All Your Base Are Belong To Us

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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby lostatlimbo on Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:47 pm

There's a lot to take in on this map, but I like where its going. I'm still not certain I know what exactly constitutes a "tech pair" for +2. As I understand from the map, any two tech levels (presumably confined to human or alien) are +2. So HT1.1 and HT1.6 is +2, as are HT1.4 and HT3.5? Similar to Feudal War in a way? This differs from Sully's last post on the subject, but that's what I perceive from looking at the map.

If so, whats the point of Tech level 1? If it can only bombard it is useless. I guess you can build up troops, but you can do the same in Tech level 2, while getting closer to your primary goal. I can attack 5 neutral to get a Tech Level 1 +2 bonus and a dead-end OR attack an adjacent nuke silo with 3 neutral for +1 and be ready for Tech level 2 on my next turn. That's a no-brainer.

That brings up an issue with the current map layout. Some starting positions are currently adjacent to Nukes or DNA labs while others are rather isolated. Even though there are some "non-important" territories (let's find a better term for this!) next to those, the bases getting a +3 autodeploy that can attack a Nuke or DNA lab first turn have a clear advantage. I could see some ugly drop scenarios with the current layout.

The layout of those bases might also cause some bottle-necking issues. For example, SA-2 makes the only passages from one side of the map to the other through either AT1 or SP2. All other routes are blocked by Humans or Aliens. Maps could get lopsided real quick. On the other hand, I suppose its not so different from Arms Race in that regard, so if that is what you are going for, carry on!

Great start! Looking forward to seeing this progress.
Last edited by lostatlimbo on Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby lostatlimbo on Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:54 pm

One last thought... I'd consider getting more creative with your tech level names. There's something about all these HT2.5 AT6.4 names that conflict with the very slick, fun, arcade-style graphics you have going on. HT2.3 looks more like a long-haul trucker's CB radio tag than a top-secret technology advancement. When I look at this map, I see Space Invaders in the middle and Algebra on the sides. I want to know what technology I'm building! :)

I'd be happy to help you brainstorm some names. Like advancing from artillery to lasers? EMPs?
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby mr. CD on Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:15 am

DiM wrote:
mr. CD wrote:Why don't all Nuke Silos + any Alien base gets you a win? Would make it more fair imo.


because i think that would be a very hard objective to accomplish.
4 nukes + 4 dna means 8 terits which are highly sought by all players that also give bonuses and are hard to defend.
by comparison gaining a complete tech lvl 3 would be easier because there's no bonus there, the connections to it are limited and there are only 4 borders to defend.


Yes, but there's a 4 dna + Human base winning condition. Let's say you start with just Alien Bases, you wouldn't be able to win by using that while your opponent could work on that constantly. I'd say either add 4 Nuke Silos and any Alien Base as winning condition or get rid of the 4 dna+ Human base one. That one might be too easy in smaller singles too. Is there any reason why it gains you the win actually? Wouldn't 4 Dna + any Alien base make more sense?

There's a lot to take in on this map, but I like where its going. I'm still not certain I know what exactly constitutes a "tech pair" for +2. As I understand from the map, any two tech levels (presumably confined to human or alien) are +2. So HT1.1 and HT1.6 is +2, as are HT1.4 and HT3.5? Similar to Feudal War in a way? This differs from Sully's last post on the subject, but that's what I perceive from looking at the map.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:30 am

lostatlimbo wrote:There's a lot to take in on this map, but I like where its going. I'm still not certain I know what exactly constitutes a "tech pair" for +2. As I understand from the map, any two tech levels (presumably confined to human or alien) are +2. So HT1.1 and HT1.6 is +2, as are HT1.4 and HT3.5? Similar to Feudal War in a way? This differs from Sully's last post on the subject, but that's what I perceive from looking at the map.

