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Re: Magyarország [14/8] Pg 1/13

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:30 pm

Thanks lostalimbo, I do try my best.
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Re: Magyarország [14/8] Pg 1/13

Postby RedBaron0 on Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:31 pm

Alright then, lets hear any and all remaining -valid- issues.
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Re: Magyarország [14/8] Pg 1/13

Postby GoranZ on Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:00 pm

After the Great War of 1914-1918, Europe lies in ruins. As a result of the Treaty of Trianon, the Kingdom of Hungary is reduced to 28% of it's pre-war size. More then 3 million ethnic Hungarians awake to find themselves citizens of new country. Unite them once again.

Maybe I write this too late but the legend text in the map is not correct. In the first part "After the Great War of 1914-1918, Europe lies in ruins. As a result of the Treaty of Trianon, the Kingdom of Hungary is reduced to 28% of it's pre-war size." you talk about Kingdom of Hungary but in the second part "More then 3 million ethnic Hungarians awake to find themselves citizens of new country. Unite them once again." you talk about Hungarians. Now what is this map about? About Hungarians or Kingdom of Hungary. From the map I can not see any nation, I only see lands that were part of Kingdom of Hungary.

More then 3 million ethnic Hungarians awake to find themselves citizens of new country. Unite them once again.

So this has nothing to do with the current map... From the map I see you unite Kingdom of Hungary, there is huge difference.

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Re: Magyarország [14/8] Pg 1/13

Postby RedBaron0 on Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:52 pm

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While the above post has little to do with graphics, it still warrants an explanation.
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Re: Magyarország [14/8] Pg 1/13

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:38 am

GoranZ, without getting into too much detail as I have had enough of that, but let me explain and see if you can come up with something better.

The first part deals with the history.
"After the Great War of 1914-1918, Europe lies in ruins. As a result of the Treaty of Trianon, the Kingdom of Hungary is reduced to 28% of it's pre-war size"
This is in to explain what had happened to Hungary after the treaty. At one point the maps name was just that. Whilst it is history and correct, some members may not know it. If you take this part out, all you have is a map of a part of Europe with no reasoning why it has been chosen.
Second part deals with more of the history but the why as well.
"More then 3 million ethnic Hungarians awake to find themselves citizens of new country. Unite them once again."
One of the things about the treaty was, it allowed a lot of people who never considered themselves Hungarians to have a new life in a new country. If you look at the kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovines and the area that was given to them, the majority of the people living in that region where Serbs, Croats and Slovines. A minority where native Hungarians though. People born in Hungary proper or to Hungarian parents. It is these people that give the why. Why play the map, what is the story behind the maps purpose.

The map works just as well without the back story but if you can come up with a wording that includes the all of the elements, more than happy for it to change. History and the why.

On another note, thanks RB0. Always nice to get the blue stamp. ;)
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Re: Magyarország [14/8] Pg 1/13

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:39 am

Map image with neutrals. Old map but good for neutrals.
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Re: Magyarország [14/8] Pg 1/13

Postby nolefan5311 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:46 am

Thanks koontz. I will upload the file tonight, but the XML has been posted in the Official Check thread.
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Re: Magyarország [14/8] Pg 1/13

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:52 am

Sorry nole, here is the latest one with all of the neutrals on. Forgot that you and ian asked for one more.
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Re: Magyarország [14/8] Pg 1/13

Postby GoranZ on Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:45 pm

koontz1973 I will ask again. What is this map about, Kingdom of Hungary or about ethnic Hungarians?

koontz1973 wrote:The first part deals with the history.
"After the Great War of 1914-1918, Europe lies in ruins. As a result of the Treaty of Trianon, the Kingdom of Hungary is reduced to 28% of it's pre-war size"
This is in to explain what had happened to Hungary after the treaty. At one point the maps name was just that. Whilst it is history and correct, some members may not know it. If you take this part out, all you have is a map of a part of Europe with no reasoning why it has been chosen.

I don't have any problem with the first part and how the map looks like atm. Your map represents the Dissolution of the Kingdom of Hungary.

koontz1973 wrote:Second part deals with more of the history but the why as well.
"More then 3 million ethnic Hungarians awake to find themselves citizens of new country. Unite them once again."
One of the things about the treaty was, it allowed a lot of people who never considered themselves Hungarians to have a new life in a new country. If you look at the kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovines and the area that was given to them, the majority of the people living in that region where Serbs, Croats and Slovines. A minority where native Hungarians though. People born in Hungary proper or to Hungarian parents. It is these people that give the why. Why play the map, what is the story behind the maps purpose.

