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Re: KNIGHTS [4/11] Version 6 Page 1 & 6. What's next?

Postby natty dread on Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:32 pm

Yeah... designing gameplay is not an art as such. It's not a "there's only right answers" kind of deal. There are such things as BAD gameplay, things that objectively SUCK.

It's tough, I know. But such is the reality. Circus Maximus is objectively a bad map, no matter if there are people who like it and play it lots.

You're saying "I want to do this map because it'll be different", but just because something is "different" does not make it GOOD.

koontz1973 wrote:How do you attack Berlin if all your troops are in London? It is not so simple to work out. That is the big selling point for the 2 player games.


Oh please. You can get to pretty much any nearby square with 2, 3 moves, even with these knight rules of yours. It's fairly simple.

koontz1973 wrote:If you read the thread as a whole, there is a majority of views saying leave it simple without the bonuses.


I don't see that. I see mostly people who seldom visit the foundry, seeing something novel and supporting it... however, what I see is DiM:s points pretty much unaddressed, oh and this post of yours:

OK, DiM, I know you have your doubts, but so far you are the only dissenter. Because of that, I am going to continue with it. If it gets all the way to beta and plays badly like you expect, I will remove it and have it binned as an experiment that did not work.


Well, now you have two. Also, beta-testing is not meant for experiments like that. You're supposed to have a ready map for beta, beta-testing is merely a failsafe that is supposed to catch any hidden flaws that couldn't be detected in the development phase.

Also, even the people who really like the idea of the map are saying you should have bonuses:

Gillipig wrote:Haha like the idea. Reminds me of Circus Maximum in some way, just more complicated. We often see maps with complicated bonuses but awkward attack routes isn't as common. But no bonuses? Maybe I'm wrong but I think you should reconsider that.


isaiah40 wrote:I think the dot idea is the way to go. Instead of dots you could outline each square with the colors - stay away from the yellow as it is hard to see in the legend.


And Dim has been saying pretty much the same things as me about this map, and he has lots of experience in gameplay design.
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Re: KNIGHTS [4/11] Version 6 Page 1 & 6. What's next?

Postby thehippo8 on Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:26 pm

So why not go with option 3 then and if THAT doesn't work out in beta then think about getting rid of the dots.
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Re: KNIGHTS [4/11] Version 6 Page 1 & 6. What's next?

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:19 am

natty, all I have done is defend my point of view. No matter what I say, you will say the opposite. If I say it is up, you will say it is down, if I say left, you say right. We will never find a common ground as out points are so far apart.

DiM is a good mapmaker but he is not the be all of maps. Like you, he came in and had an opinion about the map and the bonuses. Like you, he was very vocal about it.
Gillipig has never posted good in any of my map thread, so why should this one be any different. But even he came round and voted.

Conquer Club Mapmaker Handbook wrote:Gameplay Advice: Mapmakers are strongly encouraged to scrutinize every bonus or rule they have in place, and ask themselves: "Does this enhance the theme or support my goal for the map?" (referring to the theme & goal that they presumably developed in the Drafting Room). If the rule or bonus isn't essential to the map's goal/theme, then it almost certainly should be axed.

gimil wrote:Personally, I don't think the idea is totally without merit. It is taking a very specific route and koontz know what he wants from the map. Talking only the knights rules as the way to move around the board is adding something of interest.

I would air more on the side of simplistic, than boring or symmetrical. That said, I don't think it will be a hit. But at the very least it will have some interest. At least I think there will be more interest in this than any other chess variant the foundry has seen in its lifetime.

In reality I think I am on the fence for this map, leaning slightly on the side of it could work, rather than it couldn't.

Quoting isaiah out of context there does not help. He voted in the poll and expressed his opinion in the thread.
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isaiah40 wrote:I think the dot idea is the way to go. Instead of dots you could outline each square with the colors - stay away from the yellow as it is hard to see in the legend.

Another vote, wow. :lol: And just think, my mum always told me not to complain. The dots where there to illustrate the bonuses, but a outline might be better. If that is the way to go, then a great suggestion.


natty, I am more than happy to go down the bonus route, but so far, only you and DiM have been vocal about it. I have given logical rebuttals to both of you on why I do not want to go down that route, and what would happen if.......

