All Your Base Are Belong To Us

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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V4 p1&3

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:37 am

mr. CD wrote:Is there a bonus for amount of regions on this map?
When playing 1v1 or 1v1v1, would everyone get both an alien and a human base? Since if both players in 1v1 have the same base(s) it'd get a bit silly and in 1v1v1 if one player has a human base and two players an alien base, the player with the human base would most likely win. So I'd say yes, make it 1 each.
Might still make it a bit tricky with 5 players though.

I'm not so sure one can code it such that each person starts out specifically with one human and one alien base, but I can code it such that each person gets two bases maximum.

I figure for the regions that I would nix the standard region bonus and code a continent equivalent to the region bonus for all of the non-tech regions, though I'm not sure how DiM feels about this.

-Sully
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V4 p1&3

Postby DiM on Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:10 am

Nola_Lifer wrote:I liked the brighter green on those numbers and Research, Fight, Survive.


it felt too bright to me and too distracting from the actual map.

Nola_Lifer wrote:Also, the Alien Base symbol on the map blends in too much on the background. :)


i'll tweak the background to make it better.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V4 p1&3

Postby DiM on Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:15 am

Victor Sullivan wrote:You have a lot of text on there. Try to shorten things, or include visual aids instead. One thing I thought of that you could do is define a "tech pair" as a certain 'box', then box each pair of tech territories, then say "Any one LVL 1 tech pair: +2" and "Any one LVL 2 tech pair: +3". Also, I think it would be more helpful if you put the relevant information to each tech level right by each tech level. It would be a lot easier to follow.

-Sully



that is actually a good idea and if it works it could save some space. however i'm not sure how i could go around making those "boxes" without cluttering the tech tree like hell. tonight while i'm at work i'll try to come up with a solution.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V4 p1&3

Postby DiM on Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:30 am

mr. CD wrote:Is there a bonus for amount of regions on this map?


i'm not planning on any bonus at all for the amount of regions. it will be zero regardless of how many you have.

Victor Sullivan wrote:
mr. CD wrote:When playing 1v1 or 1v1v1, would everyone get both an alien and a human base? Since if both players in 1v1 have the same base(s) it'd get a bit silly and in 1v1v1 if one player has a human base and two players an alien base, the player with the human base would most likely win. So I'd say yes, make it 1 each.
Might still make it a bit tricky with 5 players though.

I'm not so sure one can code it such that each person starts out specifically with one human and one alien base, but I can code it such that each person gets two bases maximum.

I figure for the regions that I would nix the standard region bonus and code a continent equivalent to the region bonus for all of the non-tech regions, though I'm not sure how DiM feels about this.

-Sully


i don't see it as a big problem if 1 player starts as human and 2 others start as alien simply because the tech trees connect to eachother via the nukes and dna labs.
so even if i start with an alien base i can go for a nuke silo (+1) and from there go to the human tech lvl 2.
yes, indeed the human will be the only one to access human tech lvl 1 so you might regard that as an advantage. however it could also be a disadvantage because if he focuses just on that then he battles neutrals and stretches himself thin allowing the other players to get the bonuses on the map. i think the map is very open when it comes to connections and it has lots of bonus options to avoid giving any player a clear advantage.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V4 p1&3

Postby Coleman on Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:36 am

DiM wrote:the world display has a new texture


I really really don't like the new texture. It made everything a lot harder to read for me. You may need to brighten the text to compensate or just go back to the v1 texture/brightness which I liked much more.

Victor Sullivan wrote:I'm not so sure one can code it such that each person starts out specifically with one human and one alien base, but I can code it such that each person gets two bases maximum.


You could but they would always have the same human and alien base combo which takes away from the intrigue/randomness of the map. Which, IMO, would suck.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V4 p1&3

Postby DiM on Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:07 pm

Coleman wrote:
DiM wrote:the world display has a new texture


I really really don't like the new texture. It made everything a lot harder to read for me. You may need to brighten the text to compensate or just go back to the v1 texture/brightness which I liked much more.



seeing as you're not the only one complaining about the new texture i'll just revert to the old one.
i've also smoothed out some text and i'm currently working on implementing sully's box suggestion.

in the meantime i'd like some input on the neutrals.
i was thinking of making the first row of every tech as 2 and the second row as 3. on all techs, including the objective. and making the bonuses at +2 per each pair regardless if it is on tech lvl 1 or tech lvl 2.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V4 p1&3

Postby mr. CD on Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:27 pm

DiM wrote:
in the meantime i'd like some input on the neutrals.
i was thinking of making the first row of every tech as 2 and the second row as 3. on all techs, including the objective. and making the bonuses at +2 per each pair regardless if it is on tech lvl 1 or tech lvl 2.


