Conquer Club

Dukasaur wrote:

GoranZ wrote:

thenobodies80 wrote:I'm open to push the mapmakers for improvement but it doesn't have a political discussion or with me, at least on the web, you'll find only closed doors.

But as the map is proposed it has enormous political influence.

The problem is this: What if someone tries to make a map of unification of Great Moravia? It will consist of present day Czech republic, Slovakia, Hungary and small parts of Ukraine, Poland and Romania. I'm sure that the idea will have huge support among all Slavic nationalities on this site, and huge disapproval from Hungarians. I'll give you why for the map if needed... "All Slavic nations will be connected". Everyone can correctly guess what will be the main goal of the map.
But from present day Unification of Great Moravia is only a desire that has around 0% chances to be achieved, more or less similarly as Unification of Kingdom of Hungary.

And what if everyone starts to make maps from mixture of desires and Countries/Cities... where will that lead?

It will lead to some good games, that's where.

What are you doing if you play a Napoleonic wargame? You are playing a scenario predicated on Napoleon's desire to rule Europe. That doesn't mean you are a Napoleon worshiper, or that you're French, or even that you like the French. It simply means you enjoy taking on the challenge and seeing thing from his viewpoint.

What are you doing when you play Third Reich, or one of its variants (probably the most common wargame type in the entire world)? You are pretending that you're the German High Command, trying to take over the world. It doesn't mean that you're a Nazi in real life, or that you're German, or that you even sympathize with 1% of the Nazi agenda. It's just fun to imagine yourself in that position, wielding that much power, and showing that you could use it better than the people who actually had it.

What are you doing when you play a game like Crusader Kings? You are pretending that you are a great Crusader, leading your armies to the Holy Land to butcher Mohammedan scum. That does not mean you hate Muslims in real life, it doesn't even mean that you're a good Catholic, and it certainly doesn't mean that in real life you would want to spend 10 years traveling through hostile lands, looting and pillaging just to eat. Hell, most of us, with our 20th Century city-bred sensibilities, would probably vomit if we really had to chop someone up with a sword. But it's fun to pretend.

I will gladly play this Magyar-perspective map, even though I am not a Magyar. Make that map of Greater Moravia, and I will gladly play that too! Make a map of Greater Somalia, and I will gladly play that too, even though I'm not Somalian. Make a map of Mussolini's aspirations for a New Roman Empire, and I will play that too, although I'm not Italian and I'm not a fascist.

I once designed a gaming scenario based on the premise that the French succeeded in kicking the British out of North America and the whole thing was French. In real life, I'm a big supporter of the British parliamentary system, and I'm glad the British won. But that doesn't stop me from being able, in a game, to immerse myself in hating the British and kicking their ass off the continent. If you are unable to make this kind of leap, then you are letting yourself get too straight-jacketed by your real-life bias.

thenobodies80 wrote:Exactly, that's why I won't allow changes for political reasons on this map or others. I will change my opinion only if the request is done because the map represents in some way something that is against being human or it's cruelty just for the sake of it (concentration camp map) or again it has a swastika on it (site decision)
If you think the map has these type of elements on it, explain me where and i will see what can be done.

On the opposite it's just a map...I don't think someone will start a revolutionary project with it. If some people will be happy to play it for political reasons...sorry but those people have serious problems imo.
Change the map is not the solution.....It's like say that no one can park his car outside in the streets when there's a football match because extreme supporters can burn the cars. Even if you do that, they will find something else to burn. the solution is not allow this people to burn things not hide the cars.

