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Re: Classic Cities Jakarta [7/7] Page 17

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:33 am

natty dread wrote:There's simply no reason to keep the current bridges

Yes there is, I like them.
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Re: Classic Cities Jakarta [7/7] Page 17

Postby natty dread on Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:41 am

That's not how this works and you know it.

Sheesh, you're supposed to be a foundry assistant, shouldn't you be setting a better example? You don't just brush away valid criticism by saying "nuh-uh, I like it like this". If some new guy comes to the drafting room with an image drawn with ms-paint, and refuses to learn how to do proper graphics because "he likes it" what are you going to say? "Don't do what I do, do what I say"?
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Re: Classic Cities Jakarta [7/7] Page 17

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:51 am

natty dread wrote:That's not how this works and you know it.

Sheesh, you're supposed to be a foundry assistant, shouldn't you be setting a better example? You don't just brush away valid criticism by saying "nuh-uh, I like it like this". If some new guy comes to the drafting room with an image drawn with ms-paint, and refuses to learn how to do proper graphics because "he likes it" what are you going to say? "Don't do what I do, do what I say"?

No. I would try to guide him in the right direction. The bridges in your opinion look like poo, but what you want is not right in my opinion so until you come up with something more constructive and fitting to the map, these will stay. You should know that, just by saying you do not like something, automatically forces me to change it, this is not how the foundry works. It works by a gathering of opinions, filtering through all of the chaff and then finding the right solution to a problem. It does not work with what you want, you get.

Now, if I go post in any of your map threads and say this does not look right and you can do better, would you go and do better or will you tell me to bugger off? Past experience with you leads me to say that you would do bugger all and even if more than one person suggests the same thing, you will still do nothing about it. Now is that how the foundry should work, or is it just for you. Even with a simple name change that you have been told is offensive, your response is....
natty dread wrote:Yep. As soon as I get around to it...

and when you get told
hatchman wrote:Pretty nice update, but what's with the mountains and glaciers? Those parts look bush league. Like blobs of poop someone said.

you reply...
natty dread wrote:I think they're fine. But you're entitled to your opinion of course.

So I say to you now....

I think they're fine. But you're entitled to your opinion of course.
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Re: Classic Cities Jakarta [7/7] Page 17

Postby natty dread on Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:27 am

koontz1973 wrote:No. I would try to guide him in the right direction.


That's what I'm doing here. I'm guiding you into changing an element of your map that looks like crap. Literally.

koontz1973 wrote:The bridges in your opinion look like poo, but what you want is not right in my opinion


Sigh. It never is... you just keep fighting about it because you're too prideful to take advice from me.

koontz1973 wrote:so until you come up with something more constructive and fitting to the map, these will stay


So now I have to draw your graphics for you?

koontz1973 wrote:You should know that, just by saying you do not like something, automatically forces me to change it, this is not how the foundry works. It works by a gathering of opinions,


Sure, but some opinions carry more weight than others. That's just how it is, the foundry is not a democracy. I've been here a while and I have a bit more experience on graphics. And no, I'm not saying that it means I know everything better than you. Just most things... haha. But really, you should listen to the voice of experience. It's the voice that gives you the uncomfortable truth, that pushes you to try harder. And it's a 100 times more valuable than every random visitor who drops in to your thread telling you how awesome your map is and they want to play it now...

Frankly I can't believe I have to fight with you about this. It should be obvious to you the bridges are inadequate. And I can tell you with those current bridges there's no way in hell this map is going to go to beta, unless the foundry standards have been totally shitcanned. I don't know how can I say it any clearer? They don't work for this map. They don't work for any map. You can't just draw ambiguous blobs of colour and then just say "I like them so they stay". Your bridges look like they were drawn with ms. paint. THEY DON'T LOOK LIKE BRIDGES because they don't look like anything. I'd understand if you were a first time mapmaker and this was the drafting room, but you already have 3 maps in play. You should know better than this.

koontz1973 wrote:Now, if I go post in any of your map threads and say this does not look right and you can do better, would you go and do better


What have my maps got anything to do with this? This is about you and your map. I don't see a huge influx of people flowing into your map thread and pleading you to keep the bridges as they are because they love them. Furthermore, you should know every map project is unique. There's no point in pointing out "you did this and that on this and that map so now I get to do it too". That's not how this works and you should know it.

koontz1973 wrote:Past experience with you leads me to say that you would do bugger all and even if more than one person suggests the same thing, you will still do nothing about it.