The map works just as well without the back story but if you can come up with a wording that includes the all of the elements, more than happy for it to change. History and the why.

Second part is what is problematic part according to the current map. I can not notice a single nation on your map, yet you are talking about unification of Hungarian people into one country. Unification that didn't happen. So in the second part you end with the history and you start with something else ;)

I think that the full legend text should contain only facts about Kingdom of Hungary. I can propose something but it can be changed(I throw first thing that came into my mind):
After the Great War of 1914-1918, Europe lies in ruins. As a result of the Treaty of Trianon, the Kingdom of Hungary is reduced to 28% of it's pre-war size. The dissolution of the Kingdom ended the golden age of Hungary.


Also titles Shattered Land Bonus, Saved Land Bonus and Consolidated Land Bonus should be changed.
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Re: Magyarország [14/8] Pg 1/13

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:11 pm

GoranZ, I like what you propose but I do not see your problem with what is on the map already. I am sure you know this history better than me as you are from Macedonia and a native of this region, but can I please ask you to explain yourself. Is there a specific reason that you object to it?

The first part of the text which deals with the history portion...
After the Great War of 1914-1918, Europe lies in ruins. As a result of the Treaty of Trianon, the Kingdom of Hungary is reduced to 28% of it's pre-war size. More then 3 million ethnic Hungarians awake to find themselves citizens of new country.

What is wrong with this? Which part is wrong? Have I got my facts wrong?
Unite them once again.

And this simple sentence is just the why. As I said, it is only in so the players of the game know what the basis of the map is. What the objective of the game is.

Also titles Shattered Land Bonus, Saved Land Bonus and Consolidated Land Bonus should be changed.

For what reason? They describe the different bonuses.
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Re: Magyarország [14/8] Pg 1/13

Postby nolefan5311 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:42 pm

GoranZ wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:Second part deals with more of the history but the why as well.
"More then 3 million ethnic Hungarians awake to find themselves citizens of new country. Unite them once again."
One of the things about the treaty was, it allowed a lot of people who never considered themselves Hungarians to have a new life in a new country. If you look at the kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovines and the area that was given to them, the majority of the people living in that region where Serbs, Croats and Slovines. A minority where native Hungarians though. People born in Hungary proper or to Hungarian parents. It is these people that give the why. Why play the map, what is the story behind the maps purpose.

The map works just as well without the back story but if you can come up with a wording that includes the all of the elements, more than happy for it to change. History and the why.

Second part is what is problematic part according to the current map. I can not notice a single nation on your map, yet you are talking about unification of Hungarian people into one country. Unification that didn't happen. So in the second part you end with the history and you start with something else ;)

I think that the full legend text should contain only facts about Kingdom of Hungary. I can propose something but it can be changed(I throw first thing that came into my mind):
After the Great War of 1914-1918, Europe lies in ruins. As a result of the Treaty of Trianon, the Kingdom of Hungary is reduced to 28% of it's pre-war size. The dissolution of the Kingdom ended the golden age of Hungary.


You are correct in that a single nation is not represented on the map, but it is pretty clear, imo, what the map represents; that all of the land shown was, before the Treaty of Trianon, part of the Hungarian Empire, but are, post-Treaty, their own independent states. The other regions are shown on the map inasmuch as they were no longer part of the Hungarian Empire. The fact is that those 3 million people were once subjects of the Hungarian Empire, not necessarily that all those people were ethnic Hungarians. The goal of the map is to reunite all of these lands under the Kingdom of Hungary. This is apparently a very touchy subject as Oneyed's feelings indicate, but that is my take on the map.

koontz, perhaps it would be more politically correct to make it only about the land lost, and not about the people that were affected? However, I find it hard to believe that you're going to please everyone with whatever you decide to do.

GoranZ wrote:Also titles Shattered Land Bonus, Saved Land Bonus and Consolidated Land Bonus should be changed.


I also don't see why they should be changed.

