Magyarország [Quenched]

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Re: Magyar [28/4] Version 6 pg 2.

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:06 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:I like it a lot koontz. Well done.

Thanks. Any chance of a move?
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Graphical clean up.
Graphical touch ups.
Added the back story in Hungarian as well. Fills a dead space. ;)
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Re: Magyar [29/4] Version 7 PG 1/3

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:04 am

Correct translation of text by jo5let
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Re: Magyar [29/4] Version 7 PG 1/3

Postby Solkim on Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:53 am

Technically, it is true that the Hungarian Nation was broken up, if we take "nation" to mean not "country" but - as it is supposed to be - a political-cultural unity of a certain people. Following this treaty approximately 30% (!) of the ethnically-culturally Hungarian population - or 3.3 million people - ended up outside the new borders, mostly in the north and east. Granted, some of those territories were ethnically mixed and minority Hungarian, but that was more of an excuse for the land grab, considering that many purely Hungarian areas were also annexed. In about a dozen cases the borders even ran through towns, separating familes for decades. In the few mixed towns where referendums were allowed, the decision was always in favor of belonging to Hungary.
To help you with an analogy: imagine that the southern US states are annexed to Mexico, because "it's the just thing to do" considering the large Hispanic population. This would also mean the annexation of millions of Hispanics who have an American rather than a Hispanic identity, and millions of non-Hispanic Americans, who have no desire whatsoever to be governed by Mexico. Add to this constant persecution, loss of rights in education and work, etc, etc... And then you start getting 1% of the picture.

Now, some spelling corrections:

Lipto ---- Liptó
Hajdú Bihar ---- Hajdú-Bihar
Csik ---- Not incorrect, strictly speaking, but Csík is more commonly used
Tata bánya ---- Tatabánya
Bács Kiskun ---- Bács-Kiskun

Dunantul ---- Dunántúl
Duna-Tisza-Koze ---- Duna-Tisza köze
Tiszantul ---- Tiszántúl
[fixed land bonus] Czechoslovak ---- Czechoslovakia
Can be attack by... ---- Can be attacked by...

Great idea. If I may suggest, Transylvania itself could be an excellent subject for a map, during the Principality Period. Turks, Hapsburgs, Hungarians, Saxons, Szeklers... Anyway, just a suggestion in case you are planning more maps. 2013 will be the 400th anniversary of Prince Bethlen ascending to the throne.
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Re: Magyar [29/4] Version 7 PG 1/3

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:41 am

Solkim, thanks a great deal for the corrections. Here they are on the map apart form the Czechoslovakia one as this is the modern English spelling. I have tried to use the original ones from the time, so a lot of kingdoms and republics on the legend.
Spellings.
Mountains.
Rivers.
Trees.
Legend placement.
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Re: Magyar [29/4] Version 7 PG 1/3

Postby Jatekos on Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:42 pm

A couple of suggestions:
- You could add something to the name of the map because "magyar" in itself means a person, a Hungarian citizen. It is also an adjective (e.g. Hungarian products). Do you you mean Hungary (Magyarország) or do you want to add one or more nouns to the name?
- "Tatabánya" is one word. Because of the hyphenation, you will need to write the name of the region as Tata- bánya (not Tata bánya).
- Also, the words "Tata" "bánya" on the map seem to have a strange grey background, that the other regions do not have. It is almost like the 2 words are underlined.
- Could you make the Kingdom of Croats, Serbs and Slovens a bit more orangish (or yellowish)? To me, it does not seem to be distinct enough from the colour of the other countries.
- I would also suggest to put the girdle of Budapest next to the name of the region to the "Safe land bonus" part of the legend.
- Please update your "ő" letters. You have a region with the name "VerŐce". It should be "Verőce". Same for "Győr".
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Re: Magyar [29/4] Version 7 PG 1/3

Postby ifuh on Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:28 pm

hi, as Játékos wrote very preciously the main legend is not in use like this .
Tatabánya is a city (established in the begining of the 20th century), not a county or region even if they have a pretty large bird there.

as I saw our ... friend's comment ... yess you touched the honey in the middle of the hive :-) and the bees are very very nervous.
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Re: Magyar [29/4] Version 7 PG 1/3

Postby disL on Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:11 pm

Well im native Hungarian and A from history, since I learn it.
The 90% of the map is good, but needs some changes.

