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[Official revamp] North America

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:53 pm
by natty dread
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North America revamp contest winner.

Link to contest thread: viewtopic.php?f=467&t=165164&view=unread#unread


List of changed territory names
    South Greenland -> Greenland
    North Greenland -> Iqaluit
    Canadian Shield -> Kenora
    New England -> New York
    New York -> Pennsylvania
    Louisiana -> Mississippi
    Dominican Republic -> Hispaniola
    Haiti -> East Cuba
    Cuba -> West Cuba
    Belize -> Guatemala
    Nicaragua -> Honduras





XML:
nam1.xml
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Latest images:

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Re: North America revamp

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:55 pm
by Sniper08
looks great natty although i think the land mark icons need to be smaller(i.e statue of liberity and the mountee)

Re: North America revamp

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:00 pm
by Oneyed
are there no enough America maps? I like your graphics skills and this one is great by graphics, but nothing special in gameplay or historical events.
sorry natty for not nice words.

Oneyed

Re: North America revamp

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:13 pm
by natty dread
Sniper08 wrote:looks great natty although i think the land mark icons need to be smaller(i.e statue of liberity and the mountee)


Not going to happen, sorry. They're at the size they need to be, making them smaller would just lose detail, especially when the small version has to be 75% of the size of this one.

Re: North America revamp

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:39 pm
by Gilligan
Absolutely stunning map, natty. There will be extremely little to change on this..if anything at all.

Re: [Official Revamp] - North America

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:56 pm
by Victor Sullivan
The only thing I'd prefer is to revert back to Cuba, Haiti, and Dominican Republic, instead of what you have now. I expect the reasoning behind the new distribution is spatial? I suppose it could be a tight fit for the small.

-Sully

Re: [Official Revamp] - North America

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:59 pm
by The Bison King
Looks good. The only thing I wold suggest is changing that mysterious and straight river above Wisconsin and the Dakotas into a row of pine tree's or something. There isn't a river there, there's a lot of lakes, maybe you could do something with lakes.

Re: [Official Revamp] - North America

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:01 pm
by thenobodies80
Although I asked just for votes I received an additional input from a juror, maybe can help you:

it very easy to distinguish borders, impassables, regions, and continents. The biggest detraction I have for it is the images all over the place. They are distracting and not needed for the map. The clutter things up.


Now, I think it's a great map, really nice. I would suggest you to redraw the sea connections, they look not at the same quality level of the rest of the map. Then you really need the black circle around bahamas? If you make sea connections that start or end where you place the numbers on the islands it will be clear without that ugly circle....it's like nunavit and Iqaluit...those are clear even if there's no circle but there're tons of island there ;)
There're a couple of small refinement that can be done on the alaskan coast (the balck parts on small islands near the british columbia) or on teh yucatan but it's really try to find something "wrong"....

Re: [Official Revamp] - North America

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:04 pm
by The Bison King
Maybe squeeze one more landmark in for the west coast. Golden Gate bridge maybe?

Re: [Official Revamp] - North America

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:10 pm
by The Bison King
oh, ok one more thing 8-[ The Delmarva peninsula, you reconnected it to the mainland, and turned the Chesapeake bay into a lake. You should probably fix that.


ok I swear I'm done...

Re: North America revamp

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:32 pm
by koontz1973
Sniper08 wrote:looks great natty although i think the land mark icons need to be smaller(i.e statue of liberity and the mountee)

Seconded. Smaller icons would look far better. Also, some look great while others look sloppy [canoeist and tanker].
natty dread wrote:Not going to happen, sorry. They're at the size they need to be, making them smaller would just lose detail, especially when the small version has to be 75% of the size of this one.

Typical natty quote here. No one has an opinion better than his. :roll:

The title could do with a bit of a going over. Looks rather plain and ordinary. Sort of like a first time map maker. Why do the sea routes have different thickness's. Not only all over the map, but within the same lines? Impassables look ordinary. River has been mentioned but the ice, sure I have seen that before on another of your maps. ;) How about trying something a tad different? The mountains are just not right. And before you say they match the ice, so what. They need to be different. You have a colourful map, colourful icons and dull boring mountains. Surely, a better mountain can be found to fit the map? (a) in Arazona has a funny slant to it. Why?

Re: [Official Revamp] - North America

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:13 am
by natty dread
Ok, as far as feedback goes, it looks like everyone has their own "opinions" about this map... so let me put this in a way that is clear: I am NOT going to redraw this map, I am NOT going to remove the pictures that supposedly "clutter" the map, I am NOT redoing the title, I am NOT doing any other stupid thing that someone thinks is wrong with this map. This is the map that people voted, and the way it is is how they voted it, so I am not going to make it look totally different just because someone has a different "vision" of what he wants of this map. The FF is for minor adjustments and fixes, not reinventing the whole concept.

So, keeping that in mind...