Gameplay design on maps is never going to be easy till beta. Look at the work you had to put into Antarctica and Three Kingdoms over game play while in beta. That is after someone else designed it for you and spent time in the gameplay workshop. I had to do some on Rorke's Drift. That is what beta is for, to test out the maps and gameplay. We all have an idea on how our maps will play, we all want to see them being played on, but till beta no one can know how it will play or what is faulty.
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Re: KNIGHTS [4/11] Version 6 Page 1 & 6. What's next?

Postby natty dread on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:37 am

Welp, I tried. You just dismiss every criticism with "ok, that's your opinion, we can disagree on that". I hope someone else manages to convince you... I'm obviously not getting through here.
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Re: KNIGHTS [4/11] Version 6 Page 1 & 6. What's next?

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:21 am

natty_dread wrote:Welp, I tried. You just dismiss every criticism with "ok, that's your opinion, we can disagree on that". I hope someone else manages to convince you... I'm obviously not getting through here.

No natty, you have an opinion and I respect that, it just seems a shame that neither of us could convince the other. I have not just said OK and dismissed your arguments out of hand, I had a long look at this map before producing the first image. How would it work or even if it would work. I spent a long time trying to describe the gameplay to you and DiM the best way I could. We have had a decent discussion on the matter and right now I feel we need to get a mods point of view into the debate as that is probably the only way to progress. If isaiah40 who is now looking after gameplay (I think) comes and says that the bonus option is the only way for this map to go forward, then I will be upset for the lack of faith but will gladly take into consideration there reasons and move forward.

The column bonus is dead. DiM said it would not work and no one voted for it so no need to go down that route. Right now the two images are on the first page for the GP mods to look at. I will use there judgement in how to go forward. I will PM isaiah40 and ask him to have a read.
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Re: KNIGHTS [4/11] Version 6 Page 1 & 6. What's next?

Postby gimil on Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:07 am

What a heated debate I have come across! Let me chip in my 2p's worth.

Koontz wants to keep his map simplistically beautiful. and as far as ideas go, this gimmick based map is definetly got more potential than the average gimmick map. I kind of like the idea as koontz desires it to be, but I am not sure myself how it would play. Escalating games may actually be rather fun since you would play them similar to classic style maps, but with an unusual though process when going for the kill. But flat rate and no cards games may be a bit of a drag.

Natty makes a fair concern about closing the map, giving a little more to fight over. but will that just make this another boring gimmick map? Taking an arbitory subject (like the human body or a guitar [to name a few bad ideas from other the years]) and trying to squeeze a map into it.

I think the reality of this discussion is that either of you are wrong, but rather have different ideas of how you would like the map to progress. Either way this map is not going to be a top played map, it is going to be a niche map played (and loved) by a small pocket of people. I would say that nattys suggestions and opinions are not incorrect, but if implemented would take the map in a different direction which may not be what koontz is looking for.

Remember there is a line between addressing concerns based to improve flaws in a map, and making a map in the way a map maker WANTS to make it. Know what I mean?
What do you know about map making, bitch?

natty_dread wrote:I was wrong


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Re: KNIGHTS [4/11] Version 6 Page 1 & 6. What's next?

Postby deantursx on Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:03 pm

Koontz, this map is going to be amazing! People are right in that large multi-player games with flat rate or no spoils are going 2 suck on it...but thats why I won't be joining those games on it. But 1v1, doubles, trips, quads, and any multi-player escalating games on this map will be soooooooo awesome. I can't wait!

Also, assassin on here will be so cool.
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Re: KNIGHTS [4/11] Version 6 Page 1 & 6. What's next?

Postby isaiah40 on Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:26 pm

As gimil said, this turned into a heated debate - reminds me of some political debates. Reading through everything, I have to agree with both koontz and natty. Both bring up valid points, but in the end it is the mapmakers decision on what direction he/she wants to go as long as the gameplay is balanced for the most part. So koontz, pick which one you want to go with, and we'll wait for beta to see how it plays.
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Re: KNIGHTS [4/11] Version 6 Page 1 & 6. What's next?

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:45 pm

I would like to continue with my idea (big surprise there) but is there a way to get both done so both sets of parties have there choice of map.

I know that 2 maps would not make a map pack, but why not work on both simultaneously? Could that be done and would it be allowed to be done at this stage?

