiM wrote:in theory you can win the game without even going to the tech tree. you'd just have to keep your base and take all dna labs or all nuke silos depending on what base you have.

From the legend I understand that the only way to take, say, a human base, is to go through alien tech level 3 - through the tech tree, as it were. I'm a little confused, but some clarification of this point would be nice.

At any rate, this all looks very interesting, and I think I've gotten my head around the gameplay now.

I'm guessing the legend at the bottom is supposed to read "can attack HT 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4" instead of "can attack HT 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, 2.4" next to the human base.

Eh, I'll comment here again sometime with a fresh perspective.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby lostatlimbo on Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:21 pm

DiM wrote:on the left/right display you have some techs encased in a box. each box has 2 suchs techs in it with an arrow connecting them. that makes a tech pair that gives +2 troops.


The confusion stems from which two territory names you chose as an example.
Image

HT1.4 and HT2.8 are not connected on the map, so this makes me wonder why you chose those values. (Especially since 2.8 is 1.4 squared).

I think it would be clearer if you simplified your example to an actual pair on the map:
Image

DiM wrote:tech lvl 1 bombards non important terits on the map. those are the very terits that are divided amongst each player at the start of the game.
imagine you're in an assassin game. would you rather go through 10 terits to get you your target's final one, or would you take tech lvl 1 and bombard him wherever he is?


Fair point. I don't play much assassin, so that didn't occur to me. Still, I think allowing them to attack non-important territs makes things more interesting. There are no bonuses for those territs, so they won't be well guarded once gameplay advances, but if you use Tech level 1 as a way to maneuver your armies on the map, the layout will be less of an issue.

As to the terminology, what about something like "evacuation zone" for the non-important territories?

Another idea would be something along the lines of "resupply" or "shipment". You do, after all, still need natural resources to make use of all your technological advancements and because these 'non-important' territories are actually important in how you move on the map, it would be akin to a naval or land blockade when your opponent bombards or attacks them.

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