AT 2.5 (by example) only connects to AT 3.1, right? And not AT 3.2, too? Since if they all connect the objective should be a bit higher.
If just one connects; 2 and 3 is fine.
Wouldn't it be nice if Tech 1 connects to Tech 2 in the same way Tech 2 connects to Tech 3? Makes it a bit more like a tech tree. You could add having a DNA lab/Nuke silo to get your bonus.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V4 p1&3

Postby DiM on Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:57 pm

mr. CD wrote:
DiM wrote:
in the meantime i'd like some input on the neutrals.
i was thinking of making the first row of every tech as 2 and the second row as 3. on all techs, including the objective. and making the bonuses at +2 per each pair regardless if it is on tech lvl 1 or tech lvl 2.


AT 2.5 (by example) only connects to AT 3.1, right? And not AT 3.2, too? Since if they all connect the objective should be a bit higher.
If just one connects; 2 and 3 is fine.


i'm working on some arrows to better represent the attack routes.

mr. CD wrote:Wouldn't it be nice if Tech 1 connects to Tech 2 in the same way Tech 2 connects to Tech 3? Makes it a bit more like a tech tree. You could add having a DNA lab/Nuke silo to get your bonus.


from your base you can only do limited research. if you want more research you have to get to a nuke silo or a dna lab.
getting from tech 1 to tech 2 but not gaining the bonus unless you hold dna/nuke seems kinda hard to explain and a bit unrealistic.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V4 p1&3

Postby DiM on Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:51 pm

V6:
lots of text smoothed.
added boxes to better represent the bonuses
colour coded the legend
changed neutral values and bonuses
some typos
moved around some text

Click image to enlarge.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V4 p1&3

Postby mr. CD on Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:34 am

DiM wrote:i'm working on some arrows to better represent the attack routes.

Good, they do make the text a bit hard to read though.

mr. CD wrote:Wouldn't it be nice if Tech 1 connects to Tech 2 in the same way Tech 2 connects to Tech 3? Makes it a bit more like a tech tree. You could add having a DNA lab/Nuke silo to get your bonus.


from your base you can only do limited research. if you want more research you have to get to a nuke silo or a dna lab.
getting from tech 1 to tech 2 but not gaining the bonus unless you hold dna/nuke seems kinda hard to explain and a bit unrealistic.

Makes sense.

The blue colour @ how to attack the Alien base is quite hard to see.

The text, arrows (besides the ones going through text) and the boxes look very good though.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:18 am

i know the colours on the text aren't very strong. i actually don't want them to be any stronger than this. the text alone should be enough to understand what you need and the colours are as an extra. i don't want them overpowering the text.

as for the arrows behind tech lvl 3 i really don't know what i could do to make them more visible. i was thinking to move the text at the bottom but then it wouldn't be consistent with tech lvl 1 & 2 which are on top.

suggestions are welcome.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby gimil on Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:35 am

The map may just be beyond my ability to understand, but it is pretty.

Can someone dumb down how it works so I have a hope of understanding it, please?
What do you know about map making, bitch?

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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby mr. CD on Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:58 am

DiM wrote:i know the colours on the text aren't very strong. i actually don't want them to be any stronger than this. the text alone should be enough to understand what you need and the colours are as an extra. i don't want them overpowering the text.

as for the arrows behind tech lvl 3 i really don't know what i could do to make them more visible. i was thinking to move the text at the bottom but then it wouldn't be consistent with tech lvl 1 & 2 which are on top.

suggestions are welcome.

Don't like it much, but possibly take away the inner arrows? Should be understandable enough.


gimil wrote:The map may just be beyond my ability to understand, but it is pretty.

Can someone dumb down how it works so I have a hope of understanding it, please?