EDIT: I forgot to say thanks to isaiah and gimil for popping there heads in. So thanks guys.
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Re: KNIGHTS [4/11] Version 6 Page 1 & 6. What's next?

Postby natty dread on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:01 pm

isaiah40 wrote:in the end it is the mapmakers decision on what direction he/she wants to go as long as the gameplay is balanced for the most part.


Yeah but that was my point, that the gameplay won't be balanced!!!
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Re: KNIGHTS [4/11] Version 6 Page 1 & 6. What's next?

Postby thehippo8 on Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:02 pm

natty_dread wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:in the end it is the mapmakers decision on what direction he/she wants to go as long as the gameplay is balanced for the most part.


Yeah but that was my point, that the gameplay won't be balanced!!!


LOL ... you are funny ... one moment you complain that there is too much symmentry (balance) so you want bonuses etc ... yet now you complain that the game is not balanced ... if this was Mafia Wars there would be a big FOS!
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Re: KNIGHTS [4/11] Version 6 Page 1 & 6. What's next?

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:12 pm

thehippo8 wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:in the end it is the mapmakers decision on what direction he/she wants to go as long as the gameplay is balanced for the most part.


Yeah but that was my point, that the gameplay won't be balanced!!!


LOL ... you are funny ... one moment you complain that there is too much symmentry (balance) so you want bonuses etc ... yet now you complain that the game is not balanced ... if this was Mafia Wars there would be a big FOS!

Natty's argument is coherent, actually. He means that too much symmetry does not make a well-balanced map. I think I have to agree with natty on this one. You need something, I think, whether it be a bonus or whatever. As gimil mentioned, anything other than escalating is going to be a real drag.

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Re: KNIGHTS [4/11] Version 6 Page 1 & 6. What's next?

Postby natty dread on Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:17 pm

thehippo8 wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:in the end it is the mapmakers decision on what direction he/she wants to go as long as the gameplay is balanced for the most part.


Yeah but that was my point, that the gameplay won't be balanced!!!


LOL ... you are funny ... one moment you complain that there is too much symmentry (balance) so you want bonuses etc ... yet now you complain that the game is not balanced ... if this was Mafia Wars there would be a big FOS!


you don't even know what you're talking about
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Re: KNIGHTS [4/11] Version 6 Page 1 & 6. What's next?

Postby thehippo8 on Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:30 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:
thehippo8 wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:in the end it is the mapmakers decision on what direction he/she wants to go as long as the gameplay is balanced for the most part.


Yeah but that was my point, that the gameplay won't be balanced!!!


LOL ... you are funny ... one moment you complain that there is too much symmentry (balance) so you want bonuses etc ... yet now you complain that the game is not balanced ... if this was Mafia Wars there would be a big FOS!

Natty's argument is coherent, actually. He means that too much symmetry does not make a well-balanced map. I think I have to agree with natty on this one. You need something, I think, whether it be a bonus or whatever. As gimil mentioned, anything other than escalating is going to be a real drag.

-Sully


Ahhh, and the prnny drops! My misunderstanding of what Natty was saying. So, let's go with option 3 ... actually Koontz I don't see the bonus region idea as materially taking away anything from your concept ... it adds another lawyer of complexity and ... like I said earlier ... adds to the chessieness of the map by highlighting the importance of the central squares. Big breath ... go with it!
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Re: KNIGHTS [4/11] Version 6 Page 1 & 6. What's next?

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:00 am

It is obvious that the bonus version has the most vocal supporters. natty's argument does have merrit, same as DiMs. I see no reason why the original version would not work as no one has given me any good reason why it would not work. The issue has been resolved by the mods so we can all get on and make a map.
show: version 7

Now lets move on and get this one into beta faster than a Concorde.
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Re: KNIGHTS [6/11] Version 7 Page 1 & 7. Bonus values

Postby natty dread on Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:56 am

You want to do it fast or you want to do it right? ;)

Are the bonuses for holding all of those coloured dots? Meaning you get +2 for holding 4 pink dots or 4 red dots, etc. ? If so they could stand to be a bit larger.
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Re: KNIGHTS [6/11] Version 7 Page 1 & 7. Bonus values

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:59 am

natty_dread wrote:You want to do it fast or you want to do it right? ;)

Are the bonuses for holding all of those coloured dots? Meaning you get +2 for holding 4 pink dots or 4 red dots, etc. ? If so they could stand to be a bit larger.