Said that, I really don't want people is offended by a map and i'm not happy if you live in place where there are such politcal problems....but what you're asking is set a bad bad precedent that in future can be used for every map. (e.g. vegetarians people don't want the cow map because they are against kill cows)

Nobodies

tkr4lf wrote:Now since we all agree that the map is good, can it be altered to represent real history instead of its distortion? Otherwise I'm against making of the map(or any other map that is based on distortion of history)

Dukasaur wrote:Napoleonic wargame, Third Reich, German High Command, Crusader Kings...

thenobodies80 wrote:Exactly, that's why I won't allow changes for political reasons on this map or others. I will change my opinion only if the request is done because the map represents in some way something that is against being human or it's cruelty just for the sake of it (concentration camp map) or again it has a swastika on it (site decision)
If you think the map has these type of elements on it, explain me where and i will see what can be done.

On the opposite it's just a map...I don't think someone will start a revolutionary project with it. If some people will be happy to play it for political reasons...sorry but those people have serious problems imo.
Change the map is not the solution.....It's like say that no one can park his car outside in the streets when there's a football match because extreme supporters can burn the cars. Even if you do that, they will find something else to burn. the solution is not allow this people to burn things not hide the cars.

Said that, I really don't want people is offended by a map and i'm not happy if you live in place where there are such politcal problems....but what you're asking is set a bad bad precedent that in future can be used for every map. (e.g. vegetarians people don't want the cow map because they are against kill cows)

Nobodies

Oneyed wrote:

thenobodies80 wrote:Exactly, that's why I won't allow changes for political reasons on this map or others. I will change my opinion only if the request is done because the map represents in some way something that is against being human or it's cruelty just for the sake of it (concentration camp map) or again it has a swastika on it (site decision)
If you think the map has these type of elements on it, explain me where and i will see what can be done.

On the opposite it's just a map...I don't think someone will start a revolutionary project with it. If some people will be happy to play it for political reasons...sorry but those people have serious problems imo.
Change the map is not the solution.....It's like say that no one can park his car outside in the streets when there's a football match because extreme supporters can burn the cars. Even if you do that, they will find something else to burn. the solution is not allow this people to burn things not hide the cars.

Said that, I really don't want people is offended by a map and i'm not happy if you live in place where there are such politcal problems....but what you're asking is set a bad bad precedent that in future can be used for every map. (e.g. vegetarians people don't want the cow map because they are against kill cows)

Nobodies

I can not discus here more. I wrote several reasons what, why is wrong.
just tell me - when I good understand, nobodies, this means that foundry (cartographers) do not care if any map has historic or geographic errors?
this means that any mapmakers can change history or names by their free will?

Oneyed

GoranZ wrote:As it is the map represent fascist manifest for unification of Kingdom of Hungary.

thenobodies80 wrote:

GoranZ wrote:As it is the map represent fascist manifest for unification of Kingdom of Hungary.

If it is in that way, please explain in detail why, what and where things on the map make it a political fascist manifest.
So you're saying that koontz is a fascist and he is trying to made a political manifest as propaganda for his ideas? I doubt it is in that way...but please explain you reasoning, i'm all ears.

The Arrow Cross Party was a national socialist party led by Ferenc Szálasi, which led in Hungary a government known as the Government of National Unity from 15 October 1944 to 28 March 1945. During its short rule, ten to fifteen thousand people (many of whom were Jews) were murdered outright, and 80,000 people were deported from Hungary to their deaths in the Auschwitz concentration camp. After the war, Szálasi and other Arrow Cross leaders were tried as war criminals by Soviet courts.

The Arrow Cross subscribed to the Nazi ideology of "master races" which, in Szálasi's view, included the Hungarians and Germans, and it also supported the concept of an order based on the power of the strongest – what Szálasi called a "brutally realistic étatism". However, its espousal of territorial claims under the banner of a "Greater Hungary" and Hungarian values (which Szálasi labelled "Hungarizmus" or "Hungarianism") clashed with Nazi ambitions in central Europe, delaying by several years Hitler's endorsement of that party.

nolefan5311 wrote:This whole thing is so incredibly ridiculous.

nolefan5311 wrote:This whole thing is so incredibly ridiculous.

Oneyed wrote:

nolefan5311 wrote:This whole thing is so incredibly ridiculous.

