Conquer Club

new post as above

This is looking great, Cairnswk. A small graphic item first: the "Wellington" name bubble seems to be covered by an island off Picton, and this seems to be the only case I see where the name bubble isn't on top of a piece land when there is overlap (such as Doubtful Sound, Rodney, Invercargill, etc).

In terms of gameplay, this looks like a map I would enjoy. Lots of small bonuses with possibilities of expansion without increasing your border count too much. With the added Tiki idea, the small bonus amount also jumps...and can in some cases with expansion, make what was once a small bonus into a formidable deploy.

For instance, Nelson (+3) with limited expansion into neighboring regions (Westport, MV, Picton) you can gather a +6 for the same border count. Of course the starting neutrals of Tikis will make this sort of play a little ways into the game, but it looks pretty formidable still. Bay of Plenty and Gisborne also have some expansion possibilities, but more borders to contend with than Nelson. Northland and Auckland isn't too far off either, though you have 2 airports (and of different kinds) to worry about there.


--Andy

AndyDufresne wrote:This is looking great, Cairnswk. A small graphic item first: the "Wellington" name bubble seems to be covered by an island off Picton, and this seems to be the only case I see where the name bubble isn't on top of a piece land when there is overlap (such as Doubtful Sound, Rodney, Invercargill, etc).

Andy, i've removed that offending island (which will show in the next version)

In terms of gameplay, this looks like a map I would enjoy. Lots of small bonuses with possibilities of expansion without increasing your border count too much. With the added Tiki idea, the small bonus amount also jumps...and can in some cases with expansion, make what was once a small bonus into a formidable deploy.

For instance, Nelson (+3) with limited expansion into neighboring regions (Westport, MV, Picton) you can gather a +6 for the same border count. Of course the starting neutrals of Tikis will make this sort of play a little ways into the game, but it looks pretty formidable still. Bay of Plenty and Gisborne also have some expansion possibilities, but more borders to contend with than Nelson. Northland and Auckland isn't too far off either, though you have 2 airports (and of different kinds) to worry about there.
--Andy

In terms of gameplay, is there anyone else interested in making some comments...or any further comments before this is moved on?

at first, i wondered why there were two kinds of airport on the map. this seemed to serve no purpose. in fact, it still doesn't.

however, i notice that there are only 6 white airports and lots of black ones. since all of the white airports serve major cities, except for gisborne, this leads to an idea to let there be a practical difference between the airports. my proposal here is to let white airports attack all airports, while black airports can attack only white airports: white airports are airline hubs and u can fly to anywhere from these hubs, whereas black airports are regional airports from which u can fly only to a main hub before changing planes. this lets the cities of new zealand have at least one strategic function or role on this map rather than being indistinguishable from small towns and rural areas: everyone must pass through a city every time they use an airport.

i also recommend merging the gisborne bonus with bay of plenty, since there are many tiny bonus zones already.

ian.

iancanton wrote:i also recommend merging the gisborne bonus with bay of plenty, since there are many tiny bonus zones already.

ian.

ian, many NZer's would be mortified: Gisborne is not part of the Bay of Plenty, so i won't be changing it.

at first, i wondered why there were two kinds of airport on the map. this seemed to serve no purpose. in fact, it still doesn't.

however, i notice that there are only 6 white airports and lots of black ones. since all of the white airports serve major cities, except for gisborne, this leads to an idea to let there be a practical difference between the airports. my proposal here is to let white airports attack all airports, while black airports can attack only white airports: white airports are airline hubs and u can fly to anywhere from these hubs, whereas black airports are regional airports from which u can fly only to a main hub before changing planes. this lets the cities of new zealand have at least one strategic function or role on this map rather than being indistinguishable from small towns and rural areas: everyone must pass through a city every time they use an airport.

ian, while i agree this is perhaps a good gameplay idea i am thinking it would complicate the gameplay for many and that is not where i want this map to be.

So let's so what others think!...if there is any feedback on this proposal.

Personally, I think the airports are good as they are, but I'll see about getting a couple of other CA's to take a look as well.

iancanton wrote:however, i notice that there are only 6 white airports and lots of black ones. since all of the white airports serve major cities, except for gisborne, this leads to an idea to let there be a practical difference between the airports. my proposal here is to let white airports attack all airports, while black airports can attack only white airports: white airports are airline hubs and u can fly to anywhere from these hubs, whereas black airports are regional airports from which u can fly only to a main hub before changing planes. this lets the cities of new zealand have at least one strategic function or role on this map rather than being indistinguishable from small towns and rural areas: everyone must pass through a city every time they use an airport.

ian.

this idea sounds good, but I also agree with cairnswk that it would complicated things.
maybe you should go with airports as they are now, but with the same numbers - 6 whites, 6 blacks (optional).
or add airports only to Tikis.

