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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby tkr4lf on Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:25 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
GoranZ wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:I'm open to push the mapmakers for improvement but it doesn't have a political discussion or with me, at least on the web, you'll find only closed doors.

But as the map is proposed it has enormous political influence.

The problem is this: What if someone tries to make a map of unification of Great Moravia? It will consist of present day Czech republic, Slovakia, Hungary and small parts of Ukraine, Poland and Romania. I'm sure that the idea will have huge support among all Slavic nationalities on this site, and huge disapproval from Hungarians. I'll give you why for the map if needed... "All Slavic nations will be connected". Everyone can correctly guess what will be the main goal of the map.
But from present day Unification of Great Moravia is only a desire that has around 0% chances to be achieved, more or less similarly as Unification of Kingdom of Hungary.

And what if everyone starts to make maps from mixture of desires and Countries/Cities... where will that lead?

It will lead to some good games, that's where.

What are you doing if you play a Napoleonic wargame? You are playing a scenario predicated on Napoleon's desire to rule Europe. That doesn't mean you are a Napoleon worshiper, or that you're French, or even that you like the French. It simply means you enjoy taking on the challenge and seeing thing from his viewpoint.

What are you doing when you play Third Reich, or one of its variants (probably the most common wargame type in the entire world)? You are pretending that you're the German High Command, trying to take over the world. It doesn't mean that you're a Nazi in real life, or that you're German, or that you even sympathize with 1% of the Nazi agenda. It's just fun to imagine yourself in that position, wielding that much power, and showing that you could use it better than the people who actually had it.

What are you doing when you play a game like Crusader Kings? You are pretending that you are a great Crusader, leading your armies to the Holy Land to butcher Mohammedan scum. That does not mean you hate Muslims in real life, it doesn't even mean that you're a good Catholic, and it certainly doesn't mean that in real life you would want to spend 10 years traveling through hostile lands, looting and pillaging just to eat. Hell, most of us, with our 20th Century city-bred sensibilities, would probably vomit if we really had to chop someone up with a sword. But it's fun to pretend.

I will gladly play this Magyar-perspective map, even though I am not a Magyar. Make that map of Greater Moravia, and I will gladly play that too! Make a map of Greater Somalia, and I will gladly play that too, even though I'm not Somalian. Make a map of Mussolini's aspirations for a New Roman Empire, and I will play that too, although I'm not Italian and I'm not a fascist.

I once designed a gaming scenario based on the premise that the French succeeded in kicking the British out of North America and the whole thing was French. In real life, I'm a big supporter of the British parliamentary system, and I'm glad the British won. But that doesn't stop me from being able, in a game, to immerse myself in hating the British and kicking their ass off the continent. If you are unable to make this kind of leap, then you are letting yourself get too straight-jacketed by your real-life bias.

+1
Well said.
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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:06 pm

Exactly, that's why I won't allow changes for political reasons on this map or others. I will change my opinion only if the request is done because the map represents in some way something that is against being human or it's cruelty just for the sake of it (concentration camp map) or again it has a swastika on it (site decision)
If you think the map has these type of elements on it, explain me where and i will see what can be done.

On the opposite it's just a map...I don't think someone will start a revolutionary project with it. If some people will be happy to play it for political reasons...sorry but those people have serious problems imo.
Change the map is not the solution.....It's like say that no one can park his car outside in the streets when there's a football match because extreme supporters can burn the cars. Even if you do that, they will find something else to burn. the solution is not allow this people to burn things not hide the cars.

Said that, I really don't want people is offended by a map and i'm not happy if you live in place where there are such politcal problems....but what you're asking is set a bad bad precedent that in future can be used for every map. (e.g. vegetarians people don't want the cow map because they are against kill cows)

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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby Oneyed on Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:36 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:Exactly, that's why I won't allow changes for political reasons on this map or others. I will change my opinion only if the request is done because the map represents in some way something that is against being human or it's cruelty just for the sake of it (concentration camp map) or again it has a swastika on it (site decision)
If you think the map has these type of elements on it, explain me where and i will see what can be done.