Victor Sullivan wrote:The only thing I'd prefer is to revert back to Cuba, Haiti, and Dominican Republic, instead of what you have now.


Well, I didn't change them just for fun... it works better this way.

The Bison King wrote:Looks good. The only thing I wold suggest is changing that mysterious and straight river above Wisconsin and the Dakotas into a row of pine tree's or something.


I know there isn't a river there, and I've tried to stay as true as possible to the geography of the continent, but I'm sort of restricted by the original gameplay which I'm not allowed to change. Also, I don't want to add another type of impassable to the map just for this one border.

thenobodies80 wrote:I would suggest you to redraw the sea connections, they look not at the same quality level of the rest of the map.


What exactly is wrong with them? I can redraw them but I need to know what it is that I should be fixing.

thenobodies80 wrote:Then you really need the black circle around bahamas? If you make sea connections that start or end where you place the numbers on the islands it will be clear without that ugly circle....it's like nunavit and Iqaluit...those are clear even if there's no circle but there're tons of island there


I can remove the circle...

The Bison King wrote:Maybe squeeze one more landmark in for the west coast. Golden Gate bridge maybe?


I don't think it's a good idea to add any more of them. I think we're pretty much at the saturation level for landmarks...

The Bison King wrote:oh, ok one more thing 8-[ The Delmarva peninsula, you reconnected it to the mainland, and turned the Chesapeake bay into a lake. You should probably fix that.


Ok I think I can fix that...

koontz1973 wrote:Typical natty quote here. No one has an opinion better than his. :roll:


If you're going to be an asshole I'm going to ignore you.

Re: [Official Revamp] - North America

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:24 am
by koontz1973
natty dread wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:Typical natty quote here. No one has an opinion better than his. :roll:


If you're going to be an asshole I'm going to ignore you.


Just saying how it is. Now why not read my comments and comment on them. Ignore them if you want but they are valid points. You may not like them, you may even disagree with them, but as you have said many times before, that is not the way the foundry works. Come up with valid points on why my suggestions are not valid, and I will stay quiet.

And before you throw insults around, think. You have posted many times on how your opinion is better than anyone else. So my quote of yours was the truth, even though it was said in jest.

Re: [Official Revamp] - North America

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:45 am
by cairnswk
Wait, wait, Natty wait for me...you won't get a chance to tell me to go to hell either if you act too fast :lol: :lol: :lol:

Firstly, congratulations on wining the contest. =D> =D>

The only things i wasn't totally happy with, even though i picked it as being your map (from your textures)
was the title and the mountains. Title could have done with a little something extra and kind of looks a bit ho-hum as is now.
The mountains didn't do it for me period.
But it was a better overall map than the others produced imho which is why it got my vote initial voting.

Also, perhaps you haven't read the fine print although i doubt that, and you are just simply digging in your heels once again...
Note: The winning map will have a dedicated topic in the Final Forge and it will be uploaded only after a final public review. From that moment the map will be considered like any other map in the Foundry System, in terms of standards, requirements...


i would consider that if there is a number of commentors who have issues with any aspect of the map, then it needs to be addressed or justified in the appropriate manner. Simply saying i am not going to do this or that won't do...as i have been reminded of so often. Surely we don't have to visit the Instanbul thread where you yourself were party to requesting changes. :)

Re: [Official Revamp] - North America

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:12 am
by macbone
I dig the map, Natty. The connections are clear, and the artwork adds a nice aesthetic flair to the map.

It does feel a little strange to get rid of the Dominican Republic. Maybe adopt the Israel and Palestinian Territory route from the Middle East Map and include Haiti and Dominican Republic as one tert (or rename it as Hispaniola, since Haiti is only the name of the country on the western side of the island, and is smaller both in population and total landmass)? But based on the size of Cuba, it makes sense that Cuba is two terts and Hispaniola is only 1.

Re: [Official Revamp] - North America

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:12 am
by Dukasaur
natty dread wrote:
The Bison King wrote:Maybe squeeze one more landmark in for the west coast. Golden Gate bridge maybe?


I don't think it's a good idea to add any more of them. I think we're pretty much at the saturation level for landmarks...

If you move the saguaros from the Rio Grande region where you have them, over to Arizona, I think you could satisfy Bison's concern about the southwest being too empty without hurting anything, and you'd improve the realism at the same time (saguaros don't grow in the lower Rio Grande valley, they grow exlusively in the Sonora.)

Re: [Official Revamp] - North America

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:30 am
by natty dread
cairnswk wrote:Wait, wait, Natty wait for me...you won't get a chance to tell me to go to hell either if you act too fast :lol: :lol: :lol:

Firstly, congratulations on winng the contest. =D> =D>


Haha, thanks cairns. I'm not going to tell you to go to hell - we've had our differences at times but I still respect your opinion as an experienced mapmaker.

cairnswk wrote:The only things i wasn't totally happy with, even though i picked it as being your map (from your textures)
was the title and the mountains. Title could have done with a little something extra and kind of looks a bit ho-hum as is now.


