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Version 11.6 FRANCE 2.1

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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - V3 - [10 mai 2012] pg 1/4

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:56 pm

FRANCE 2.0 - V3 - [10 mai 2012] pg 1/4 should read FRANCE 2.0 - V5 - [23/6] pg 1/5. If I am not mistaken, this is something I have asked of you before.

As for the update, it is coming along great guns now. One last thing I would like to see is some texture on the map. This also has been asked before. Please put one on just to break up the continuous colour blocks. A light paper one would work nice.
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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - V5 - [23/6] pg 1/6

Postby Mishalex on Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:52 am

I'm sorry Koontz, but i don't understand what you mean when you talk about "texture"! can you explain us with image please? thanks
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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - V5 - [23/6] pg 1/6

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:36 am

Mishalex wrote:I'm sorry Koontz, but i don't understand what you mean when you talk about "texture"! can you explain us with image please? thanks

OK then, here is a couple of my maps with and without the texture.
These first two are from the mag map in the main foundry. As you can see, the colour of Romania is this bright ghastly purple but after 3 layers of texture are added, you get this dark red that is not a solid colour. And this is what your map needs to be, not solid blocks of colour.
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This second set is from a map that I have just abandoned. Even though the first shows the way I am aiming for when I take it up again, it has 4 layers of texture. The second one only has the first layer on. A simple noise addition and bump map effect.
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Have a look at these by natty dread...
viewtopic.php?f=649&t=123772
He explains how to add them to your map.
If you do not find one there that you like, you can always look here
http://www.cgtextures.com/
Use the same technique as nattys.

It all depends on how you want the map to look at the end. Hope that helps.
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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - V5 - [23/6] pg 1/6

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:12 am

I really like what you're doing with this map!

However, I do have a major disagreement with the idea of Paris as a killer neutral.

More than any other major country, France is totally focused on the capital. In Italy, Ravenna and Milan and Venice have at various times been more important than Rome. In Russia, Petrograd and Kiev and even Smolensk were at various times more important than Moscow. In the U.S., the economic power of New York and Chicago eclipses the political power of Washington. In China, Shanghai and Canton sometimes don't even remember that Peking exists.

Paris stands alone among the world's capitals as being the unchallenged and unquestioned ruler of its domain. All road and rail and air networks are focused on Paris. The French economy is totally focused on Paris, French politics are totally focused on Paris, French culture and entertainment are totally focused on Paris. Lyon very briefly had more money during the late medieval period, but even then had to bow to Parisian kings. Vichy briefly held a sad and pathetic remnant of the French government. Marseilles is pretty big but has never dreamed of being equal to Paris.

I realize that gameplay comes first and we're can sacrifice geographical and historical realities to some degree. But making Paris a killer neutral isn't just a minor tweak. It's a completely counter-intuitive reversal of reality. Normally one associates killer neutrals with wild and unihabitable zones, the total opposite of what a capital is. To treat Paris like some Missile Launch zone or Algonquin Territory seems 100% wrong.
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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - V5 - [23/6] pg 1/6

Postby Oneyed on Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:44 am

very nice map.

at the first I agree with Dukasaur about Paris. and also, if I good understand, Paris (1) is killer neutral, but also a victory condition. this is not possible.

it is hard to read names on Savoie for me. and this is big map, in small one it would be harder.

maybe you could add any symbol for Belfort - it will be easier to find it.

could have Foreign Clams names?

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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - V5 - [23/6] pg 1/6

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:12 am

Dukasaur and Oneyed are right, Paris 1 cannot be a killer neutral and a part of the winning condition. Scrap the winning condition completely. Easier to have and anyone who has bonus near it will win the game before a player with a bonus on the outside can even get to it.
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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - V6 - [24/6] pg 1/6

Postby Lancelot du Lac on Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:52 am

Thank you.

Regarding your advice on gameplay, I'll think with my friend mishalex.

I just made two updates. The difference between the two is the only map bonuses.

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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - V6 - [24/6] pg 1/6

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:18 pm

You do not need it for the mini map, but very nice for now. Please post the map on this page as well and update the title.
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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - Version 6 [24 juin 2012] pg 6/6

Postby Lancelot du Lac on Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:36 pm

Last update. Work on texture :

VERSION 6
1. Map Name France 2.0
2. Version 6 [24 juin 2012]
3. Dimension : 915 * 927
Click image to enlarge.
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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - Version 6 [24 juin 2012] pg 6/6

Postby Mishalex on Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:29 pm

OK, thanks Koontz...

I understand your point of view Dukasaur and Oneyed, but i like a map when there is a victory condition on it... So maybe we can drop down the neutral condition idea and just continu with the victory condition...

What do you think of it? I have to talk with Lancelot also...

Thanks for your advice guys
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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - Version 6 [24 juin 2012] pg 6/6

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:42 pm

You winning condition still relies on Paris very heavily. Any one who drops close is going to win this. If you want to keep a winning condition on the map, how about spreading it around a tad. Say hold Paris and any 4 of the free territories (where is Belfort as I cannot find it?).
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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - Version 6 [24 juin 2012] pg 6/6

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:00 pm

Mishalex wrote:I understand your point of view Dukasaur and Oneyed, but i like a map when there is a victory condition on it... So maybe we can drop down the neutral condition idea and just continu with the victory condition...