I kinda like Ian's idea here. It doesn't really sound that complicated to me.

iancanton wrote:at first, i wondered why there were two kinds of airport on the map. this seemed to serve no purpose. in fact, it still doesn't.

however, i notice that there are only 6 white airports and lots of black ones. since all of the white airports serve major cities, except for gisborne, this leads to an idea to let there be a practical difference between the airports. my proposal here is to let white airports attack all airports, while black airports can attack only white airports: white airports are airline hubs and u can fly to anywhere from these hubs, whereas black airports are regional airports from which u can fly only to a main hub before changing planes. this lets the cities of new zealand have at least one strategic function or role on this map rather than being indistinguishable from small towns and rural areas: everyone must pass through a city every time they use an airport.

Not a bad idea. Moving one of the Otago white airports to another larger city in the south might be a good idea if you go forward with this.


--Andy

right now, the map is very open indeed and most of the bonuses are right next to each other because of the black airports, resulting in a gameplay diagram that is "short and fat" for both teams (assuming a team match). my thinking is that, if only the white airports can attack black ones, then the white airports will have some strategic value for anyone who controls them all for either attack or defence, since it forces opponents to attack by land. when this happens, everywhere is within easy reach for the team in control of the white airports, while new zealand becomes "long and thin", with bottlenecks, for the team that doesn't control the white airports.

cairnswk wrote:i am thinking it would complicate the gameplay for many

in the legend, it's actually very easy to explain with pictures, though more difficult with words.

airport attack routes --->

black plane ---> white plane
white plane ---> white plane or black plane

ian.

isaiah40 wrote:Personally, I think the airports are good as they are, but I'll see about getting a couple of other CA's to take a look as well.

I agree, but let's see where this takes gameplay....

Oneyed wrote:

iancanton wrote:however, i notice that there are only 6 white airports and lots of black ones. since all of the white airports serve major cities, except for gisborne, this leads to an idea to let there be a practical difference between the airports. my proposal here is to let white airports attack all airports, while black airports can attack only white airports: white airports are airline hubs and u can fly to anywhere from these hubs, whereas black airports are regional airports from which u can fly only to a main hub before changing planes. this lets the cities of new zealand have at least one strategic function or role on this map rather than being indistinguishable from small towns and rural areas: everyone must pass through a city every time they use an airport.

ian.

this idea sounds good, but I also agree with cairnswk that it would complicated things.
maybe you should go with airports as they are now, but with the same numbers - 6 whites, 6 blacks (optional).
or add airports only to Tikis.

Mmm Oneyed, thanks for commenting, but using the tikis other than for what they are now would really complicate things.
i could cope with 6 and 6, but there is now strong movement for the change to ian's idea.

natty_dread wrote:I kinda like Ian's idea here. It doesn't really sound that complicated to me.

OK, thanks for that natty.

AndyDufresne wrote:

iancanton wrote:at first, i wondered why there were two kinds of airport on the map. this seemed to serve no purpose. in fact, it still doesn't.

however, i notice that there are only 6 white airports and lots of black ones. since all of the white airports serve major cities, except for gisborne, this leads to an idea to let there be a practical difference between the airports. my proposal here is to let white airports attack all airports, while black airports can attack only white airports: white airports are airline hubs and u can fly to anywhere from these hubs, whereas black airports are regional airports from which u can fly only to a main hub before changing planes. this lets the cities of new zealand have at least one strategic function or role on this map rather than being indistinguishable from small towns and rural areas: everyone must pass through a city every time they use an airport.

Not a bad idea. Moving one of the Otago white airports to another larger city in the south might be a good idea if you go forward with this.
--Andy

Andy thanks for suggestion...but the regional airports are in those places for tourist and major city reasons. I really wouldn't want to change that.

iancanton wrote:right now, the map is very open indeed and most of the bonuses are right next to each other because of the black airports, resulting in a gameplay diagram that is "short and fat" for both teams (assuming a team match). my thinking is that, if only the white airports can attack black ones, then the white airports will have some strategic value for anyone who controls them all for either attack or defence, since it forces opponents to attack by land. when this happens, everywhere is within easy reach for the team in control of the white airports, while new zealand becomes "long and thin", with bottlenecks, for the team that doesn't control the white airports.

cairnswk wrote:i am thinking it would complicate the gameplay for many

in the legend, it's actually very easy to explain with pictures, though more difficult with words.

airport attack routes --->

black plane ---> white plane
white plane ---> white plane or black plane

ian.

OK, i see where you're coming from ian.

i like: black plane ----> white plance

but i think the other should only be white plane ----> white plane.