Shattered Lands = the lands that were no longer part of the Kingdom of Hungary after the Treaty
Saved Lands = the lands that remained a part of the Kingdom of Hungary after the Treaty
Consolidated Lands = just the wording for the bonus of reuniting a Saved Land and a Shattered Land.
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Re: Magyarország [14/8] Pg 1/13

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:50 pm

Koontz, you should tackle an Israel and Palestine map next. Lets see if we can compound the number of opinions about everything! ;) :D


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Re: Magyarország [14/8] Pg 1/13

Postby Oneyed on Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:24 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:Koontz, you should tackle an Israel and Palestine map next.


maybe koontz or anybody else could do "historic" map of the USA with so many errors or inacurates as this map has...
AndyDufresne wrote:Lets see if we can compound the number of opinions about everything! ;) :D


--Andy


...and then lets see yours notices. btw, these notices are more historic reasons as "only" opinions...

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Re: Magyarország [14/8] Pg 1/13

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:51 pm

OK, lets lets have a different wording for the story then. This is what GoranZ suggested. Any objections to this...
After the Great War of 1914-1918, Europe lies in ruins. As a result of the Treaty of Trianon, the Kingdom of Hungary is reduced to 28% of it's pre-war size. The dissolution of the Kingdom ended the golden age of Hungary.

With this added at the end.
Unite the Kingdom of Hungary once again.

If that is better, then will do so. But again, I only ask why.


AndyDufresne wrote:Koontz, you should tackle an Israel and Palestine map next. Lets see if we can compound the number of opinions about everything! ;) :D

--Andy

I see no reason why a Israel/Palestine map could not be made at some point.
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Re: Magyarország [14/8] Pg 1/13

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:43 am

I honestly do not see any reason to do this as it makes no difference what so ever, but in order to keep the peace, I have changed the text to what GoranZ suggested. (Do not want to be called a colonial dog like I was over some text in Rorke's Drift ;) ). The only thing I have added to it is the Why part at the end.
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Re: Magyarország [14/8] Pg 1/13

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:09 pm

Oneyed wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:Koontz, you should tackle an Israel and Palestine map next.


maybe koontz or anybody else could do "historic" map of the USA with so many errors or inacurates as this map has...
AndyDufresne wrote:Lets see if we can compound the number of opinions about everything! ;) :D


--Andy


...and then lets see yours notices. btw, these notices are more historic reasons as "only" opinions...

Oneyed

Oneyed, no offense was meant, just a simple joke. Smile and have a laugh, you'll live longer. ;)


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Re: Magyarország [14/8] Pg 1/13

Postby GoranZ on Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:41 am

koontz1973 wrote:If that is better, then will do so. But again, I only ask why.

Your previous text had Kingdom of Hungary and unification of Hungarians... current one only has Kingdom of Hungary. There is a difference since the map only showed Kingdom of Hungary and not Hungarians or any other nationalities. So last text is more accurate to the map.
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Re: Magyarország [5/9] Pg 1/15

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:47 am

Thanks.
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Re: Magyarország [5/9] Pg 1/15

Postby GoranZ on Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:56 am

nolefan5311 wrote:The fact is that those 3 million people were once subjects of the Hungarian Empire, not necessarily that all those people were ethnic Hungarians.

There were ~3 million people ethnic Hungarians + 7-8 million people non Hungarians in the territories that Kingdom of Hungary lost.

nolefan5311 wrote:The goal of the map is to reunite all of these lands under the Kingdom of Hungary. This is apparently a very touchy subject as Oneyed's feelings indicate, but that is my take on the map.

koontz, perhaps it would be more politically correct to make it only about the land lost, and not about the people that were affected? However, I find it hard to believe that you're going to please everyone with whatever you decide to do.

The goal of the map was to reunite all Hungarians, not Kingdom of Hungary...

nolefan5311 wrote:
GoranZ wrote:Also titles Shattered Land Bonus, Saved Land Bonus and Consolidated Land Bonus should be changed.


I also don't see why they should be changed.

Shattered Lands = the lands that were no longer part of the Kingdom of Hungary after the Treaty
Saved Lands = the lands that remained a part of the Kingdom of Hungary after the Treaty
Consolidated Lands = just the wording for the bonus of reuniting a Saved Land and a Shattered Land.

I was thinking about different naming(more accurate to what happened to the territories)... for example Breakaway Lands(or Breakaway Territories) for Shattered Lands.
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Re: Magyarország [5/9] Pg 1/15

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:57 am

There were ~3 million people ethnic Hungarians + 7-8 million people non Hungarians in the territories that Kingdom of Hungary lost.