The name should be "Magyarország" (Hungary) instead of "Magyar" (Hungarian)

Regions:
Agram is the German name of Zagreb, not another region so please make
Károlyváros instead of Agram
Spis is the slovakian name for Szepes.
so make
Szepes from Spis
and please make
Sáros from the current Szepes. Sáros is the region next to Zemplén
Orava is the slovak name for
ÁRVA so please make Árva from Orava.
Ogulin (in southwest) is just a croatian name for a city, not a region, the name of the region is originally Modrus(-Fiume) so please rename Ogulin to Modrus.
Tatabánya (in the middle) is just a 50 years old town, was never name of a region. The name of the region is for ~1000 years is Fejér, so please rename Tatabánya to Fejér

On the mid-south there are some regions which could easily change their place without problem (if we want to be geographically correct) For help use this map: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UK_e-uVmlzQ/T ... terkep.jpg

If you do the changes, the map will be correct in Hungarian language. Thank you for the map, its really nice.
Greetings,
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Re: Magyar [29/4] Version 7 PG 1/3

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:42 pm

Wow, lots of suggestions and corrections there. Think I got them all in but if I missed any, let me know. Keep them coming.

Version 8
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The new title does not fit in the space as nicely :( so any suggestions now taken for this. ;)
The text at the bottom of the map is now incorrect. Will fix later today.
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Re: Magyar [29/4] Version 7 PG 1/3

Postby Oneyed on Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:38 am

Solkim wrote:Technically, it is true that the Hungarian Nation was broken up, if we take "nation" to mean not "country" but - as it is supposed to be - a political-cultural unity of a certain people.


no. this is only demagogy of people who want "Great Hungary". in Austrian - Hungarian Empire lived many nations, each had its language, culture, history...

ths is definition of nation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation
Solkim wrote:Following this treaty approximately 30% (!) of the ethnically-culturally Hungarian population - or 3.3 million people - ended up outside the new borders, mostly in the north and east. Granted, some of those territories were ethnically mixed and minority Hungarian, but that was more of an excuse for the land grab, considering that many purely Hungarian areas were also annexed. In about a dozen cases the borders even ran through towns, separating familes for decades. In the few mixed towns where referendums were allowed, the decision was always in favor of belonging to Hungary.


do you know history of central europe? do you know that this area was annexed by Hungarians, do you know that all nations lived here before they were later annexed to Hungarian Empire? do you know something about magyarization?
Solkim wrote:To help you with an analogy: imagine that the southern US states are annexed to Mexico, because "it's the just thing to do" considering the large Hispanic population. This would also mean the annexation of millions of Hispanics who have an American rather than a Hispanic identity, and millions of non-Hispanic Americans, who have no desire whatsoever to be governed by Mexico. Add to this constant persecution, loss of rights in education and work, etc, etc... And then you start getting 1% of the picture.


this is very bad example and totaly out of situation in central europe.

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Re: Magyar [29/4] Version 7 PG 1/3

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:06 am

Oneyed wrote:
Solkim wrote:Technically, it is true that the Hungarian Nation was broken up, if we take "nation" to mean not "country" but - as it is supposed to be - a political-cultural unity of a certain people.


no. this is only demagogy of people who want "Great Hungary". in Austrian - Hungarian Empire lived many nations, each had its language, culture, history...

ths is definition of nation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation
Solkim wrote:Following this treaty approximately 30% (!) of the ethnically-culturally Hungarian population - or 3.3 million people - ended up outside the new borders, mostly in the north and east. Granted, some of those territories were ethnically mixed and minority Hungarian, but that was more of an excuse for the land grab, considering that many purely Hungarian areas were also annexed. In about a dozen cases the borders even ran through towns, separating familes for decades. In the few mixed towns where referendums were allowed, the decision was always in favor of belonging to Hungary.


do you know history of central europe? do you know that this area was annexed by Hungarians, do you know that all nations lived here before they were later annexed to Hungarian Empire? do you know something about magyarization?
Solkim wrote:To help you with an analogy: imagine that the southern US states are annexed to Mexico, because "it's the just thing to do" considering the large Hispanic population. This would also mean the annexation of millions of Hispanics who have an American rather than a Hispanic identity, and millions of non-Hispanic Americans, who have no desire whatsoever to be governed by Mexico. Add to this constant persecution, loss of rights in education and work, etc, etc... And then you start getting 1% of the picture.


this is very bad example and totaly out of situation in central europe.

Oneyed

oneyed, borders change over history. What one person may call one thing, others call it another. From the perspective of this map, Hungary includes all of the territory that was lost through the treaty. Rightly or wrongly, these regions once belonged to Hungary. And Hungary as the nation, not the empire. The demographics of the lost territory included lots of nationalities from bordering countries.