You start with Alien/Human bases which get +3 auto. From Alien Base, you can attack Alien Tech 1.1-1.4 which can attack the tech underneath it. Those two techs give a bonus of + 2.
Human base does the same, but Human tech.
Nuke Silo gives +1 auto and attacks Human Tech 2.1-2.4, besides that, same as above.
Dna lab does the same, but Alien.
Both 2.5-2.8 techs can attack corresponding 3.1-3.4 (check the arrows) All tech 3 of one race gets you the win.
All DNA labs + any human base gets you a win too.

Why don't all Nuke Silos + any Alien base gets you a win? Would make it more fair imo.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:14 am

gimil wrote:The map may just be beyond my ability to understand, but it is pretty.

Can someone dumb down how it works so I have a hope of understanding it, please?


it's not just a pretty face she also has brains (and boobs) :mrgreen:

here's the brainy part:
8 players will fight on the map to reach one of the 4 objectives (see them in the top righ and top left legends). they also must be careful not to remain without a base or they lose the game.
in round 1 each player will have a base (human or alien) and several non important terits on the map (those that have coloured army numbers on them). from that base each player can one way attack on the map or go and attack the first row of tech level 1 that corresponds to their race. for example a player that starts with an alien base will only be able to attack the alien tech.
then they can progress on the tech tree to acquire the bonuses from tech lvl 1. but the first level is rather limited as it can't attack level 2 and it can bombard just non-important terits on the map. however if they want more bonuses and more tech they have to spread on the map and take nuke silos and dna labs. these will allow access to the first row of tech lvl 2 and the next set of bonuses. also the nukes and labs have a bonus of their own and are part of a winning condition. from the second row of tech lvl 2 more advanced bombardments can be done on the map (see left / right legends for info) as well as gaining access to tech lvl 3. from tech lvl 3 you can finally access the enemy bases and attack them, also if you are of a more peaceful nature you can simply research the whole tech lvl 3 and win the game.
hope that clears things up. it's not the easiest map but it's not that hard either.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:16 am

mr. CD wrote:Why don't all Nuke Silos + any Alien base gets you a win? Would make it more fair imo.


because i think that would be a very hard objective to accomplish.
4 nukes + 4 dna means 8 terits which are highly sought by all players that also give bonuses and are hard to defend.
by comparison gaining a complete tech lvl 3 would be easier because there's no bonus there, the connections to it are limited and there are only 4 borders to defend.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby lostatlimbo on Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:47 pm

There's a lot to take in on this map, but I like where its going. I'm still not certain I know what exactly constitutes a "tech pair" for +2. As I understand from the map, any two tech levels (presumably confined to human or alien) are +2. So HT1.1 and HT1.6 is +2, as are HT1.4 and HT3.5? Similar to Feudal War in a way? This differs from Sully's last post on the subject, but that's what I perceive from looking at the map.

If so, whats the point of Tech level 1? If it can only bombard it is useless. I guess you can build up troops, but you can do the same in Tech level 2, while getting closer to your primary goal. I can attack 5 neutral to get a Tech Level 1 +2 bonus and a dead-end OR attack an adjacent nuke silo with 3 neutral for +1 and be ready for Tech level 2 on my next turn. That's a no-brainer.

That brings up an issue with the current map layout. Some starting positions are currently adjacent to Nukes or DNA labs while others are rather isolated. Even though there are some "non-important" territories (let's find a better term for this!) next to those, the bases getting a +3 autodeploy that can attack a Nuke or DNA lab first turn have a clear advantage. I could see some ugly drop scenarios with the current layout.

The layout of those bases might also cause some bottle-necking issues. For example, SA-2 makes the only passages from one side of the map to the other through either AT1 or SP2. All other routes are blocked by Humans or Aliens. Maps could get lopsided real quick. On the other hand, I suppose its not so different from Arms Race in that regard, so if that is what you are going for, carry on!