If so, whats the point of Tech level 1? If it can only bombard it is useless. I guess you can build up troops, but you can do the same in Tech level 2, while getting closer to your primary goal. I can attack 5 neutral to get a Tech Level 1 +2 bonus and a dead-end OR attack an adjacent nuke silo with 3 neutral for +1 and be ready for Tech level 2 on my next turn. That's a no-brainer.


on the left/right display you have some techs encased in a box. each box has 2 suchs techs in it with an arrow connecting them. that makes a tech pair that gives +2 troops.
tech lvl 1 bombards non important terits on the map. those are the very terits that are divided amongst each player at the start of the game.
imagine you're in an assassin game. would you rather go through 10 terits to get you your target's final one, or would you take tech lvl 1 and bombard him wherever he is?

lostatlimbo wrote:That brings up an issue with the current map layout. Some starting positions are currently adjacent to Nukes or DNA labs while others are rather isolated. Even though there are some "non-important" territories (let's find a better term for this!) next to those, the bases getting a +3 autodeploy that can attack a Nuke or DNA lab first turn have a clear advantage. I could see some ugly drop scenarios with the current layout.

The layout of those bases might also cause some bottle-necking issues. For example, SA-2 makes the only passages from one side of the map to the other through either AT1 or SP2. All other routes are blocked by Humans or Aliens. Maps could get lopsided real quick. On the other hand, I suppose its not so different from Arms Race in that regard, so if that is what you are going for, carry on!

Great start! Looking forward to seeing this progress.


yes i'm aware the map layout has many problems.
i will work on it and hopefully get a more balanced one.

i want each starting base to be surrounded only by neutral terits. this way each player will have the choice to either attack a 2 and a 3 (neutrals) on tech lvl 1 to get his hand on a pair and a +2 bonus. or to attack another player's 3 stack from base and then another 3 (neutral) on a dna lab/ nuke silo (for +1 and access to tech lvl 2), or even start attacking from a non important terit that he got from the start.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:35 am

lostatlimbo wrote:One last thought... I'd consider getting more creative with your tech level names. There's something about all these HT2.5 AT6.4 names that conflict with the very slick, fun, arcade-style graphics you have going on. HT2.3 looks more like a long-haul trucker's CB radio tag than a top-secret technology advancement. When I look at this map, I see Space Invaders in the middle and Algebra on the sides. I want to know what technology I'm building! :)

I'd be happy to help you brainstorm some names. Like advancing from artillery to lasers? EMPs?


i've been told this but i don't know what to say. on one hand i'd love to see some specific names especially if they're good ones. but on the other hand i like the fact that the current names give you a mental image of their location very easily. when you say HT2.3 you immediately know it's the 3rd terit on the 2nd row for tech lvl 2 on the human tech tree.
however if there were distinct tech names that i could shorten to 2 characters and use them like i do now perhaps it would be the same.
for example alien tech lvl 2 could be "Gene Splicing" and i'd have terit names like this: GS-1, GS-2....GS-8
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:39 am

mr. CD wrote:
DiM wrote:
mr. CD wrote:Why don't all Nuke Silos + any Alien base gets you a win? Would make it more fair imo.


because i think that would be a very hard objective to accomplish.
4 nukes + 4 dna means 8 terits which are highly sought by all players that also give bonuses and are hard to defend.
by comparison gaining a complete tech lvl 3 would be easier because there's no bonus there, the connections to it are limited and there are only 4 borders to defend.


Yes, but there's a 4 dna + Human base winning condition. Let's say you start with just Alien Bases, you wouldn't be able to win by using that while your opponent could work on that constantly. I'd say either add 4 Nuke Silos and any Alien Base as winning condition or get rid of the 4 dna+ Human base one. That one might be too easy in smaller singles too. Is there any reason why it gains you the win actually? Wouldn't 4 Dna + any Alien base make more sense?



top left legend and top right legend contain all 4 winning objectives as well as the 2 losing conditions.
among all those i already have human base + 4 dna labs as well as alien base +4 nukes. so regardless of the base you start with you can go for any one of those 2 objectives. or you can go for the tech lvl 3 objective.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby mr. CD on Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:44 am

DiM wrote:
mr. CD wrote:
DiM wrote:
mr. CD wrote:Why don't all Nuke Silos + any Alien base gets you a win? Would make it more fair imo.


because i think that would be a very hard objective to accomplish.
4 nukes + 4 dna means 8 terits which are highly sought by all players that also give bonuses and are hard to defend.
by comparison gaining a complete tech lvl 3 would be easier because there's no bonus there, the connections to it are limited and there are only 4 borders to defend.


