Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [Quenched]

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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [22 Nov] V8 Probabilities

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:24 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:I apologize for my lack of activity around these parts :oops:

Anywho, I'm afraid I disagree with your proposal here:
cairnswk wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:I think that 19 troops between the two territories would be good as this will prevent any chance of anyone getting wiped out first turn. Actually, if some one had really lucky dice - like I did once on Classic, taking 30 troops with my lowly 17 and breaking 2 continents in the process - they could do it, but the probabilities of that happening that often are like getting struck by lightening.


OK, we'll start off with 19 trooops between the two territories, but let's go for 12 on the front territory and 7 one the tribe.
does anyone agree with that?

You are giving the first player far too much power. A 12 on the front territory plus a deploy could do tons of damage in one turn, potentially knocking the second player (in a 1v1 situation) down multiple territories, reducing said player's territory bonus down by at least 1, though likely more - 2 or even 3. Granted, Player 1 opens up his tribe, but it has a solid 7 on it, and if he's smart he'd wipe out as many regions of yours around his tribe as possible, then fort troops back to guard. With a smaller amount for the territory connecting to the tribe, it creates a delay in accessing the extra troops - sufficient time for Player 2 to collect his bonus and decide what he wants to do before Player 1 strikes.

-Sully

Don't apologise for debating this Sully, i'm pleased your throwing in different aspects.
I see what you're saying.
Is there any way then that the maximum bonus/deployment received can be limited by using the xml?
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [22 Nov] V8 Probabilities

Postby Victor Sullivan on Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:28 pm

cairnswk wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:I apologize for my lack of activity around these parts :oops:

Anywho, I'm afraid I disagree with your proposal here:
cairnswk wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:I think that 19 troops between the two territories would be good as this will prevent any chance of anyone getting wiped out first turn. Actually, if some one had really lucky dice - like I did once on Classic, taking 30 troops with my lowly 17 and breaking 2 continents in the process - they could do it, but the probabilities of that happening that often are like getting struck by lightening.


OK, we'll start off with 19 trooops between the two territories, but let's go for 12 on the front territory and 7 one the tribe.
does anyone agree with that?

You are giving the first player far too much power. A 12 on the front territory plus a deploy could do tons of damage in one turn, potentially knocking the second player (in a 1v1 situation) down multiple territories, reducing said player's territory bonus down by at least 1, though likely more - 2 or even 3. Granted, Player 1 opens up his tribe, but it has a solid 7 on it, and if he's smart he'd wipe out as many regions of yours around his tribe as possible, then fort troops back to guard. With a smaller amount for the territory connecting to the tribe, it creates a delay in accessing the extra troops - sufficient time for Player 2 to collect his bonus and decide what he wants to do before Player 1 strikes.

-Sully

Don't apologise for debating this Sully, i'm pleased your throwing in different aspects.
I see what you're saying.
Is there any way then that the maximum bonus/deployment received can be limited by using the xml?

Yes. I can also edit the number of regions per troop:
Victor Sullivan wrote:Ah! I'm sorry, cairns. The breakdown looks like this:

8 starting positions of 2 territories each (16 total territories) + 3 killer neutrals + 1 neutral + 84 deployable/droppable territories = 104 total territories, as per the first post.

    2 players --> 36 [+12] (no position max); 32 [+10] (max="2"); 30 [+10] (max="1")
    3 players --> 32 [+10] (no position max & max="2"); 30 [+10] (max="1")
    4 players --> 25 [+8] (no position max & max="2"); 23 [+7] (max="1")
    5 players --> 18 [+6]
    6 players --> 16 [+5]
    7 players --> 14 [+4]
    8 players --> 12 [+4]
Hm, doesn't look good... And the starting values would have to be increased fairly substantially. I suggest we change the standard +1 per 3 territory bonus to +1 per 5, so the values will look much more manageable:

    2 players --> 36 [+7] (no position max); 32 [+6] (max="2"); 30 [+6] (max="1")
    3 players --> 32 [+6] (no position max & max="2"); 30 [+6] (max="1")
    4 players --> 25 [+5] (no position max & max="2"); 23 [+4] (max="1")
    5 players --> 18 [+3]
    6 players --> 16 [+3]
    7 players --> 14 [+3]
    8 players --> 12 [+3]
Hm, still not fantastic, but this could be remedied with a neutral:

    2 players --> 35 [+7] (no position max); 31 [+6] (max="2"); 29 [+5] (max="1")
    3 players --> 31 [+6] (no position max & max="2"); 29 [+5] (max="1")
    4 players --> 24 [+4] (no position max & max="2"); 22 [+4] (max="1")
    5 players --> 18 [+3]
    6 players --> 15 [+3]
    7 players --> 13 [+3]
    8 players --> 12 [+3]
Of course, I still need to look into those 3-territory bonuses, which could mess with these values a bit.