Not true, but again, irrelevant. We're talking about your map here. What I supposedly have done on my map threads has nothing to do with your map. Concentrate on your own work when you're in your own map thread. If you want to talk about my maps, post in their respective map threads, and we'll see about it.
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Re: Classic Cities Jakarta [7/7] Page 17

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:14 am

natty dread wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:No. I would try to guide him in the right direction.


That's what I'm doing here. I'm guiding you into changing an element of your map that looks like crap. Literally.

No your not, you are trying to force a change that is not warranted. You are fighting like you always do when someone says no to you. That is all.
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Re: Classic Cities Jakarta [7/7] Page 17

Postby natty dread on Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:57 am

koontz1973 wrote:
natty dread wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:No. I would try to guide him in the right direction.


That's what I'm doing here. I'm guiding you into changing an element of your map that looks like crap. Literally.

No your not, you are trying to force a change that is not warranted. You are fighting like you always do when someone says no to you. That is all.


1 - it's "you're"
2 - the change is warranted.
3 - I'm not fighting at all. I'm just telling you what you need to do to bring the map up to par with the foundry standards. I'm giving your map feedback and letting you know what you have to do to fix this map.

The foundry guidelines state, that
    All map makers are expected to take all graphical comments into consideration and must either accept them or give sound reasoning as to why not to take particular advice.

You have not given sound reasoning as to why you should keep the current bridges, nor why my criticism of them is invalid. All you've said is "I like them so I'm keeping them". I would think someone who aspires to be a foundry assistant would know the rules and guidelines of the foundry...

Furthermore, the graphics guidelines state, that
    The look and general appearance of the map should fit with the theme of the map. You will need to consider how all the visual aspects of map fit the theme

And your current bridges do not achieve that, because they do not fit any theme. They look too much like they were just slapped on with a stroke of the default round brush. No, don't give me any shit about the emperor's new wood texture. It doesn't look like wood, the bridges don't fit with the style of the rest of the map, so you need to change them.
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Re: Classic Cities Jakarta [7/7] Page 17

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:36 am

Asking someone to change something can be done in a way as to get the map maker to do it. I have not said they will not change but the bridges you pointed me to for some reason where on a map that is based around concrete. Forgive me if I am wrong here, but this one is on canvas with a painted feel to it, or that is what I was hoping for when I started this one. So to have a bridge that is as detailed as you want is not going to fit the map. The single brush stoke as you call it would seem to fit the painted feel to the map. But it is not a brush stroke as you can it< it is a wood texture (fits Jakarta as majority of the bridges and wood planks going over the rivers, canals and sewers. So a wood effect fits Jakarta, the stroke effect as you call it, fits the painting. enough of a reason for you.
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Re: Classic Cities Jakarta [7/7] Page 17

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:02 pm

Ah Ah this reminds to me the old foundry days! :lol:
koontz, you should be happy there's someone who look at your map nowdays ;)
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Re: Classic Cities Jakarta [7/7] Page 17

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:09 pm

I am very happy nobodies, believe me, I have not had this much fun in ages. After a long time of doing nothing, I was grateful for nattys look over (in his personal way), but this one has to be chalked up to two very stubborn people who both think they are right. I only want to get the best map out to the people to play. But I do not see his solution as being better than mine. It is not as if I bunged them on a thought, OK lets leave it now, I looked at the city and saw what they used for the most part and copied that within the style of the map.
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Re: Classic Cities Jakarta [7/7] Page 17

Postby natty dread on Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:15 pm

koontz1973 wrote: So to have a bridge that is as detailed as you want is not going to fit the map.


Why wouldn't it? There are details as small as that on your background.

koontz1973 wrote:the bridges you pointed me to for some reason where on a map that is based around concrete.


Irrelevant. No one's asking you to add concrete bridges on this map. The bridges on the yugoslavia map are of fairly generic type that can be adopted to a map of many styles, I haven't said that you should take the texture and everything from them.

koontz1973 wrote:The single brush stoke as you call it would seem to fit the painted feel to the map.


If it looked like it was drawn with an actual physical brush, maybe. But it doesn't, it looks like it was drawn with the default round brush. Like you just took the paintbrush tool with the default settings when you start up GIMP for the first time and drew a single, short line and called it done.

Furthermore, nowhere else on your map are any signs of brush strokes (ok, the title but it's an exception rather than the norm). This would suggest the map is at such a level of zoom that the brush strokes aren't visible. So even if you made the bridges look like actual brush strokes, they wouldn't necessarily suit the map as they would only call to attention the lack of such details elsewhere on the map.

koontz1973 wrote: But it is not a brush stroke as you can it< it is a wood texture


There "wood texture" in this case is an informed attribute. It doesn't matter if you go on telling people "it's a wood texture", if people aren't going to see it then it's not a wood texture. Furthermore, on the size level of those bridges, especially with them being overlaid with the canvas texture of your map, any such wood texture wouldn't be recognizable as such.