This is one of the reasons I sent a PM to the Hungarian nationals on the site, to make sure the territories have the correct names (Hungarian names). Some have, as you see have posted in the thread, while others with no English have sent me PMs. Must get those posted into the thread and translated.

You will aslo note that one of the territ names has reverted back to my original, again this is because it was called that by the Hungarians.
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Re: Magyar [29/4] Version 7 PG 1/3

Postby Oneyed on Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:14 am

koontz1973 wrote:oneyed, borders change over history. What one person may call one thing, others call it another. From the perspective of this map, Hungary includes all of the territory that was lost through the treaty. Rightly or wrongly, these regions once belonged to Hungary. And Hungary as the nation, not the empire. The demographics of the lost territory included lots of nationalities from bordering countries.


no, it was never Hungarian nation in all over empire. Hungarian nation are Hungars - magyars. read ones more definition of nation and you can see that in Hungarian empire lived many nations, not only one Hungarian nation.
koontz1973 wrote:This is one of the reasons I sent a PM to the Hungarian nationals on the site, to make sure the territories have the correct names (Hungarian names). Some have, as you see have posted in the thread, while others with no English have sent me PMs. Must get those posted into the thread and translated.

You will aslo note that one of the territ names has reverted back to my original, again this is because it was called that by the Hungarians.


hm, all countries were independent in this time, so maybe all regions outside Hungary could have names in their language...

and you still have Orava and Spis on the bad place.

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Re: Magyarország [30/4] Version 8 PG 1/3

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:34 am

and you still have Orava and Spis on the bad place.

They are there for one reason, gameplay balance. And now the correct names.

Hungary as a nation/country use to cover a far larger territory than this, and that was not part of the Empire. The territories I have portrayed where before 1920, part of the Kingdom of Hungary.

Sopron which is part of the Austria bonus (awarded to Austria in treaty) voted to go back to Hungary. It is now part of Hungary and has been since 1921.

In the aftermath of World War I, most of Sáros county became part of newly formed Czechoslovakia, as recognized by the concerned states in the 1920 Treaty of Trianon.

What I will do, is on the left side, where the background is, I will put in the Kingdom of Hungary when I talk about annexed lands. That solves your issue completely.
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Re: Magyarország [30/4] Version 8 PG 1/3

Postby Oneyed on Tue May 01, 2012 12:25 am

koontz1973 wrote:They are there for one reason, gameplay balance.


this is about what I talk...

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koontz1973 wrote:Hungary as a nation/country use to cover a far larger territory than this, and that was not part of the Empire. The territories I have portrayed where before 1920, part of the Kingdom of Hungary.


I bet that in Orava was not more as 1% of population Hungars ;). and please make difference between nation and country - Hungars/Hungary.

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Re: Magyarország [30/4] Version 8 PG 1/3

Postby koontz1973 on Tue May 01, 2012 12:53 am

Oneyed, what you propose allows anyone who drops Lipto easy access to the bonus and a one border defence point. Not a good idea at all in the small games.
mapmakers handbook wrote:So important it's on the list twice! Expect to show some flexibility and be prepared to move away from complete geographical accuracy or historical authenticity: the look and theme of the map must be utterly subservient to gameplay and legibility.


The names are correct for the time period so they stay.

Orawa county had 2% Hungarians. 13% where Hungarian national in Sáros county. It makes no difference if Orawa or Sáros had 1% or 100% Hungarian nationals living there. It was part of the kingdom as recognised by the powers of the time.

And I know the difference between the country, kingdom and empire. The country is portrayed correctly in the middle of the map. The kingdom is portrayed as the map and the empire was larger still.
Hungars= Not a word as recognised by my wife. Huns is the name given to the people who populated the region. Now more commonly called Hungarians.
Hungary = Country
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Re: Magyarország [30/4] Version 8 PG 1/3

Postby Jatekos on Tue May 01, 2012 4:30 pm

Thanks for the quick updates.
I think you have only missed this one from my list:
- Please update your "ő" letters. You have a region with the name "VerŐce". It should be "Verőce". Same for "Győr".
You are either using a font type that cannot correctly display this letter or it is in a different font type from the others. It is quite strange, although it is not a huge bug.

2 more things that came to my mind:
- The name of Hungary should start with a capital "H", not with a "h" in the title of the map.
- Thanks for updating the colour of the Kingdom of Croats, Serbs and Slovens - it is much better now! You will need to reflect this change on the legend, too. You may need to check other zones as well, as not all seem to have the exact same colour on the main map and on the legend.
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Re: Magyarország [30/4] Version 8 PG 1/3

Postby koontz1973 on Tue May 01, 2012 10:32 pm

No problem Jatekos, about the " ő ", it is on the map, but the size of letter and font type does not display it well. Will change the font a little later down the road. This font is purely there for game play and mock up design.
Hungary is not on next update. Just kept Magyarország as the title.
Mini map is updated for the next update as well. Just wanted to be sure of the colour before changing the little bits.

