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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 3.

Postby Gillipig on Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:27 am

koontz1973 wrote:Gillipig, you have made you feelings known towards this map, loud and clear. :(

Don't take it personal koontz. I try to be honest, when I say I like something I really do like it and I have to let you know when I don't like something. Especially when I like some parts of of the map. I actually only want to help.
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 3.

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:18 am

I know Gillipig, just been a bad day. Buggered up the Falklands map which did not put me in a good mood, then RL popped its ugly head up.

You know what I am like, always happy to try and get in the ideas of the community but this one is a little more personal.

With the larger board and the bonuses, I am more than happy to produce the images as long as everyone is happy to allow this to go through without till Beta stage. Then, as I said, if needed, it will all be done so n rush jobs.

As for the larger board, I really like the idea so if this one works, a second one may come around but with a different graphical style. Been playing around with the idea of a map where you can only attack 3 territs away. Thus making it even harder to get to the man you want.
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 3.

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:54 pm

As promised, here are the versions with the bonuses added to the map. Top image is what I would like but the other two are the sequence of maps that would go in if the main map proves to be faulty. No changes have been made to the map apart from adding the bonuses.
Main map.
Image
Second version.
Image
This has the column bonus. Hold all territs in a column to claim.
Third version.
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This one has dots on to show where the bonuses are. This is my least favourite one as the dots spoil the board image. But as a map that would have the bonuses, it is better than version 2.
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 1 & 5.

Postby thehippo8 on Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:39 pm

If you were doing the bonus route than I like the dots and utilisation of the chess concept of the importance of the centre. Still not convinced it is necessary but it certainly adds another element. I will think for a bit before voting.
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 1 & 5.

Postby DiM on Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:47 pm

1. no bonuses - in my opinion will lead to boring games predisposed to stalemates, especially in 1v1.
2. column bonus - virtually impossible to hold so not a good idea
3. dot bonuses - while i'm not perfectly satisfied with this either, i do think it is a great leap forward especially because of the placement in the center of the map. this way in 1v1 people will have an incentive to attack instead of sitting back stacking and waiting for the other to break the neutrals.
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 1 & 5. Bonus Poll.

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:00 pm

This is why I hate polls. A week has passed in trying to give the community a choice and only 2 votes. :( Not voted myself so I could break a tie. ;) Come on guys, get your choice in.
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 1 & 5. Bonus Poll.

Postby isaiah40 on Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:05 pm

I think the dot idea is the way to go. Instead of dots you could outline each square with the colors - stay away from the yellow as it is hard to see in the legend.
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 1 & 5. Bonus Poll.

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:11 pm

isaiah40 wrote:I think the dot idea is the way to go. Instead of dots you could outline each square with the colors - stay away from the yellow as it is hard to see in the legend.


Another vote, wow. :lol: And just think, my mum always told me not to complain. The dots where there to illustrate the bonuses, but a outline might be better. If that is the way to go, then a great suggestion.
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 1 & 5. Bonus Poll.

Postby isaiah40 on Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:13 pm

Nah it's just a tad bit slow in the foundry right now.
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 1 & 5. Bonus Poll.

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:15 pm

Everyone is off looking for differences in Italy right now.
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 1 & 5. Bonus Poll.

Postby Gillipig on Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:44 pm

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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 1 & 5. Bonus Poll.

Postby danfrank on Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:14 pm

this map is great for its originality.. i love chess and cant wait to see this thing get beta.. keep up the goodwork koontz :P
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 1 & 5. Bonus Poll.

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:57 pm

danfrank wrote:this map is great for its originality.. i love chess and cant wait to see this thing get beta.. keep up the goodwork koontz :P

Thanks dan, only a few more days to get in your vote for spoils or not. :?
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 1 & 5. Bonus Poll.

Postby danfrank on Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:58 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
danfrank wrote:this map is great for its originality.. i love chess and cant wait to see this thing get beta.. keep up the goodwork koontz :P

Thanks dan, only a few more days to get in your vote for spoils or not. :?



i voted .. i chose option 3 ... :P
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 1 & 5. Bonus Poll.

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:01 pm

After 3 weeks off poll and 16 votes cast, the time has come for a decision to be made.

8 without bonus. =D>
8 with normal continent bonuses. ;)
0 votes for the column bonuses. :(

As the map maker, I am going to break the tie and go with my original idea of no bonuses. I will though produce the two different maps incase when we get to beta, it proves faulty.

Now that that is sorted, lets get on with this one.

Anything else before a GP stamp mods?
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 1 & 5. What's next?

Postby Victor Sullivan on Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:31 pm

One thing you could consider is adjusting the territory bonus to +1 per 2, to help promote venturing into neutral territory.

-Sully
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 1 & 5. What's next?

Postby natty dread on Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:59 pm

One question. Are you going to introduce any bonuses on the map?