The point is, I appreciate what you were trying to do with the bridges, but it just doesn't work. You failed. But don't worry, failure is the first step towards success.

koontz1973 wrote: So a wood effect fits Jakarta, the stroke effect as you call it, fits the painting. enough of a reason for you.


No, it's not enough of a reason because it only works on a theoretical level. It sounds good on paper, but in practice, those things you mention aren't showing from your work. In other words, the idea is ok but the execution is just not there.

Give them a bit of dark outline on the sides to make them better defined. Scrap the round ends and make them flat instead, or maybe very slightly jagged if you want to go with the "planks" thing. And then add some slight lengthwise colour variation to further express the "made of planks" thing. Then maybe a veeeeeery slight drop shadow to pop them up a bit, but! don't over do it.
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Re: Classic Cities Jakarta [7/7] Page 17

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:18 pm

koontz1973 wrote:but this one has to be chalked up to two very stubborn people who both think they are right. I only want to get the best map out to the people to play. But I do not see his solution as being better than mine.


Ok, I usually do in this way: take 1 or 2 days, don't look at the map....then open your file and try to do what was suggested. If it doesn't work come back to the topic and give a reason for that.

Take time, no one is asking to you to do that right now!
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Re: Classic Cities Jakarta [7/7] Page 17

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:35 pm

Going to follow nobodies advice. See you all in two days.
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Re: Classic Cities Jakarta [7/7] Page 17

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:00 pm

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Re: Classic Cities Jakarta [7/7] Page 17

Postby natty dread on Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:21 am

Those bridges look awesome!
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Re: Classic Cities Jakarta [7/7] Page 17

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:27 am

Thanks, completely redrew the map. :lol:
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Re: Classic Cities Jakarta [7/7] Page 17

Postby Flapcake on Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:22 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Thanks, completely redrew the map. :lol:


I like the dark shadow on the background
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Re: Classic Cities Jakarta [7/7] place in bin please

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:58 pm

koontz1973..is this in or out of the bin?
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Re: Classic Cities Jakarta [7/7] place in bin please

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:11 am

Going into the bin for a tad.
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Re: [Vacation - valid until Feb 2013] Classic Cities Jakarta

Postby isaiah40 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:30 am

[MOVED] per mapmakers request.

We will move it back once an update is made.
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Re: [Vacation - valid until Feb 2013] Classic Cities Jakarta

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:07 am

Leave in the bin for the moment please.

Redrawn the map itself and all aspects dealing with it.
New rivers (both types)
New bridges (not needed but done)
New mini map
In fact, only the background image has not been touched.
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Re: [Vacation - valid until Feb 2013] Classic Cities Jakarta

Postby isaiah40 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:18 pm

This looks much better! The only thing I would suggest right now is to subdue the background a tad bit to bring more contrast between the map and the background.
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Re: [Vacation - valid until Feb 2013] Classic Cities Jakarta

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:58 am

isaiah40 wrote:This looks much better! The only thing I would suggest right now is to subdue the background a tad bit to bring more contrast between the map and the background.

Decreased the contrast on the background by 20 and increased it on the map and mini map by 20 (GIMP scale). Enough? If yes, move it back please, if not, then leave it here till right please.
Click image to enlarge.
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Sorry isaiah, was working on this while we where away and intended to bin it when it was over till I was ready, but I happened to be ready to post just after the binning. Sorry to of buggered you about.
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Re: [Vacation - valid until Feb 2013] Classic Cities Jakarta

Postby isaiah40 on Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:42 pm

Looking at this again, I think that you can reduce the "bevel" of the map a tad bit. Can you subdue (decrease the opacity) of the background a tad bit more? Also the piece of paper that explains the rivers, it looks out of place. Maybe place the text on another piece of canvas, but make it so that the right side looks like it is slightly curling up off the main canvas? Just do a single colored canvas, like a yellowish-brown color.
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Re: [Vacation - valid until Feb 2013] Classic Cities Jakarta

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:35 am

Inner glow on the map itself - reduced.
reduce opacity of background - done.
Paper to canvas - done.
curl on legend canvas - not done.
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Re: [Vacation - valid until Feb 2013] Classic Cities Jakarta

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:08 pm

Can we get this moved back please. I believe all the problems raised have been addressed now.
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