Well, the thing is, I have a certain style on this map which I've tried to keep consistent overall. Kind of like how my Eurasia map has a sort of watercolour style, on this map I tried to go for a bit of like it's drawn with colour pencils... or maybe more like, the lines are drawn with an ink pen and the colours were done with colour pencils, or maybe aquarelle pencils... I don't know if it's a thing elsewhere, but when I was in school we often had assignments where we had to draw stuff with those colour pencils. For example, there could be a geography assignment to draw a map of North America, and draw in some things that represent each place on the map...

Anyway, I think the mountains fit with the style, and so far it really looks to me like most people don't have a problem with them. As for the title, I don't want the title to be anything flashy, I think there's enough going on on the map that the title doesn't need to compete for attention, and with this in mind I don't really see what else I could do with it...

cairnswk wrote:i would consider that if there is a number of commentors who have issues with any aspect of the map, then it needs to be addressed or justified in the appropriate manner.


Yep, and I have addressed all reasonable feedback. If there are any technical details that need to be fixed, like maybe there's pixelation somewhere, or maybe the kerning is out of whack, then I have no problem fixing those. But when it comes to aesthetical concerns, that are largely a matter of opinion, like if someone doesn't like the style of the mountains for example... then I'm allowed to use my own judgement there, unless there is a clear majority, or a large influx of people asking for a certain change.

Re: [Official Revamp] - North America

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:43 am
by natty dread
macbone wrote:I dig the map, Natty. The connections are clear, and the artwork adds a nice aesthetic flair to the map.

It does feel a little strange to get rid of the Dominican Republic. Maybe adopt the Israel and Palestinian Territory route from the Middle East Map and include Haiti and Dominican Republic as one tert (or rename it as Hispaniola, since Haiti is only the name of the country on the western side of the island, and is smaller both in population and total landmass)? But based on the size of Cuba, it makes sense that Cuba is two terts and Hispaniola is only 1.


Wellll.... :-k

Yeah, I think that's doable, if I move the label below the island.

Dukasaur wrote:If you move the saguaros from the Rio Grande region where you have them, over to Arizona, I think you could satisfy Bison's concern about the southwest being too empty without hurting anything, and you'd improve the realism at the same time (saguaros don't grow in the lower Rio Grande valley, they grow exlusively in the Sonora.)


Well the thing is, they wouldn't fit very comfortably in Arizona. It would be too crowded there, especially on the small version... Honestly, I only chose the saguaro because it's the most recognizable cactus, but I could probably change it to something more appropriate...

Maybe I'll change it to peyote ;)

Re: [Official Revamp] - North America

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:15 am
by Dukasaur
natty dread wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:If you move the saguaros from the Rio Grande region where you have them, over to Arizona, I think you could satisfy Bison's concern about the southwest being too empty without hurting anything, and you'd improve the realism at the same time (saguaros don't grow in the lower Rio Grande valley, they grow exlusively in the Sonora.)


Well the thing is, they wouldn't fit very comfortably in Arizona. It would be too crowded there, especially on the small version... Honestly, I only chose the saguaro because it's the most recognizable cactus, but I could probably change it to something more appropriate...

Maybe I'll change it to peyote ;)

Peyote is nice, but I don't think most people would recognise it...:)

Anyway, the saguaro is great, and you're right, it is the most recognisable cactus.

Maybe if the taller one sat partly in California, and only the shorter one was completely in Arizona? That would still be fairly realistic (since the Sonora does sit partly in southern Cal) and it would still contribute to the balance of having a Southwest landmark.

Re: [Official Revamp] - North America

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:39 am
by natty dread
Mmyeah I don't think it'll fit comfortably that way either... also USA already has like 5 landmarks, while Mexico only has 2.

Re: [Official Revamp] - North America

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:49 am
by The Bison King
Yeah, quite trying to rob Mexico of it's landmarks!

Re: [Official Revamp] - North America

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:01 am
by natty dread
Ok here's a little update, I didn't change the cacti yet because I haven't yet found a cactus that looks good and grows in the area... other concerns are taken care of, slab of land cut from the east coast, haiti renamed to hispaniola, also yucatan label moved to sea to make more room for troop numbers, bahama sea routes changed & circle removed, aaaaaand that's about it.

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Re: [Official Revamp] - North America

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:12 am
by Dukasaur
It looks good.

And the cacti are a trivial issue -- it won't hurt anything to keep them where they are, if that's what works best.

=D>

Re: [Official Revamp] - North America

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:01 pm
by AndyDufresne
Really like the map. I hope that the small version of the map doesn't get too long or tall. :D


--Andy

Re: [Official Revamp] - North America

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:16 am
by natty dread
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