I want to do it right.
I tried the larger dots, coloured squares and lines going around the zones, and they all detract from the look. I will get some images up today for you all to see what I mean,
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Re: KNIGHTS [6/11] Version 7 Page 1 & 7. Bonus values

Postby charmir on Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:05 am

version 1 with no bonuses.
Sorry for the delay buddy.
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Re: KNIGHTS [6/11] Version 7 Page 1 & 7. Bonus values

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:50 am

charmir wrote:version 1 with no bonuses.
Sorry for the delay buddy.
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To late now, bonuses are the order of the day.
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Re: KNIGHTS [6/11] Version 7 Page 1 & 7. Bonus values

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:53 am

Here are the two versions. One with the larger dots and one with the squares. Both have some benefits but the square one will cause confusion as it is not clear if you need to get hold of the middle 4 for the bonuses. To put a second line in looks bad so will not be doing it. Take my word on it.
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Re: KNIGHTS [6/11] Version 7 Page 1 & 7. Bonus values

Postby thehippo8 on Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:09 am

Koontz ... here's another couple of ideas ... I did a copy and paste into Inkscape...
'
Image

Image

Sing out if you want me to delete these Koontz ... thought you might like to see these ideas if you hadn't thought of them!!
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Re: KNIGHTS [6/11] Version 7 Page 1 & 7. Bonus values

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:28 am

Ideas I had had and rejected for one reason only. The colours change over the different woods which would cause confusion. The only way around that would be to do the squares as a colour without the wood underneath. That is a step too far away from the concept.

The larger dots (only 2 pixels larger) look to large IMO and detract from the board.
The squares look ugly and will cause confusion over the 4 and 5 bonus zones.
The coloured squares as shown by hippo have many different problems as the colours change over the different woods. To remove the wood and have coloured squares instead removes the whole look of the board. But I will have another look at it today.
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Re: KNIGHTS [6/11] Version 7 Page 1 & 7. Bonus values

Postby thehippo8 on Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:32 am

koontz1973 wrote:Ideas I had had and rejected for one reason only. The colours change over the different woods which would cause confusion. The only way around that would be to do the squares as a colour without the wood underneath. That is a step too far away from the concept.

The larger dots (only 2 pixels larger) look to large IMO and detract from the board.
The squares look ugly and will cause confusion over the 4 and 5 bonus zones.
The coloured squares as shown by hippo have many different problems as the colours change over the different woods. To remove the wood and have coloured squares instead removes the whole look of the board. But I will have another look at it today.


These were my thoughts too ...
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Re: KNIGHTS [6/11] Version 7 Page 1 & 7. Bonus values

Postby natty dread on Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:13 am

koontz1973 wrote:
natty_dread wrote:You want to do it fast or you want to do it right? ;)

Are the bonuses for holding all of those coloured dots? Meaning you get +2 for holding 4 pink dots or 4 red dots, etc. ? If so they could stand to be a bit larger.

I want to do it right.
I tried the larger dots, coloured squares and lines going around the zones, and they all detract from the look. I will get some images up today for you all to see what I mean,


#-o

...the bonuses. The bonuses should be larger. +2 for holding 4 territories with 4 borders is a bit inadequate.
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Re: KNIGHTS [6/11] Version 7 Page 1 & 7. Bonus values

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:26 am

natty_dread wrote:...the bonuses. The bonuses should be larger. +2 for holding 4 territories with 4 borders is a bit inadequate.


That might be true natty, but I really do not want to get players into the thinking of bonuses in the first place. The numbers if done would be very high. I want to keep the players away from the bonus zone mind set and having large numbers would shorten games dramatically.

With your comment on the 2 being low, it is for the above reason, but no other map has a bonus zone of 4 territs that can be attacked by 20 different territs. The centre zone has the same 4 territs but can be attacked by 32. The large blue zone can be attacked by all but 4 territs. By giving any of these areas large / normal numbers you get a bonus that can finish of a game after it is held for one turn. That is not what I want. I went down the bonus route natty against my better judgement but these numbers have to be kept small. Very small.
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