And to open it up even more, could we have?:
black plane ----> white plance or black plane
white plane ----> white plane

This would be more to my liking.

cairnswk wrote:i like: black plane ----> white plance

but i think the other should only be white plane ----> white plane.

And to open it up even more, could we have?:
black plane ----> white plance or black plane
white plane ----> white plane

This would be more to my liking.

conceptually, it doesn't make so much sense that u can fly from a resort airport to any destination, while u can fly from a major airport only to another major airport and not to a resort. there's no hint on the map of any reason for this odd situation. however, although it's the opposite of what most people would expect, it can be made to work, if u really want it that way, by reversing the ratio of black planes to white planes, so that there are only 5 or 6 of the kind that can attack both colours.

assuming the current 6 white planes and many black planes, if we let black ---> both colours while white ---> white, then the fact that there are so many black planes means they do not have much strategic value because its impossible to block them all, therefore new zealand can never be "long and thin" for anyone (unless the result is no longer in doubt). there is then very little difference between this situation and "all airports attack each other", where most bonus zones on north island are adjacent to most on south island and to each other, so that new zealand loses its topological shape and the connections diagram could be for almost anywhere.

for most of the tiki, perhaps use 3 starting neutrals instead of 4. gisborne and hawera need to have one extra neutral troop because their bonuses are easier.

ian.

iancanton wrote:

cairnswk wrote:i like: black plane ----> white plance

but i think the other should only be white plane ----> white plane.

And to open it up even more, could we have?:
black plane ----> white plance or black plane
white plane ----> white plane

This would be more to my liking.

conceptually, it doesn't make so much sense that u can fly from a resort airport to any destination, while u can fly from a major airport only to another major airport and not to a resort. there's no hint on the map of any reason for this odd situation. however, although it's the opposite of what most people would expect, it can be made to work, if u really want it that way, by reversing the ratio of black planes to white planes, so that there are only 5 or 6 of the kind that can attack both colours.

assuming the current 6 white planes and many black planes, if we let black ---> both colours while white ---> white, then the fact that there are so many black planes means they do not have much strategic value because its impossible to block them all, therefore new zealand can never be "long and thin" for anyone (unless the result is no longer in doubt). there is then very little difference between this situation and "all airports attack each other", where most bonus zones on north island are adjacent to most on south island and to each other, so that new zealand loses its topological shape and the connections diagram could be for almost anywhere.

for most of the tiki, perhaps use 3 starting neutrals instead of 4. gisborne and hawera need to have one extra neutral troop because their bonuses are easier.

ian.

Perhaps the following will clarify my idea for you.

White planes.
Air New Zealand National - Domestic Services
Air New Zealand National operates full service daily jet services to 5 Domestic destinations - Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, Queenstown and Dunedin.

Black Planes
Air New Zealand Link - Domestic Services
Air New Zealand Link operates full service air services to 23 regional destinations within New Zealand including Auckland, Kerikeri, Whangarei, Hamilton, Tauranga, Whakatane, Rotorua, New Plymouth, Wanganui, Taupo, Gisborne, Napier, Hastings, Palmerston North, Wellington, Blenheim, Christchurch, Oamaru, Invercargill, Nelson, Hokitika, Westport, Dunedin and Queenstown with daily schedule services.

IN this real life situation:
white plane ----> white plane
black plane ----> white plance or black plane

If this creates a situation where the map is too open, then we could restrict the black planes to a north and south divide.
This would then only allow the white planes to assault each other between each island, while the black planes can assault any white or black on each island.

Does this make better sense?

cairnswk wrote:Air New Zealand Link operates full service air services to 23 regional destinations within New Zealand including Auckland, Kerikeri, Whangarei, Hamilton, Tauranga, Whakatane, Rotorua, New Plymouth, Wanganui, Taupo, Gisborne, Napier, Hastings, Palmerston North, Wellington, Blenheim, Christchurch, Oamaru, Invercargill, Nelson, Hokitika, Westport, Dunedin and Queenstown with daily schedule services.

cairnswk wrote:If this creates a situation where the map is too open, then we could restrict the black planes to a north and south divide.
This would then only allow the white planes to assault each other between each island, while the black planes can assault any white or black on each island.

both black and white aiports are in the 23 listed. it makes complete sense if all planes assault all black and white within each island, while the only inter-island air assaults are between white airports.

ian.

I see your image of new zealand air transit, and raise you another:

show

Ha. Though in all reality, I like ian's suggestions. But I don't think I've formed too much of an opinion either way about how heart broken if things remained the way they are.


--Andy

at the first I have queston about Tikis. some of them are airports, some of them not. this makes difference between them. a little...

to the airports, I know nothing about xml, but there are too much of them I think. I like idea white --- white, white --- black, black --- black. but if it is possible you can reduce number of airports.