-Sully

-Sully
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [22 Nov] V8 Probabilities

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:06 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:I apologize for my lack of activity around these parts :oops:

Anywho, I'm afraid I disagree with your proposal here:
cairnswk wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:I think that 19 troops between the two territories would be good as this will prevent any chance of anyone getting wiped out first turn. Actually, if some one had really lucky dice - like I did once on Classic, taking 30 troops with my lowly 17 and breaking 2 continents in the process - they could do it, but the probabilities of that happening that often are like getting struck by lightening.


OK, we'll start off with 19 trooops between the two territories, but let's go for 12 on the front territory and 7 one the tribe.
does anyone agree with that?

You are giving the first player far too much power. A 12 on the front territory plus a deploy could do tons of damage in one turn, potentially knocking the second player (in a 1v1 situation) down multiple territories, reducing said player's territory bonus down by at least 1, though likely more - 2 or even 3. Granted, Player 1 opens up his tribe, but it has a solid 7 on it, and if he's smart he'd wipe out as many regions of yours around his tribe as possible, then fort troops back to guard. With a smaller amount for the territory connecting to the tribe, it creates a delay in accessing the extra troops - sufficient time for Player 2 to collect his bonus and decide what he wants to do before Player 1 strikes.

-Sully

Don't apologise for debating this Sully, i'm pleased your throwing in different aspects.
I see what you're saying.
Is there any way then that the maximum bonus/deployment received can be limited by using the xml?

Yes. I can also edit the number of regions per troop:
Victor Sullivan wrote:Ah! I'm sorry, cairns. The breakdown looks like this:

8 starting positions of 2 territories each (16 total territories) + 3 killer neutrals + 1 neutral + 84 deployable/droppable territories = 104 total territories, as per the first post.

    2 players --> 36 [+12] (no position max); 32 [+10] (max="2"); 30 [+10] (max="1")
    3 players --> 32 [+10] (no position max & max="2"); 30 [+10] (max="1")
    4 players --> 25 [+8] (no position max & max="2"); 23 [+7] (max="1")
    5 players --> 18 [+6]
    6 players --> 16 [+5]
    7 players --> 14 [+4]
    8 players --> 12 [+4]
Hm, doesn't look good... And the starting values would have to be increased fairly substantially. I suggest we change the standard +1 per 3 territory bonus to +1 per 5, so the values will look much more manageable:

    2 players --> 36 [+7] (no position max); 32 [+6] (max="2"); 30 [+6] (max="1")
    3 players --> 32 [+6] (no position max & max="2"); 30 [+6] (max="1")
    4 players --> 25 [+5] (no position max & max="2"); 23 [+4] (max="1")
    5 players --> 18 [+3]
    6 players --> 16 [+3]
    7 players --> 14 [+3]
    8 players --> 12 [+3]
Hm, still not fantastic, but this could be remedied with a neutral:

    2 players --> 35 [+7] (no position max); 31 [+6] (max="2"); 29 [+5] (max="1")
    3 players --> 31 [+6] (no position max & max="2"); 29 [+5] (max="1")
    4 players --> 24 [+4] (no position max & max="2"); 22 [+4] (max="1")
    5 players --> 18 [+3]
    6 players --> 15 [+3]
    7 players --> 13 [+3]
    8 players --> 12 [+3]
Of course, I still need to look into those 3-territory bonuses, which could mess with these values a bit.

-Sully

-Sully


OK. what is your proposal all up, if I give 10 on tribe and 9 up front.
Max 1 looks good in 2 player.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [22 Nov] V8 Probabilities

Postby iancanton on Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:08 am

Victor Sullivan wrote:Of course, I still need to look into those 3-territory bonuses, which could mess with these values a bit.

my usual bête noire. saraga needs a neutral start, so does saut nambis and probably waigani too. will each start position comprise a 12-stack and a 7-stack, with no other start positions? i just want to make sure.