On the opposite it's just a map...I don't think someone will start a revolutionary project with it. If some people will be happy to play it for political reasons...sorry but those people have serious problems imo.
Change the map is not the solution.....It's like say that no one can park his car outside in the streets when there's a football match because extreme supporters can burn the cars. Even if you do that, they will find something else to burn. the solution is not allow this people to burn things not hide the cars.

Said that, I really don't want people is offended by a map and i'm not happy if you live in place where there are such politcal problems....but what you're asking is set a bad bad precedent that in future can be used for every map. (e.g. vegetarians people don't want the cow map because they are against kill cows)

Nobodies


I can not discus here more. I wrote several reasons what, why is wrong.
just tell me - when I good understand, nobodies, this means that foundry (cartographers) do not care if any map has historic or geographic errors?
this means that any mapmakers can change history or names by their free will?

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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby GoranZ on Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:42 pm

tkr4lf wrote:Now since we all agree that the map is good, can it be altered to represent real history instead of its distortion? Otherwise I'm against making of the map(or any other map that is based on distortion of history)

I believe it's called Alternate History, and there are entire works based around it. I guess you can call it Distortion, if you have an ulterior motive (political agenda), but that doesn't make it so. It's Alternate History, and as such is a work of fantasy.[/quote]
lol Alternate history, you made me lough a lot. Just don't say that you play from Alternate Universe...

Dukasaur wrote:Napoleonic wargame, Third Reich, German High Command, Crusader Kings...

Some of your enlisted maps/concepts are accurate historical events, both Napoleon and Hitler almost conquer the world and Crusaders capture Jerusalem several times... and that is represented in those maps. It happened so there can not be hard feelings among anyone ;). On the other hand Unification of Hungary never happen, it was political manifest of Hungarian fascists.

thenobodies80 wrote:Exactly, that's why I won't allow changes for political reasons on this map or others. I will change my opinion only if the request is done because the map represents in some way something that is against being human or it's cruelty just for the sake of it (concentration camp map) or again it has a swastika on it (site decision)
If you think the map has these type of elements on it, explain me where and i will see what can be done.

On the opposite it's just a map...I don't think someone will start a revolutionary project with it. If some people will be happy to play it for political reasons...sorry but those people have serious problems imo.
Change the map is not the solution.....It's like say that no one can park his car outside in the streets when there's a football match because extreme supporters can burn the cars. Even if you do that, they will find something else to burn. the solution is not allow this people to burn things not hide the cars.

Said that, I really don't want people is offended by a map and i'm not happy if you live in place where there are such politcal problems....but what you're asking is set a bad bad precedent that in future can be used for every map. (e.g. vegetarians people don't want the cow map because they are against kill cows)

Nobodies

You are mixing few things, probably intentionally, tho IDK why... no one is asking the story of the map to be changed because of political reasons but because of Historical accuracy(enlisted in previous posts). As it is the map represent fascist manifest for unification of Kingdom of Hungary.
http://youtu.be/XFxjy7f9RpY

Even a little kid knows whats the name of my country.

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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:44 pm

Oneyed wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:Exactly, that's why I won't allow changes for political reasons on this map or others. I will change my opinion only if the request is done because the map represents in some way something that is against being human or it's cruelty just for the sake of it (concentration camp map) or again it has a swastika on it (site decision)
If you think the map has these type of elements on it, explain me where and i will see what can be done.

On the opposite it's just a map...I don't think someone will start a revolutionary project with it. If some people will be happy to play it for political reasons...sorry but those people have serious problems imo.
Change the map is not the solution.....It's like say that no one can park his car outside in the streets when there's a football match because extreme supporters can burn the cars. Even if you do that, they will find something else to burn. the solution is not allow this people to burn things not hide the cars.

Said that, I really don't want people is offended by a map and i'm not happy if you live in place where there are such politcal problems....but what you're asking is set a bad bad precedent that in future can be used for every map. (e.g. vegetarians people don't want the cow map because they are against kill cows)

Nobodies


I can not discus here more. I wrote several reasons what, why is wrong.
just tell me - when I good understand, nobodies, this means that foundry (cartographers) do not care if any map has historic or geographic errors?
this means that any mapmakers can change history or names by their free will?