Yes, but there's a 4 dna + Human base winning condition. Let's say you start with just Alien Bases, you wouldn't be able to win by using that while your opponent could work on that constantly. I'd say either add 4 Nuke Silos and any Alien Base as winning condition or get rid of the 4 dna+ Human base one. That one might be too easy in smaller singles too. Is there any reason why it gains you the win actually? Wouldn't 4 Dna + any Alien base make more sense?



top left legend and top right legend contain all 4 winning objectives as well as the 2 losing conditions.
among all those i already have human base + 4 dna labs as well as alien base +4 nukes. so regardless of the base you start with you can go for any one of those 2 objectives. or you can go for the tech lvl 3 objective.


It doesn't say Alien Base +4 nukes, it just says Human base + 4 dna labs.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:36 am

mr. CD wrote:It doesn't say Alien Base +4 nukes, it just says Human base + 4 dna labs.


LOL, you're absolutely right. i must have copy pasted the same text and forgot to change it.
i'll change it now :oops:
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:32 am

V7.
fixed the objective mistake in the legend
made new connections and moved around some terits.


i need feedback on the following:
1. terits and connections
2. tech names
3. should i leave the autodeployed bonuses or make them in-hand?


Click image to enlarge.
image
Last edited by DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby mr. CD on Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:03 am

DiM wrote:V7.
fixed the objective mistake in the legend
made new connections and moved around some terits.


i need feedback on the following:
1. terits and connections
2. tech names
3. should i leave the autodeployed bonuses or make them in-hand?


Click image to enlarge.
image


Put a space between any and alien in the left legend
A few numbers are somewhat misplaced now (if you didn't notice yet)
Keep the auto-deploybonuses imo.
Maybe swap A5-6 and PA-1 and connect NP-4 to PA-1 too then? Seems a bit crowded over there now and starting with a base with just one way out makes you easy to isolate.
Will give the tech names some thought.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:06 am

mr. CD wrote:Put a space between any and alien in the left legend
A few numbers are somewhat misplaced now (if you didn't notice yet)


it should be ok now. i also added more connections on the map. just hit ctrl+F5 and the image will refresh.

mr. CD wrote:Keep the auto-deploybonuses imo.
Maybe swap A5-6 and PA-1 and connect NP-4 to PA-1 too then? Seems a bit crowded over there now and starting with a base with just one way out makes you easy to isolate.
Will give the tech names some thought.


the reason i'm considering removing the autodeploy is that i want to give more freedom especially in the first rounds.
if the bonus is autodeployed then the first attack will come only from the base. but if the bonus is in hand then you could deploy it in a non important terit and attack from there.
as for isolation, remember that each player starts with some non important terits and they can attack from there and open up new possibilities.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [15.Aug.11] - V7 p1&5

Postby Coleman on Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:58 pm

Well, the high level play for these kinds of maps is figuring out how much bonus you need before you just start stacking troops up to eliminate everyone. I think the auto-deploy somewhat limits that if the starting territories are not convenient for attacking from to wipe out the map.

Wow I worded that last part horribly.

To put it another way, from the looks of things it won't matter too much on this map one way or the other in the later rounds, so you might as well give them options. I'd almost like to see the low level tech auto deploy 1, so that players who know how and when to roll/fort can still tech up while stacking. Slowly of course, but I'd hate to see some Major figure out that he doesn't even need to try to tech at all, would take away from the map.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the map though, I could be completely off about that auto deploy 1 idea.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [15.Aug.11] - V7 p1&5

Postby DiM on Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:44 pm

in theory you can win the game without even going to the tech tree. you'd just have to keep your base and take all dna labs or all nuke silos depending on what base you have. but i hardly think anybody is going to let you do that. and if they're stupid enough to let you then you deserve the win.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [15.Aug.11] - V7 p1&5

Postby ManBungalow on Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:41 pm

DiM wrote:in theory you can win the game without even going to the tech tree. you'd just have to keep your base and take all dna labs or all nuke silos depending on what base you have.