Victor Sullivan wrote:
cairnswk wrote:OK, we'll start off with 19 trooops between the two territories, but let's go for 12 on the front territory and 7 one the tribe.

You are giving the first player far too much power. A 12 on the front territory plus a deploy could do tons of damage in one turn, potentially knocking the second player (in a 1v1 situation) down multiple territories, reducing said player's territory bonus down by at least 1, though likely more - 2 or even 3.

why not reverse the current 7 and 12 (or victor's suggested 4 and 15), so that the first player starts with 7 (or 4) plus his deployment for attack? this will reduce the first mover advantage somewhat, especially for freestyle (where a big initial stack can be devastating against someone who spends just a few seconds analysing the initial position), but also for sequential games. if someone wants to use his 12 (or 15), then he must fort forward and let someone have a chance at hitting the stack.

ian. :)
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [23 Nov] V8 Probabilities

Postby cairnswk on Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:45 am

Just bumping the map so to see what is going on.
Click image to enlarge.
image
Last edited by cairnswk on Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [22 Nov] V8 Probabilities

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:59 pm

I believe ian meant the reverse, cairns :)

@ian:
iancanton wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:Of course, I still need to look into those 3-territory bonuses, which could mess with these values a bit.

my usual bête noire. saraga needs a neutral start, so does saut nambis and probably waigani too. will each start position comprise a 12-stack and a 7-stack, with no other start positions? i just want to make sure.

As is currently, yes, though I wonder if perhaps they could be used as an alternative from using neutrals? For example, Waigani could be split between Jiwiki, Motu and Iwan.

-Sully
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [22 Nov] V8 Probabilities

Postby isaiah40 on Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:44 pm

I agree, 12 on the tribe and 7 in front.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [22 Nov] V8 Probabilities

Postby cairnswk on Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:34 pm

isaiah40 wrote:I agree, 12 on the tribe and 7 in front.

Mmm. what changed your mind?
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [22 Nov] V8 Probabilities

Postby isaiah40 on Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:30 pm

cairnswk wrote:Mmm. what changed your mind?

This:
iancanton wrote:why not reverse the current 7 and 12 (or victor's suggested 4 and 15), so that the first player starts with 7 (or 4) plus his deployment for attack? this will reduce the first mover advantage somewhat, especially for freestyle (where a big initial stack can be devastating against someone who spends just a few seconds analysing the initial position), but also for sequential games. if someone wants to use his 12 (or 15), then he must fort forward and let someone have a chance at hitting the stack.

ian. :)

This does make more sense.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [22 Nov] V8 Probabilities

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:15 pm

isaiah40 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:Mmm. what changed your mind?

This:
iancanton wrote:why not reverse the current 7 and 12 (or victor's suggested 4 and 15), so that the first player starts with 7 (or 4) plus his deployment for attack? this will reduce the first mover advantage somewhat, especially for freestyle (where a big initial stack can be devastating against someone who spends just a few seconds analysing the initial position), but also for sequential games. if someone wants to use his 12 (or 15), then he must fort forward and let someone have a chance at hitting the stack.

ian. :)

This does make more sense.


O well! i know when i'm beaten... :(
3 agin 1 for 7 upfront and 12 on tribe.
the above map has been adjusted.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [10.1.12] V8/P14 GP finished?

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:59 pm

Looks okay to me! Graphically speaking, I'm not digging the texture :|

-Sully
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [10.1.12] V8/P14 GP finished?

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:42 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:Looks okay to me! Graphically speaking, I'm not digging the texture :|

-Sully

You changed your mind too??
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [10.1.12] V8/P14 GP finished?

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:45 pm

cairnswk wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:Looks okay to me! Graphically speaking, I'm not digging the texture :|

-Sully

You changed your mind too??

I never changed it :?

-Sully
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [10.1.12] V8/P14 GP finished?

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:50 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:Looks okay to me! Graphically speaking, I'm not digging the texture :|

-Sully

You changed your mind too??

I never changed it :?

-Sully

I thought some time back you were pretty happy with everything or at least that's the impression i got.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [10.1.12] V8/P14 GP finished?

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:09 am

cairnswk wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:Looks okay to me! Graphically speaking, I'm not digging the texture :|

-Sully

You changed your mind too??

I never changed it :?

-Sully

I thought some time back you were pretty happy with everything or at least that's the impression i got.