Oneyed


if there's a reason, consistency on the whole map and an explanation for that, yes...it depends what the mapmaker is trying to do.
No one has never said that we made world cartography to explore the world or as archive for future generations.
As i always said we are not national gepgraphic or a cartographic archive, we're just on a world domination playing site, so maps must be fun and balanced...nothing else.

Like I said in a previous post, italy map is not the real/perfect representation of the italian country; it's just the mapmaker vision of it. I can't send a pm to Rjbeals and tell him that his map is wrong because in real life italiy is not in that way and expect he changes the map; on the other hand i can say him that cities are assigned very bad (that is a well know issue with that map) and that thing should have fixed when the map was developed.

This is the distinction I've always tried to explain to you and the same thing King Achilles has explained to you with his pm (the movie example).
Obviously if your focus is to try to represent the history or geography of a region, then you need to be accurate....but in the ends it only depends on what you're trying to achieve.

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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:48 pm

GoranZ wrote:As it is the map represent fascist manifest for unification of Kingdom of Hungary.


If it is in that way, please explain in detail why, what and where things on the map make it a political fascist manifest.
So you're saying that koontz is a fascist and he is trying to made a political manifest as propaganda for his ideas? I doubt it is in that way...but please explain you reasoning, i'm all ears.

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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby GoranZ on Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:35 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:
GoranZ wrote:As it is the map represent fascist manifest for unification of Kingdom of Hungary.


If it is in that way, please explain in detail why, what and where things on the map make it a political fascist manifest.
So you're saying that koontz is a fascist and he is trying to made a political manifest as propaganda for his ideas? I doubt it is in that way...but please explain you reasoning, i'm all ears.


Ok... Greater Hungary aka Unification of Kingdom of Hungary is fascist Arrow Cross Party political concept. I enlist quotes of what Arrow Cross Party is and what was its political concept about the issue.

The Arrow Cross Party was a national socialist party led by Ferenc Szálasi, which led in Hungary a government known as the Government of National Unity from 15 October 1944 to 28 March 1945. During its short rule, ten to fifteen thousand people (many of whom were Jews) were murdered outright, and 80,000 people were deported from Hungary to their deaths in the Auschwitz concentration camp. After the war, Szálasi and other Arrow Cross leaders were tried as war criminals by Soviet courts.


From section: Rise to power
The Arrow Cross subscribed to the Nazi ideology of "master races" which, in Szálasi's view, included the Hungarians and Germans, and it also supported the concept of an order based on the power of the strongest – what Szálasi called a "brutally realistic étatism". However, its espousal of territorial claims under the banner of a "Greater Hungary" and Hungarian values (which Szálasi labelled "Hungarizmus" or "Hungarianism") clashed with Nazi ambitions in central Europe, delaying by several years Hitler's endorsement of that party.


Sources used:
Arrow Cross Party
Greater Hungary

I'm not even asking for the map to be abandoned... I'm only asking for the correct historical facts to be presented, mainly in the story of the map and minimal change in the names of the bonuses.

P.S. I never called koontz fascist or supported of fascists, nor I will, don't label me with words that I have not said.
http://youtu.be/XFxjy7f9RpY

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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby Oneyed on Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:59 pm

look here nobodies and make your own opinion.

this is about one of the strongest political party.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobbik

and this is their opinion on Trianon. I must notice that Jobbik is official political party, so they presentation is moderated.
http://jobbik.com/gabor_vona_europe_kep ... _interview

Oneyed

EDIT: and this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixty-Four ... h_Movement
Last edited by Oneyed on Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby nolefan5311 on Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:42 pm

This whole thing is so incredibly ridiculous.
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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby GoranZ on Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:12 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:This whole thing is so incredibly ridiculous.


Welcome to Europe :D... Now you can understand why European Union project MUST work ;)
http://youtu.be/XFxjy7f9RpY

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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby Oneyed on Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:14 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:This whole thing is so incredibly ridiculous.