From the legend I understand that the only way to take, say, a human base, is to go through alien tech level 3 - through the tech tree, as it were. I'm a little confused, but some clarification of this point would be nice.

At any rate, this all looks very interesting, and I think I've gotten my head around the gameplay now.

I'm guessing the legend at the bottom is supposed to read "can attack HT 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4" instead of "can attack HT 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, 2.4" next to the human base.

Eh, I'll comment here again sometime with a fresh perspective.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby lostatlimbo on Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:21 pm

DiM wrote:on the left/right display you have some techs encased in a box. each box has 2 suchs techs in it with an arrow connecting them. that makes a tech pair that gives +2 troops.


The confusion stems from which two territory names you chose as an example.
Image

HT1.4 and HT2.8 are not connected on the map, so this makes me wonder why you chose those values. (Especially since 2.8 is 1.4 squared).

I think it would be clearer if you simplified your example to an actual pair on the map:
Image

DiM wrote:tech lvl 1 bombards non important terits on the map. those are the very terits that are divided amongst each player at the start of the game.
imagine you're in an assassin game. would you rather go through 10 terits to get you your target's final one, or would you take tech lvl 1 and bombard him wherever he is?


Fair point. I don't play much assassin, so that didn't occur to me. Still, I think allowing them to attack non-important territs makes things more interesting. There are no bonuses for those territs, so they won't be well guarded once gameplay advances, but if you use Tech level 1 as a way to maneuver your armies on the map, the layout will be less of an issue.

As to the terminology, what about something like "evacuation zone" for the non-important territories?

Another idea would be something along the lines of "resupply" or "shipment". You do, after all, still need natural resources to make use of all your technological advancements and because these 'non-important' territories are actually important in how you move on the map, it would be akin to a naval or land blockade when your opponent bombards or attacks them.

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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [13.Aug.11] - V6 p1&4

Postby lostatlimbo on Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:30 pm

DiM wrote:
lostatlimbo wrote:One last thought... I'd consider getting more creative with your tech level names. There's something about all these HT2.5 AT6.4 names that conflict with the very slick, fun, arcade-style graphics you have going on. HT2.3 looks more like a long-haul trucker's CB radio tag than a top-secret technology advancement. When I look at this map, I see Space Invaders in the middle and Algebra on the sides. I want to know what technology I'm building! :)

I'd be happy to help you brainstorm some names. Like advancing from artillery to lasers? EMPs?


i've been told this but i don't know what to say. on one hand i'd love to see some specific names especially if they're good ones. but on the other hand i like the fact that the current names give you a mental image of their location very easily. when you say HT2.3 you immediately know it's the 3rd terit on the 2nd row for tech lvl 2 on the human tech tree.
however if there were distinct tech names that i could shorten to 2 characters and use them like i do now perhaps it would be the same.
for example alien tech lvl 2 could be "Gene Splicing" and i'd have terit names like this: GS-1, GS-2....GS-8


I think your Gene Splicing example is the way to go.

The numbers, while straightforward, just tend to blur together - evident in the legend typos. This is less of a problem with clickable maps, but distinct names would be a lot more fun to look at and give it added character.

I'll brainstorm some names and post them here tonight or tomorrow for your perusal.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us[15.Aug.11]-V7p1&5-DraftSt

Postby mr. CD on Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:22 am

[quote=DiM]imagine you're in an assassin game. would you rather go through 10 terits to get you your target's final one, or would you take tech lvl 1 and bombard him wherever he is?[/quote]
Neither, you'd take his base and have him eliminated. It'd be nice to bombard some people around your lab or silo though.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us[15.Aug.11]-V7p1&5-DraftSt

Postby DiM on Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:45 am

mr. CD wrote:
DiM wrote:imagine you're in an assassin game. would you rather go through 10 terits to get you your target's final one, or would you take tech lvl 1 and bombard him wherever he is?