Great start! Looking forward to seeing this progress.
Last edited by lostatlimbo on Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby lostatlimbo on Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:54 pm

One last thought... I'd consider getting more creative with your tech level names. There's something about all these HT2.5 AT6.4 names that conflict with the very slick, fun, arcade-style graphics you have going on. HT2.3 looks more like a long-haul trucker's CB radio tag than a top-secret technology advancement. When I look at this map, I see Space Invaders in the middle and Algebra on the sides. I want to know what technology I'm building! :)

I'd be happy to help you brainstorm some names. Like advancing from artillery to lasers? EMPs?
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby mr. CD on Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:15 am

DiM wrote:
mr. CD wrote:Why don't all Nuke Silos + any Alien base gets you a win? Would make it more fair imo.


because i think that would be a very hard objective to accomplish.
4 nukes + 4 dna means 8 terits which are highly sought by all players that also give bonuses and are hard to defend.
by comparison gaining a complete tech lvl 3 would be easier because there's no bonus there, the connections to it are limited and there are only 4 borders to defend.


Yes, but there's a 4 dna + Human base winning condition. Let's say you start with just Alien Bases, you wouldn't be able to win by using that while your opponent could work on that constantly. I'd say either add 4 Nuke Silos and any Alien Base as winning condition or get rid of the 4 dna+ Human base one. That one might be too easy in smaller singles too. Is there any reason why it gains you the win actually? Wouldn't 4 Dna + any Alien base make more sense?

There's a lot to take in on this map, but I like where its going. I'm still not certain I know what exactly constitutes a "tech pair" for +2. As I understand from the map, any two tech levels (presumably confined to human or alien) are +2. So HT1.1 and HT1.6 is +2, as are HT1.4 and HT3.5? Similar to Feudal War in a way? This differs from Sully's last post on the subject, but that's what I perceive from looking at the map.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:30 am

lostatlimbo wrote:There's a lot to take in on this map, but I like where its going. I'm still not certain I know what exactly constitutes a "tech pair" for +2. As I understand from the map, any two tech levels (presumably confined to human or alien) are +2. So HT1.1 and HT1.6 is +2, as are HT1.4 and HT3.5? Similar to Feudal War in a way? This differs from Sully's last post on the subject, but that's what I perceive from looking at the map.

If so, whats the point of Tech level 1? If it can only bombard it is useless. I guess you can build up troops, but you can do the same in Tech level 2, while getting closer to your primary goal. I can attack 5 neutral to get a Tech Level 1 +2 bonus and a dead-end OR attack an adjacent nuke silo with 3 neutral for +1 and be ready for Tech level 2 on my next turn. That's a no-brainer.


on the left/right display you have some techs encased in a box. each box has 2 suchs techs in it with an arrow connecting them. that makes a tech pair that gives +2 troops.
tech lvl 1 bombards non important terits on the map. those are the very terits that are divided amongst each player at the start of the game.
imagine you're in an assassin game. would you rather go through 10 terits to get you your target's final one, or would you take tech lvl 1 and bombard him wherever he is?

lostatlimbo wrote:That brings up an issue with the current map layout. Some starting positions are currently adjacent to Nukes or DNA labs while others are rather isolated. Even though there are some "non-important" territories (let's find a better term for this!) next to those, the bases getting a +3 autodeploy that can attack a Nuke or DNA lab first turn have a clear advantage. I could see some ugly drop scenarios with the current layout.

The layout of those bases might also cause some bottle-necking issues. For example, SA-2 makes the only passages from one side of the map to the other through either AT1 or SP2. All other routes are blocked by Humans or Aliens. Maps could get lopsided real quick. On the other hand, I suppose its not so different from Arms Race in that regard, so if that is what you are going for, carry on!

Great start! Looking forward to seeing this progress.


yes i'm aware the map layout has many problems.
i will work on it and hopefully get a more balanced one.

i want each starting base to be surrounded only by neutral terits. this way each player will have the choice to either attack a 2 and a 3 (neutrals) on tech lvl 1 to get his hand on a pair and a +2 bonus. or to attack another player's 3 stack from base and then another 3 (neutral) on a dna lab/ nuke silo (for +1 and access to tech lvl 2), or even start attacking from a non important terit that he got from the start.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:35 am

lostatlimbo wrote:One last thought... I'd consider getting more creative with your tech level names. There's something about all these HT2.5 AT6.4 names that conflict with the very slick, fun, arcade-style graphics you have going on. HT2.3 looks more like a long-haul trucker's CB radio tag than a top-secret technology advancement. When I look at this map, I see Space Invaders in the middle and Algebra on the sides. I want to know what technology I'm building! :)