I tell you what is not incredibly ridiculous, but plaintively. I from the start of this map noticed several errors (which could be easy edited without change of gameplay), I also noticed that this theme has neo fascist tone. and nobody cares...

and incredible ridiculous is how stubborn is koontz - he did not change anything and how stubborn is your support. I never saw here another mapmaker who negate all advices and help. because help to do better accuracy map was my intention.

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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby nolefan5311 on Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:58 pm

Oneyed wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:This whole thing is so incredibly ridiculous.


I tell you what is not incredibly ridiculous, but plaintively. I from the start of this map noticed several errors (which could be easy edited without change of gameplay), I also noticed that this theme has neo fascist tone. and nobody cares...

and incredible ridiculous is how stubborn is koontz - he did not change anything and how stubborn is your support. I never saw here another mapmaker who negate all advices and help. because help to do better accuracy map was my intention.

Oneyed


No, it's ridiculous. You're taking what is supposed to be a fun website and acting as if your future is at risk. You know why nobody cares? Because IT DOESN'T MATTER. If you feel so strongly, make your own map about the region. And you know what? NOBODY WILL CARE about the political implications of your map, either. I realize I'm beating my head against the wall talking to you about this, but you just need to realize that when the webmaster uploads the map and the xml, it will be released into play as it is currently constituted (unless, of course, lack or tnb decide it needs changes).

And get your facts straight Oneyed. I support koontz as a mapmaker and the freedom he has to make a map the way he wants it made, regardless of how many people think the political implications of the map are offensive. I don't support any political idealogy associated with any map, because IT DOESN'T MATTER.
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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby tkr4lf on Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:28 pm

GoranZ wrote:
tkr4lf wrote:
GoranZ wrote:Now since we all agree that the map is good, can it be altered to represent real history instead of its distortion? Otherwise I'm against making of the map(or any other map that is based on distortion of history)

I believe it's called Alternate History, and there are entire works based around it. I guess you can call it Distortion, if you have an ulterior motive (political agenda), but that doesn't make it so. It's Alternate History, and as such is a work of fantasy.

lol Alternate history, you made me lough a lot. Just don't say that you play from Alternate Universe...


Ever heard of the Command and Conquer series of RTS Strategy games? In particular, have you ever heard of Command and Conquer: Red Alert?

It's a game based on the idea that Einstein traveled back in time, killed Hitler before he could take power in Germany, and altered the course of history. You get back to the future and now Soviet Russia under the leadership of Stalin is attacking all of Europe. Without Hitler and WW2 happening, Stalin built up power until he could challenge all of Europe. Each side has some fantastic weaponry, like Tesla Coils for the Soviets and Chronospheres for the Allies. You can play as either the Soviets or the Allies, and the goal is to either take over all of Europe, or to halt Russia's advance and proceed to take it over, deposing Stalin.

That is called Alternate History. It's taking what actually happened in history, and changing something, to make something else happen. It's commonly used in games, books, movies, etc. It works particularly well for games, in my opinion, since it let's you play out how it could happen if only this had happened, instead of that.

Do you understand now?
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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby thehippo8 on Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:58 pm

Well, if Oneyed was playing Devil's advocate (and I know he wasn't so bear with me if you think I'm deluded) this debate has been nothing short of brilliant! Sure, there may be a few people falling off the edge, but we can stick out our hand and pull them back up easy as pie. But cutting through all the friction, this has been a great debate and I've enjoyed it immensely.

Can we play the map now?
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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby iancanton on Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:31 am

is it acceptable to everyone to keep the map with existing gameplay (or possibly with oneyed's rearrangement of árva and szepes), but simply change the story? if the map is dated before the treaty of trianon is signed, then hungarian names for the regions were the official names. i've drafted an example of how the story might read.

After the Great War of 1914-18, Europe lies in ruins. The Treaty of Trianon, which is being negotiated, will reduce the Kingdom of Hungary to 28% of its pre-war size. While foreign powers are still bickering over the spoils, stage an uprising and unite the country under your leadership.

ian. :)
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