The closest thing I can think of with a modern example to this is America. All are American but some use different terms like Latin American or African American. All of the people in the lands would of been subjects to the Kingdom but as you pointed out, within the lands lost, most people would of considered themselves more Slavic or Serb. So on this I concede the point and as you suggest, made it lands, not people.

I was thinking about different naming(more accurate to what happened to the territories)... for example Breakaway Lands(or Breakaway Territories) for Shattered Lands.

This is not quite accurate. Some of them where given away in the treaty, some where taken by force and some where given a vote on where they wanted to be. So breakaway implies removing itself without any help from outside. Sopron was given to Austria by the treaty but after a vote, it was given back to Hungary and is still part of it. The names of the bonuses will stay as is.
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Re: Magyarország [14/8] Pg 1/13

Postby iancanton on Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:26 am

koontz1973 wrote:
Unite the Kingdom of Hungary once again.

i'm glad we've found something that's sounds neat and is mutually acceptable.

nolefan5311 wrote:
GoranZ wrote:Also titles Shattered Land Bonus, Saved Land Bonus and Consolidated Land Bonus should be changed.

I also don't see why they should be changed.

Shattered Lands = the lands that were no longer part of the Kingdom of Hungary after the Treaty
Saved Lands = the lands that remained a part of the Kingdom of Hungary after the Treaty
Consolidated Lands = just the wording for the bonus of reuniting a Saved Land and a Shattered Land.

koontz1973 wrote:The names of the bonuses will stay as is.

nolefan has explained it very nicely. this is probably the only map on which we'll see the words shattered and saved used in this way. they resonate well in this case. in the legend key, change consolidated land bonus to the consolidated bonus which is used elsewhere.

now i'm going away for a long weekend. see u after i return from budapest (and i'm going nowhere near árva or szepes).

ian. :)
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Re: Magyarország [5/9] Pg 1/15

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:37 am

Will change the consolidated bonus title as you suggested. Have a great time in Budapest, a great city that could be much better and cleaner. Just a sod now to fly in and out of now they closed the old terminal down. Forget the taxis, bloody expensive.
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Re: Magyarország [5/9] Pg 1/15

Postby thehippo8 on Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:15 am

I've had a good read of all this and I can't help but feel that oneyed has been hard done by here. If I have this right, Koontz. you don't want to place Arva and Szepes where they are supposed to be bacause you like them where you put them and that's the end of that? Sorry, but I can't for the life of me see how your version is so much better and aethetic than oneyed's accurate version. The "I can't be bothered" response is unacceptable and you need to come back with something more legitimate than "no I don't want to"! Why don't you want to? And incidentally, shame on you Isaiah, Nolefan and Nobodies for missing the fundamental role of the Foundry. Sure, oneyed did no favours for himself in the way he has been posting but frankly what's he supposed to do when he is just being ignored (and then tag team bullied!). Nobodies says that no one else cares and that's why the discussion should end. Well, now someone else cares. Anyway, I'd like Koontz to please come back with a proper reason for not following oneyed's suggestion. Crikey, he even drew an example as to how it would worK!
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Re: Magyarország [5/9] Pg 1/15

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:10 am

thehippo8 wrote:I've had a good read of all this and I can't help but feel that oneyed has been hard done by here. If I have this right, Koontz. you don't want to place Arva and Szepes where they are supposed to be bacause you like them where you put them and that's the end of that? Sorry, but I can't for the life of me see how your version is so much better and aethetic than oneyed's accurate version. The "I can't be bothered" response is unacceptable and you need to come back with something more legitimate than "no I don't want to"! Why don't you want to? And incidentally, shame on you Isaiah, Nolefan and Nobodies for missing the fundamental role of the Foundry. Sure, oneyed did no favours for himself in the way he has been posting but frankly what's he supposed to do when he is just being ignored (and then tag team bullied!). Nobodies says that no one else cares and that's why the discussion should end. Well, now someone else cares. Anyway, I'd like Koontz to please come back with a proper reason for not following oneyed's suggestion. Crikey, he even drew an example as to how it would worK!


OK, lets put this to bed once and for all. This is going to be a long post so everyone needs to have patience. Hippo, I have not explained it only as game play trumps his real version only and have not said I could not be bothered so I now feel as if you have done me a hardship.

Oneyed first post in this thread stats this.
the part of Trencsen and Arva which you have on map were never Polish.