I tell you what is not incredibly ridiculous, but plaintively. I from the start of this map noticed several errors (which could be easy edited without change of gameplay), I also noticed that this theme has neo fascist tone. and nobody cares...

and incredible ridiculous is how stubborn is koontz - he did not change anything and how stubborn is your support. I never saw here another mapmaker who negate all advices and help. because help to do better accuracy map was my intention.

Oneyed

GoranZ wrote:

tkr4lf wrote:

GoranZ wrote:Now since we all agree that the map is good, can it be altered to represent real history instead of its distortion? Otherwise I'm against making of the map(or any other map that is based on distortion of history)

I believe it's called Alternate History, and there are entire works based around it. I guess you can call it Distortion, if you have an ulterior motive (political agenda), but that doesn't make it so. It's Alternate History, and as such is a work of fantasy.

lol Alternate history, you made me lough a lot. Just don't say that you play from Alternate Universe...

iancanton wrote:is it acceptable to everyone to keep the map with existing gameplay (or possibly with oneyed's rearrangement of árva and szepes), but simply change the story?

iancanton wrote:if the map is dated before the treaty of trianon is signed, then hungarian names for the regions were the official names. i've drafted an example of how the story might read.

After the Great War of 1914-18, Europe lies in ruins. The Treaty of Trianon, which is being negotiated, will reduce the Kingdom of Hungary to 28% of its pre-war size. While foreign powers are still bickering over the spoils, stage an uprising and unite the country under your leadership.

ian.

iancanton wrote:is it acceptable to everyone to keep the map with existing gameplay (or possibly with oneyed's rearrangement of árva and szepes), but simply change the story? if the map is dated before the treaty of trianon is signed, then hungarian names for the regions were the official names. i've drafted an example of how the story might read.

After the Great War of 1914-18, Europe lies in ruins. The Treaty of Trianon, which is being negotiated, will reduce the Kingdom of Hungary to 28% of its pre-war size. While foreign powers are still bickering over the spoils, stage an uprising and unite the country under your leadership.

ian.

Oneyed wrote:maybe better say: ...and save the Kingdom under your leadership?

GoranZ wrote:P.S. I never called koontz fascist or supported of fascists, nor I will, don't label me with words that I have not said.

thenobodies80 wrote:

Oneyed wrote:maybe better say: ...and save the Kingdom under your leadership?

Are you sure? if I have to follow your thoughts and the contents I've read in the links, the above text you posted does the opposite imo, like that the current hungary is in ruin. I think that "save the kingdom" is exactly the political concept that that political group is using to find some followers.
Personally I find ian's version really good. Or instead use the old version koontz had on the map but without the last period. Personally I don't think it's necessary to say that you have to reunite the kingdom of hungary, this becuase there's no a real-explicit objective on the map...just people will fight to control that area. Yeah maybe the story can suffer a bit for this, but I don't think it will ruin the map.

thenobodies80 wrote:I'm a bit busy today, but i will review the list of names you posted here asap to see if some other of them can be changed accordingly your suggestions.

Nobodies

ManBungalow wrote:The Budapest icon on the small map might be too small to identify with troop numbers on top.

Oneyed wrote:maybe better say: ...and save the Kingdom under your leadership?

Oneyed wrote:ones more thanks ian, you have my big apprecation.

tkr4lf wrote:

iancanton wrote:While foreign powers are still bickering over the spoils, stage an uprising and unite the country under your leadership.

In my opinion, that completely changes what the map is about. I personally like the story as is. But it's up to Koontz, so whatever he decides.

personally I find ian's version really good. Or instead use the old version koontz had on the map but without the last period. Personally I don't think it's necessary to say that you have to reunite the kingdom of hungary, this becuase there's no a real-explicit objective on the map...just people will fight to control that area. Yeah maybe the story can suffer a bit for this, but I don't think it will ruin the map.