I'd be happy to help you brainstorm some names. Like advancing from artillery to lasers? EMPs?


i've been told this but i don't know what to say. on one hand i'd love to see some specific names especially if they're good ones. but on the other hand i like the fact that the current names give you a mental image of their location very easily. when you say HT2.3 you immediately know it's the 3rd terit on the 2nd row for tech lvl 2 on the human tech tree.
however if there were distinct tech names that i could shorten to 2 characters and use them like i do now perhaps it would be the same.
for example alien tech lvl 2 could be "Gene Splicing" and i'd have terit names like this: GS-1, GS-2....GS-8
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:39 am

mr. CD wrote:
DiM wrote:
mr. CD wrote:Why don't all Nuke Silos + any Alien base gets you a win? Would make it more fair imo.


because i think that would be a very hard objective to accomplish.
4 nukes + 4 dna means 8 terits which are highly sought by all players that also give bonuses and are hard to defend.
by comparison gaining a complete tech lvl 3 would be easier because there's no bonus there, the connections to it are limited and there are only 4 borders to defend.


Yes, but there's a 4 dna + Human base winning condition. Let's say you start with just Alien Bases, you wouldn't be able to win by using that while your opponent could work on that constantly. I'd say either add 4 Nuke Silos and any Alien Base as winning condition or get rid of the 4 dna+ Human base one. That one might be too easy in smaller singles too. Is there any reason why it gains you the win actually? Wouldn't 4 Dna + any Alien base make more sense?



top left legend and top right legend contain all 4 winning objectives as well as the 2 losing conditions.
among all those i already have human base + 4 dna labs as well as alien base +4 nukes. so regardless of the base you start with you can go for any one of those 2 objectives. or you can go for the tech lvl 3 objective.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby mr. CD on Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:44 am

DiM wrote:
mr. CD wrote:
DiM wrote:
mr. CD wrote:Why don't all Nuke Silos + any Alien base gets you a win? Would make it more fair imo.


because i think that would be a very hard objective to accomplish.
4 nukes + 4 dna means 8 terits which are highly sought by all players that also give bonuses and are hard to defend.
by comparison gaining a complete tech lvl 3 would be easier because there's no bonus there, the connections to it are limited and there are only 4 borders to defend.


Yes, but there's a 4 dna + Human base winning condition. Let's say you start with just Alien Bases, you wouldn't be able to win by using that while your opponent could work on that constantly. I'd say either add 4 Nuke Silos and any Alien Base as winning condition or get rid of the 4 dna+ Human base one. That one might be too easy in smaller singles too. Is there any reason why it gains you the win actually? Wouldn't 4 Dna + any Alien base make more sense?



top left legend and top right legend contain all 4 winning objectives as well as the 2 losing conditions.
among all those i already have human base + 4 dna labs as well as alien base +4 nukes. so regardless of the base you start with you can go for any one of those 2 objectives. or you can go for the tech lvl 3 objective.


It doesn't say Alien Base +4 nukes, it just says Human base + 4 dna labs.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:36 am

mr. CD wrote:It doesn't say Alien Base +4 nukes, it just says Human base + 4 dna labs.


LOL, you're absolutely right. i must have copy pasted the same text and forgot to change it.
i'll change it now :oops:
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:32 am

V7.
fixed the objective mistake in the legend
made new connections and moved around some terits.


i need feedback on the following:
1. terits and connections
2. tech names
3. should i leave the autodeployed bonuses or make them in-hand?


Click image to enlarge.
image
Last edited by DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby mr. CD on Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:03 am

DiM wrote:V7.
fixed the objective mistake in the legend
made new connections and moved around some terits.


i need feedback on the following:
1. terits and connections
2. tech names
3. should i leave the autodeployed bonuses or make them in-hand?


Click image to enlarge.
image


Put a space between any and alien in the left legend
A few numbers are somewhat misplaced now (if you didn't notice yet)
Keep the auto-deploybonuses imo.
Maybe swap A5-6 and PA-1 and connect NP-4 to PA-1 too then? Seems a bit crowded over there now and starting with a base with just one way out makes you easy to isolate.
Will give the tech names some thought.
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