Later to be contradicted by him when he posted this map.
Click image to enlarge.
image

As you can see, in the first map that I posted, and I mentioned this when I posted the map that the names needed to be adjusted (now the correct names are on the map), the two parts where given to Poland, even though it was only the very tops of the regions. So this leads to the problems, do I have the two territs in question as Czech or Polish.
Here are the reason why I chose to have them as Polish...
Czech already has a large number of terrts. To add more would give it a size the same as Romania and two very large continents like that would be bad for gameplay.
Leaving Poland of the map would be wrong historically as Poland was a benefactor of the treaty.
So now we have the reason for Poland being on the map. And I am sure that no one can claim that Poland should not be part of the map.

We get to the names of the two territs.
When I posted my initial draft, I called them Trencsen and Arve. This was corrected by Oneyed and called Orawa and Spisz in the next version. These two names are wrong as the regions where not called this at the time and are modern names for the regions. After further correction they became Arva and Szepes. These names are correct for the time in history and have been on the map since version 8.

Placement on the map.
Here is the first map that Oneyed posted in the thread asking for the map to be changed.
Click image to enlarge.
image

As you can see, it has both of the Polish territs sitting behind one territ (Lipto). I explained this is bad for game play and this is the only time I have done so for his wanted change. Why is it bad, because a +1 bonus can be guarded behind one single territ. And before you say this is OK, remember, each bonus for the outside gets a lot larger when a single bonus from the inside is taken.
And here is the second map from Oneyed.
Click image to enlarge.
image

As you can see from this map, all he has done is move the territ line so Lipto does not hold both. And once again I rejected it. Here is my reasoning behind this one.
It does not as Oneyed suggested make the territs move to the correct place.
How can I say that, well look back at the county map which I posted and Oneyed copied for his Polish white bits.
Arva on that map connects to Lipto, Trencsen and Turoc.
Szepes on that map connects to Lipto, Saros, Gomor-kis-hont and Abauj-torna.
Now on my map.
Arva connects to Turoc
Szepes connects to Lipto
I have bolded the names so you can see more clearly that the two territs are connected to the correct territs.
So why not move Arva to lipto and Sezpes to Saros. What benefit does it give to the map? None what so ever. The only benefit would be that this thread would be about 5 pages shorter.
So now I have explained why they are called what they are, why I rejected Oneyeds first suggestion and why it was rejected the second time.

I make these maps to play a game on, not to present to a history class. There are many things on this map that are not correct in real life, and I very much doubt anyone could find a map on this site that is 100% accurate.

Now lets look at the rest of the map. To make this map 100% accurate in size, number of territs etc, I would need this to be a lot larger. About the same size as the large supersize map for the small one alone. As that would never be allowed, I made some choices at the beginning. All changes that I made from real life where and are for game play purposes. What is it that would want me to play this map. Where to add impassables, where to have the borders for territs. All this was done with gameplay in mind. Why have I given names to territs the way I have. For history. These names are correct for the time period. But if you look at the county map again, find Fiume. Fiume was a city that was given to the Italians. Modrus was not. So like Poland, Italy needed to be on the map but does it warrant such a large territ. No, so it was split up and given the two names. One part to Italy and the other to Serb,Slavic and Croat. The name is correct but the split is not. But for GP reasons it is.

If you re read this thread hippo, look again at what is being suggested. I have accommodated all suggestions by everyone where it benefits the map. From story, bonuses, gameplay, graphics, background, foreground. Well lets just say everything. Now that is how a map is made, and how it should be done. Even the story and name changes that where given by Oneyed where added until a better option was given. Oneyed wanted me to change the placement of two territs. His first reason was rejected and again so was the second. I explained myself completely in the thread throughout. At no time in this thread have I not explained myself.

thehippo8 wrote:Sure, oneyed did no favours for himself in the way he has been posting but frankly what's he supposed to do when he is just being ignored (and then tag team bullied!).

You do yourself a disservice here hippo. At no time has Oneyed been ignored or tag teamed against. I have posted replies to all of his suggestions and the reason why they where rejected. Go find one where I have not.
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Re: Magyarország [5/9] Pg 1/15

Postby thehippo8 on Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:50 am

I consider myself appropriately rebuked here Koontz, apologies if I hurt your feelings. But I do appreciate you putting that all together in the one post because I accept that over multiple pages the thread of that was a little hard (for me) to follow. This issue is well and truly settled and I thank you for taking the time to explain this (again). As Thenobodies says, at the end of the day - this is your map and you cannot pander to every whim and fancy! Looking forward to this map cracking throught to Beta!
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