Oneyed.

cairnswk wrote:

what are u trying to say? there are no black ---> black routes at all? or all routes go to or from auckland, wellington or christchurch?

ian.

iancanton wrote:...
what are u trying to say? there are no black ---> black routes at all? or all routes go to or from auckland, wellington or christchurch?
ian.

That's true according to the map, but what i was trying to say also with that the list of airports previously ...
I wanted to show that the large airports (as whites) only operated to the large airports
while the small airports (as blacks) could operate to black and white.
Hence
white <---> white
black ----> white and black
This also makes sense for the size of the airport, since most jet planes probably couldn't land on small regional runways, but smaller planes could land on larger runways.

So i stick by my

white <---> white
black ----> white and black
and as i said if black ---> white and black is too open, then restrict the black to each each island.

AndyDufresne wrote:I see your image of new zealand air transit, and raise you another:

show

Ha. Though in all reality, I like ian's suggestions. But I don't think I've formed too much of an opinion either way about how heart broken if things remained the way they are.


--Andy

OK. Thanks Andy.

thanks Oneyed for your comments.

Oneyed wrote:at the first I have queston about Tikis. some of them are airports, some of them not. this makes difference between them. a little...

Yes they may need moving....i think there are 4 that i count.

to the airports, I know nothing about xml, but there are too much of them I think. I like idea white --- white, white --- black, black --- black. but if it is possible you can reduce number of airports.
Oneyed.

OK, i can do that, but some direction to what to remove would be good.

cairnswk wrote:I wanted to show that the large airports (as whites) only operated to the large airports
while the small airports (as blacks) could operate to black and white.
Hence
white <---> white
black ----> white and black
This also makes sense for the size of the airport, since most jet planes probably couldn't land on small regional runways, but smaller planes could land on larger runways..

u are mixing up airlines and airports. air new zealand itself operates large planes between white airports only. the diagram shows that anz link operates small planes from white to black and from black to white, but not between same-coloured airports; the only possible arrivals at black airports are from white airports. to reproduce the difference between the two airlines requires two terminals at each white airport. this is probably overdoing the air travel part of the map unless u change the theme completely.

cairnswk wrote:So i stick by my

white <---> white
black ----> white and black
and as i said if black ---> white and black is too open, then restrict the black to each each island.

the one-way attacks do not make logical sense for air travel, since it's ridiculous to say that u can fly from hokitika to christchurch or from any small airport to hokitika, but not from christchurch to hokitika, especially when the diagram shows that only christchurch planes go to hokitika.
nonetheless, i believe that the gameplay scheme which u outline here (white to any white airport anywhere and black to any airport on the same island) is capable of working well.

4 neutrals for each tiki is probably excessive for most tiki. i suggest 3 for most tiki, but 4 for gisborne and hawera because the latter two are in 2-region bonus zones and are more likely to be occupied early in the game.

ian.

iancanton wrote:nonetheless, i believe that the gameplay scheme which u outline here (white to any white airport anywhere and black to any airport on the same island) is capable of working well.
ian.

this sounds good to me. maybe white to any white anywhere and to black in the same island, black to any in the same island could also works...

just what with difference between Tikis with airport and Tikis without airport?

also maybe you can delete lake in Qoeentown.

Oneyed

iancanton wrote:...
nonetheless, i believe that the gameplay scheme which u outline here (white to any white airport anywhere and black to any airport on the same island) is capable of working well.

Yay!! we have some agreement

4 neutrals for each tiki is probably excessive for most tiki. i suggest 3 for most tiki, but 4 for gisborne and hawera because the latter two are in 2-region bonus zones and are more likely to be occupied early in the game.

ian.

Done!

Oneyed wrote:

iancanton wrote:nonetheless, i believe that the gameplay scheme which u outline here (white to any white airport anywhere and black to any airport on the same island) is capable of working well.
ian.

this sounds good to me. maybe white to any white anywhere and to black in the same island, black to any in the same island could also works...

OK, but let's stick the simple scheme outlined above.

just what with difference between Tikis with airport and Tikis without airport?

tikis on airport territories have been moved.
also black plane removed from Westport.

also maybe you can delete lake in Qoeentown.
Oneyed

Mmm. let's leave that for graphics later.

Version 8, changes as per listed above.

hm, airport gameplay looks fine now. but could you a little play with airports deployment? or they are done by reality?

each region (continent) have one or none airport, except Cantenbury and Otago. they have two airports.
Cantenbury is the largest region so two airports here are fine. by I can not see any reason why Otago could has two airports (and neither why two whitesones). what about to take white airport from Queenstown to west coast? maybe add it to Milford Sound (Southland is the second largest region, so would has also two airports).

the north island has 33 regions and 5 black airports, the south island has 39 regions and 4 black airports. maybe add one black airport to Karamia?

Oneyed