Neither, you'd take his base and have him eliminated. It'd be nice to bombard some people around your lab or silo though.


to take his base you need to get all the way to tech lvl 3. bases can only be attacked from there.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us[15.Aug.11]-V7p1&5-DraftSt

Postby mr. CD on Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:17 am

DiM wrote:
mr. CD wrote:
DiM wrote:imagine you're in an assassin game. would you rather go through 10 terits to get you your target's final one, or would you take tech lvl 1 and bombard him wherever he is?

Neither, you'd take his base and have him eliminated. It'd be nice to bombard some people around your lab or silo though.


to take his base you need to get all the way to tech lvl 3. bases can only be attacked from there.


I know, but your target's final territory can't be anything but his base.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us[15.Aug.11]-V7p1&5-DraftSt

Postby The Bison King on Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:17 pm

This is what I find confusing, It says bases can ONLY be attacked by HT2.1 ect... but what about the territories on the map that are connected to it.

Also the font, while conducive to the theme, is an incredible chore to read.
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Hi, my name is the Bison King, and I am COMPLETELY aware of DaFont!
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [15.Aug.11] - V7 p1&5

Postby ironsij0287 on Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:22 pm

ManBungalow wrote:I'm guessing the legend at the bottom is supposed to read "can attack HT 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4" instead of "can attack HT 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, 2.4" next to the human base.


I wanted to mention this but saw ManBungalow addressed on the page 5. As of right now the instructions don't appear to list any way to attack Human Tech Level 1.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us[15.Aug.11]-V7p1&5-DraftSt

Postby DiM on Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:23 pm

The Bison King wrote:This is what I find confusing, It says bases can ONLY be attacked by HT2.1 ect... but what about the territories on the map that are connected to it.

Also the font, while conducive to the theme, is an incredible chore to read.



i already mentioned that the red lines on the map are temporary until i find a better solution. one that's more visible. that's when i'll also do the one-way arrows.

as for the font, i believe you're the first to complain.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [15.Aug.11] - V7 p1&5

Postby DiM on Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:24 pm

ironsij0287 wrote:
ManBungalow wrote:I'm guessing the legend at the bottom is supposed to read "can attack HT 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4" instead of "can attack HT 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, 2.4" next to the human base.


I wanted to mention this but saw ManBungalow addressed on the page 5. As of right now the instructions don't appear to list any way to attack Human Tech Level 1.



sorry i missed this. will correct asap.
fixed in the first post.

still no stamp/movement? :roll:

edit// apparently not. it seems my numerous updates and the interest so far aren't worthy of a stamp.
in this case i see no point in continuing this map if after all this work it's not even considered a draft.
so i would like this to be binned/boxed/vacationed or whatever.
Last edited by DiM on Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us [15.Aug.11] - V7 p1&5

Postby ironsij0287 on Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:42 pm

DiM wrote:still no stamp/movement? :roll:


How about a sticky?

I agree with Bison King on the font. It's readable but I feel like it takes an extra second to decipher whereas something a little clearer may help, especially with a map as complex as this one is turning out to be.

Also your Supersize Application is being reviewed.

Overall I like this theme, and look forward to see how this will develop.
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Re: All Your Base Are Belong To Us[17.Aug.11]-V7p1&5-DraftSt

Postby DiM on Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:26 pm

wow a sticky. that's great. i'm deeply honoured.

how about these facts:

1. the map looks better than some quenched maps so it clearly meets the crude draft standard required for a draft stamp
2. the map has had plenty of updates. much more than the 2 required from new map makers
3. the map has more interest than some maps that already are in the main foundry.

oh yeah, but i have a sticky. great.

and you say my supersize application is being reviewed. wow what's there to review? it's either approved or it's not. i mentioned from the start of the topic i will need a supersize map and that was 7 days ago. if that doesn't count, i was also the first one to use the supersize thread and make a request which was more than 4 days ago. i find it hard to understand how 4 days aren't enough to make a decision.

so please unsticky this and box/bin/vacation it.
i'm tired of seeing so much crap and indifference in this foundry, especially from persons that should set an example.
and i kept wondering why the quality of maps has gone down the drain...
pff...
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