As the gameplay stands currently (looking at the version on 1st page) the gameplay combines some of the worst design elements of gameplay: symmetry, totally open gameplay and lack of bonuses. You could maybe get away with 1 or 2, with compensating factors, but all 3... I don't think it's going to work.
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 1 & 5. What's next?

Postby thehippo8 on Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:15 pm

natty_dread wrote:One question. Are you going to introduce any bonuses on the map?

As the gameplay stands currently (looking at the version on 1st page) the gameplay combines some of the worst design elements of gameplay: symmetry, totally open gameplay and lack of bonuses. You could maybe get away with 1 or 2, with compensating factors, but all 3... I don't think it's going to work.


What do you mean by symmetry? After the first two or three moves symmetry will be gone.
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 1 & 5. What's next?

Postby Victor Sullivan on Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:17 pm

thehippo8 wrote:
natty_dread wrote:One question. Are you going to introduce any bonuses on the map?

As the gameplay stands currently (looking at the version on 1st page) the gameplay combines some of the worst design elements of gameplay: symmetry, totally open gameplay and lack of bonuses. You could maybe get away with 1 or 2, with compensating factors, but all 3... I don't think it's going to work.


What do you mean by symmetry? After the first two or three moves symmetry will be gone.

Not always. But structurally, it's all symmetrical: the board itself, the movement between territories is all the same, etc.

-Sully
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 1 & 5. What's next?

Postby thehippo8 on Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:59 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:
thehippo8 wrote:
natty_dread wrote:One question. Are you going to introduce any bonuses on the map?

As the gameplay stands currently (looking at the version on 1st page) the gameplay combines some of the worst design elements of gameplay: symmetry, totally open gameplay and lack of bonuses. You could maybe get away with 1 or 2, with compensating factors, but all 3... I don't think it's going to work.


What do you mean by symmetry? After the first two or three moves symmetry will be gone.

Not always. But structurally, it's all symmetrical: the board itself, the movement between territories is all the same, etc.

-Sully


Sounds logical ... hence the need for option 3!
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 1 & 5. What's next?

Postby Victor Sullivan on Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:46 pm

thehippo8 wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:
thehippo8 wrote:
natty_dread wrote:One question. Are you going to introduce any bonuses on the map?

As the gameplay stands currently (looking at the version on 1st page) the gameplay combines some of the worst design elements of gameplay: symmetry, totally open gameplay and lack of bonuses. You could maybe get away with 1 or 2, with compensating factors, but all 3... I don't think it's going to work.


What do you mean by symmetry? After the first two or three moves symmetry will be gone.

Not always. But structurally, it's all symmetrical: the board itself, the movement between territories is all the same, etc.

-Sully


Sounds logical ... hence the need for option 3!

...or something similar.

-Sully
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 1 & 5. What's next?

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:35 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:One thing you could consider is adjusting the territory bonus to +1 per 2, to help promote venturing into neutral territory.

-Sully

The problem with this type though is you will get players shooting forward to grab as much as they can. If you consider that every piece you have can be moved, you can grab an additional 16 squares (at least) giving a second round drop of an extra 8. Who ever goes first would win the game in round 2. Even with a bonus structure in place, you could never come back from that.
natty_dread wrote:One question. Are you going to introduce any bonuses on the map?

No, I ran a poll over the bonuses for 3 weeks. No bonuses.
As the gameplay stands currently (looking at the version on 1st page) the gameplay combines some of the worst design elements of gameplay: symmetry, totally open gameplay and lack of bonuses. You could maybe get away with 1 or 2, with compensating factors, but all 3... I don't think it's going to work.

Yes, the board is symentrical, I cannot get away from that as it is a copy of a chess board.
Totally open, I disagree. Try going from A4 to A5. It takes 3 moves to move one square. But, yes, it is very open.
The bonuses have been discussed. There was a poll, and everyone had a chance to come into the thread and vote for there option. I put into the thread title "Bonus Poll" so this question is now resolved.
thehippo wrote:What do you mean by symmetry? After the first two or three moves symmetry will be gone.

The board is a grid of 8 by 8. It is symmetrical.

Nothing posted for two weeks apart from a few votes. Then all of a sudden, people come in and say are you going to do bonuses :? There has been a poll, it was open for 3 week, you could of voted to have bonuses. As the bonus poll was a tie, I have stated, if anyone had bothered to read my last post

Here is my last post for you to read again. :-s
ME wrote:After 3 weeks off poll and 16 votes cast, the time has come for a decision to be made.

8 without bonus. =D>
8 with normal continent bonuses. ;)
0 votes for the column bonuses. :(

As the map maker, I am going to break the tie and go with my original idea of no bonuses. I will though produce the two different maps incase when we get to beta, it proves faulty.

Now that that is sorted, lets get on with this one.