Just to clarify. I have no objection to having a victory condition. I think victory conditions are great additions to gameplay. I was objecting to the killer neutral idea, which I think is the opposite of what Paris is. However, koontz makes a very good point:
koontz1973 wrote:You winning condition still relies on Paris very heavily. Any one who drops close is going to win this. If you want to keep a winning condition on the map, how about spreading it around a tad. Say hold Paris and any 4 of the free territories (where is Belfort as I cannot find it?).

Definitely, the winning condition should be fairly broad in scope, so that it isn't too easy for someone to scoop it up with a lucky drop.
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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - Version 6 [24 juin 2012] pg 6/6

Postby Mishalex on Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:16 pm

But Paris is the door to attack the free territories, so that's make the win too easy in my opinion...

You said, holding Paris and the 4 free territories will make a good winning condition?
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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - Version 6 [24 juin 2012] pg 6/6

Postby nolefan5311 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:24 pm

This is shaping up to be a gorgeous map. Very nice work...the texture really added another dimension to it.

I will say that once this hits the gameplay stage, there may be quite a few suggested changes in bonus values and perhaps some recommendations on combining a couple bonus zones to keep you from having too many starting neutrals (the two regions bonuses are going to have to have starting neutrals on them, or you'll have to combine them into larger bonuses), but we can worry about that once it's gets the draft stamp.

I really hope you continue development with this one.
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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - Version 6 [24 juin 2012] pg 6/6

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:58 pm

Mishalex wrote:But Paris is the door to attack the free territories, so that's make the win too easy in my opinion...

You said, holding Paris and the 4 free territories will make a good winning condition?


On the map, Paris can one way attack the foreign claims, can they also attack the free territories?

[Sticky]

Will move this one up in a couple of days.

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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - Version 6 [24 juin 2012] pg 6/6

Postby Mishalex on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:00 am

Ah ok, sorry, thought you were talking abut regional claims...

Yeah, we could had one or two free territories to the winning condition...
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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - Version 6 [24 juin 2012] pg 6/6

Postby Lancelot du Lac on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:55 am

As I understand it, simply remove killer neutral on Paris and suburbs right now ?

You can hold your victory condition and see if it is interesting to keep it later ?
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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - Version 6 [24 juin 2012] pg 6/6

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:04 am

Lancelot du Lac wrote:As I understand it, simply remove killer neutral on Paris and suburbs right now ?

Yes, that you can do.
You can hold your victory condition and see if it is interesting to keep it later ?

But the victory condition as is will not work, as I said, holding a territ that attacks all of the other territs you need for the win, if you drop close to Paris, you will end up with winners very early in the game while others on the outskirts of the map will wonder why they had no chance. This does not make for a map that will be played a lot. As I said, spreading the WC around the map, allows everyone the chance to win.
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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - Version 6 [24 juin 2012] pg 6/6

Postby Mishalex on Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:48 am

A simple WC could be "Hold for one turn all regional claims"
What you think?
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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - Version 6 [24 juin 2012] pg 6/6

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:56 am

Mishalex wrote:A simple WC could be "Hold for one turn all regional claims"
What you think?

But if the only way to get to them is through Paris, you still have the problem of anyone dropping close will win.

You have 4 solutions...
spreading them around like I suggested,
make the claims the winning condition with Paris but do not allow Paris to assault them, Maybe bombard,
Put 50+ neutrals on Paris so it cannot be taken early,
Drop the winning condition like World 2.1 as it seems you are trying to emulate it.

These are the only ways I can think of right now that will allow you the GP stamp which is next but nole will look after you then so see what he says.
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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - Version 6 [24 juin 2012] pg 6/6

Postby Mishalex on Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:00 am

I wasn't talking about Foreign claims that can only be assault by Paris, but i was thinking of all regional claims...
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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - Version 6 [24 juin 2012] pg 6/6

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:19 am

Mishalex wrote:I wasn't talking about Foreign claims that can only be assault by Paris, but i was thinking of all regional claims...

That would work then, my bad. But add Paris to the mix as well as this is central to the map.
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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - Version 6 [24 juin 2012] pg 6/6

Postby Mishalex on Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:13 am

So after à talk with Lancelot, we both think that Holdind Paris + the suburbs + one regional claims (Bretagne or Vendée or Normandie or Savoie or Corse or Belfort) could be good, but we are going to put 30 troops on Paris and 20 on each suburbs, could be hard to take don't you think?
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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - Version 6 [24 juin 2012] pg 6/6

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:07 am

That is a lot of troops and no one will do it. Every game will be normal with no wins from that. This is the balancing act you have to follow. Bung it on, but nole who will take over in a couple of days will advise you better on that. But for now, sit back, polish what you have and get ready for the main foundry.
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Re: FRANCE 2.0 - Version 6 [24 juin 2012] pg 6/6

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:05 am

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Onwards and upwards you go. Good luck with this one guys.

koontz.
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