Oh, yes. I merely decided it wasn't worth quibbling over at the time when we had gameplay stuff to discuss.

-Sully
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [10.1.12] V8/P14 GP finished?

Postby cairnswk on Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:31 am

Victor Sullivan wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:Looks okay to me! Graphically speaking, I'm not digging the texture :|

-Sully

You changed your mind too??

I never changed it :?

-Sully

I thought some time back you were pretty happy with everything or at least that's the impression i got.

Oh, yes. I merely decided it wasn't worth quibbling over at the time when we had gameplay stuff to discuss.

-Sully

Oh, OK
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [10.1.12] V8/P14 GP finished?

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:57 pm

Sully, i'll look at the texture later today after returning from town.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [10.1.12] V8/P14 GP finished?

Postby Victor Sullivan on Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:51 pm

cairnswk wrote:Sully, i'll look at the texture later today after returning from town.

Sounds groovy!

-Sully
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [10.1.12] V8/P14 GP finished?

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:51 pm

Are there other gameplay issues that need addressing on this map before i go onto changing graphics?
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [10.1.12] V8/P14 GP finished?

Postby Nola_Lifer on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:36 pm

This has to be the prettiest map on CC. =P~
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [10.1.12] V8/P14 GP finished?

Postby isaiah40 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:45 pm

I've went ahead and stickied this for now. I really don't have any other GP concerns right now, but I'll get Ian to take another look at it.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [23 Nov] V8 Probabilities

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:09 am

Just bumping to next page.
Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [10.1.12] V8/P14 GP finished?

Postby J_Indr on Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:42 am

It might be too late, it might have been discussed...

Have you seriously considered an advantage of some tribes who can get a small early game bonus due to having small +2/+3 continents next to their starting position vs tribes like Jiwiki or Motu who would take ages to get their first bonus on a larger region?
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [10.1.12] V8/P14 GP finished?

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:57 pm

J_Indr wrote:It might be too late, it might have been discussed...

Have you seriously considered an advantage of some tribes who can get a small early game bonus due to having small +2/+3 continents next to their starting position vs tribes like Jiwiki or Motu who would take ages to get their first bonus on a larger region?


No i don't beleived it has been discussed, but i think there is only two tribe that has a +4.
Hulli Tribe - Saraga +2 - saraga next to a utility which can be assaulted from another utility.
Iwan Tribe - Inland Saut +3 - 2 terrs away from a utility.
Motu Tribe - Lapun Bitaun + 4 - can be easily assaulted from several surrounding positions
Jiwiki Tribe - Napa Napa Rot +4 - adjacent to Chimbu Tribe front line at Atlas Steel
Chimbu Tribe - Baruni +3 - adjacent ot Napa Napap Rot Wan
Enga Tribe - Gerehu +3 - next to a utility Uni PNG
Highland Tribe - Waigani +2 - no proximity
Asaro Tribe - Outer Mails +2 - no proximity

3 x +2
3 x +3
2 x +4

What can be done...any suggestions?
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [10.1.12] V8/P14 GP finished?

Postby J_Indr on Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:22 pm

OK, the real issue here is with the amount of regions a player must conquer in order to get his first bonus.

You have:
Huli - 2
Iwan - 3
Motu - 4
Jiwiki - 4
Chimbu - 4
Enga - 3
Highland - 3
Asaro - 3
--> Huli would very probably get their +2 bonus in a second turn and then could damage other players, gaining a massive advantage, while in speedier games Chimbu would probably never achieve their own bonus.

Optimally, these number should all be the same, probably 3 (therefore 4 regions for the whole bonus zone);
so, for example,
Huli - either make a new territory between Saraga and Jacksons OR Saraga and Faiv Mail
Motu - merge Paga and Lapun Biktaun
Jiwiki - merge Napa Napa Rot Fo and Napa Napa Rot Tre
Chimbu - merge Gogodala Viles and Baruni Westim Ples
-> the bonuses then should be changed accordingly.

((Alternatively, I am thinking about more complicated gameplay tweaks - such as giving only a maximum of +1 bonus per a minimum of 2 regions in the bonus area close to the tribe IF the player holds the tribe.
That would also reduce any possible early game advantages/disadvantages for getting a strong bonus zone & being lucky in your first turn. I am fairly confident that XML would allow this, but I think it is rather complicated, so I'd rather try to balance it out by redrawing as I suggested above.))
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