Anything else before a GP stamp mods?
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 1 & 5. What's next?

Postby thehippo8 on Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:37 am

koontz1973 wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:One thing you could consider is adjusting the territory bonus to +1 per 2, to help promote venturing into neutral territory.

-Sully

The problem with this type though is you will get players shooting forward to grab as much as they can. If you consider that every piece you have can be moved, you can grab an additional 16 squares (at least) giving a second round drop of an extra 8. Who ever goes first would win the game in round 2. Even with a bonus structure in place, you could never come back from that.
natty_dread wrote:One question. Are you going to introduce any bonuses on the map?

No, I ran a poll over the bonuses for 3 weeks. No bonuses.
As the gameplay stands currently (looking at the version on 1st page) the gameplay combines some of the worst design elements of gameplay: symmetry, totally open gameplay and lack of bonuses. You could maybe get away with 1 or 2, with compensating factors, but all 3... I don't think it's going to work.

Yes, the board is symentrical, I cannot get away from that as it is a copy of a chess board.
Totally open, I disagree. Try going from A4 to A5. It takes 3 moves to move one square. But, yes, it is very open.
The bonuses have been discussed. There was a poll, and everyone had a chance to come into the thread and vote for there option. I put into the thread title "Bonus Poll" so this question is now resolved.
thehippo wrote:What do you mean by symmetry? After the first two or three moves symmetry will be gone.

The board is a grid of 8 by 8. It is symmetrical.

Nothing posted for two weeks apart from a few votes. Then all of a sudden, people come in and say are you going to do bonuses :? There has been a poll, it was open for 3 week, you could of voted to have bonuses. As the bonus poll was a tie, I have stated, if anyone had bothered to read my last post

Here is my last post for you to read again. :-s
ME wrote:After 3 weeks off poll and 16 votes cast, the time has come for a decision to be made.

8 without bonus. =D>
8 with normal continent bonuses. ;)
0 votes for the column bonuses. :(

As the map maker, I am going to break the tie and go with my original idea of no bonuses. I will though produce the two different maps incase when we get to beta, it proves faulty.

Now that that is sorted, lets get on with this one.

Anything else before a GP stamp mods?
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And being a man of simplicity ... let's go with your idea of no bonuses .. no area ... just skill and cunning ... it's a tie and you are the map maker ... let's go to beta with option 1 ... if it doesn't work out then we can look at option three. BIG THUMBS UP!!
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Re: KNIGHTS [15/10] Version 5 Page 1 & 5. What's next?

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:52 am

So, now that the issue of bonuses is sorted, here are the two images that will go forward to the next stage of development.

Version 1, this has the no bonus areas which is the one that will go forward into beta first. Straight forward gameplay. Each player in any game size receives 5 troops only every round.
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Version 2, this one has the continent bonuses attached. The only other difference between the two versions is the number of troops given each round. In this one it will be 3, as there is the option of bonuses. This will keep the troop counts down. I have played around with the idea of different coloured squares, lines and other colours for the distinguishing marks of the bonuses but the dot idea is the one that keeps the look of the map the best.
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And finally, a version for Christmas :D
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Re: KNIGHTS [4/11] Version 6 Page 1 & 6. What's next?

Postby natty dread on Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:41 am

koontz1973 wrote:No, I ran a poll over the bonuses for 3 weeks. No bonuses.


Come on. Polls are meaningless in the foundry in the first place. You got 16 votes in your poll, and only 8 of the voters voted "no bonuses". You're basically just using this poll to justify your own view.

I'm not trying to be mean here, it's just that I learned pretty early on in the foundry not to make polls... in fact the only type of poll that has any use in map threads is "should this map be made", and even that should be reserved for situations where you're unsure if your map has enough support.

koontz1973 wrote:Yes, the board is symentrical, I cannot get away from that as it is a copy of a chess board.
Totally open, I disagree. Try going from A4 to A5. It takes 3 moves to move one square. But, yes, it is very open.
The bonuses have been discussed. There was a poll, and everyone had a chance to come into the thread and vote for there option. I put into the thread title "Bonus Poll" so this question is now resolved.


Yeah, is there a reason it has to be shaped like a chess board? You could have a larger grid with impassable squares. Think outside the box.

The question for bonuses is far from "resolved", everything in the map is open to discussion & debate as long as the map isn't quenched.

And yes, the map is open. Sure, you have that knight rule, but it's still totally open, there's too many routes in all of the squares to attack each other.

Let me say this: the map idea is novel, and with proper development, you could make an interesting map out of this. But your current approach is too simplistic and dogmatic. The gameplay needs a lot of work, but you could take the idea and make it work if you don't close your mind to suggestions.

Here's some homework for you: play some games on circus maximus and chinese checkers. See the flaws in those maps and try to figure out how to avoid the same flaws on this map.
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