Will post the new image later today as back to work I go. :(

Over the weekend, I will post a version with different fonts. Come and look at let me know what you like. O:)
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Re: Magyarország [30/4] V8 PG 1/3 Text options Pg 4

Postby koontz1973 on Wed May 02, 2012 10:36 am

Here are some options for the territ font. Which one is good/bad. Happy to use any of them.

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Re: Magyarország [30/4] V8 PG 1/3 Text options Pg 4

Postby nolefan5311 on Wed May 02, 2012 12:13 pm

I prefer the Fejer font.
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Re: Magyarország [30/4] V8 PG 1/3 Text options Pg 4

Postby Victor Sullivan on Thu May 03, 2012 7:55 pm

I agree, Fejér is the best of those, given the map style, but I'm satisfied with the current font, myself.

Anywho, I know I'm coming in a bit late, but I thought I'd pop in with a couple things:
  • "Czechoslovakia Republic" should be "Czechoslovak Republic" or "The Republic of Czechoslovakia".
  • The small bonus areas, Poland, Austria, Italy - given the focus of the map (Hungary and its re-expansion), these should be valued at less than normal, so they don't steal the spotlight in gameplay. Italy could easily be reduced to zero, Poland could go either zero or +1, and Austria could go to +1.
  • On a similar note, the gameplay framework set up is more gimmicky than anything, as none of those 'consolidated' "Hungary and..." bonuses are going to come into play until someone has the game all wrapped up anyway. I wonder if you could rework it a bit to make it less gimmicky and more foundational as a strategy. For example, you could have it so that you need Budapest and X amount of Hungarian territories to rack up bonuses from the regions outside of Hungary. Something to seriously think about, IMO.
  • Lastly, I think Hungary needs a more well-defined color, or a well-defined font to separate it more from the other bonus regions, as I think they are too similar to bonus areas like Austria and Romania.
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Re: Magyarország [30/4] V8 PG 1/3 Text options Pg 4

Postby koontz1973 on Thu May 03, 2012 10:24 pm

Good ideas Sully, the only one that I will think may not work are the zero bonuses. What about one having the consolidated bonus to be hold a region of Hungary and the x amount of territs in a country.
So hold east Hungary and 5 Romania territs for +8
Had Czechoslovak Republic but was told it was wrong. I thought it was right so will bung it back in.
Will have a think about colours.
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Re: Magyarország [30/4] V8 PG 1/3 Text options Pg 4

Postby koontz1973 on Fri May 04, 2012 1:30 am

Been thinking about the consolidated bonuses for a while and Sully prompted me to post.
Lots has changed (to much to post and remember).
Hope you like them.
The text that I liked (Fejer) did not work well in the small map version so have gone with this one.
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Re: Magyarország [4/5] V9 PG 1/4

Postby Jatekos on Fri May 04, 2012 6:09 pm

Well done so far.

A few more minor suggestions:
- We refer to the regions of Hungary as Dunántúl, Duna-Tisza köze, Tiszántúl. "Hungary" is not part of these region names, it is not necessary to indicate it as e.g. "Dunántúl Hungary" on the legend. Especially that now only Hungary and 2 regions of Poland have green background. If you still think that there is a need for the word "Hungary" on this part of the legend, then you could update the title from Safe Land Bonus to Safe Land Bonus in Hungary, or something similar.
- On a related note, I think it would make sense if Poland had a different colour, other than green.
- I could be mistaken, but I think that if you refer to more than one bonus on the legend, then you would need the plural form (bonuses). If you implement my first suggestion above then you will have more space for the longer names.
- One of the Hungarian regions is not a county like the rest, but a city: I would suggest to replace Debrecen with another name.
Szabolcs-Szatmár-Bereg and Hajdú-Bihar more or less lay on the indicated area (you could shorten the first, if needed).
http://www.mfa.gov.ua/hungary/hun/2458.htm
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Re: Magyarország [4/5] V9 PG 1/4

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri May 04, 2012 6:13 pm

I'm liking this map, but I have one teeny suggestion: In the story where it says Hungarian nation, you should say Kingdom of Hungary as it was the political state of the Kingdom of Hungary ( the state) which was partitioned whereas the people (the nation) remained unbroken up, though those living in the conquered areas of the Kingdom likely had to return to the new state of Hungary.
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Re: Magyarország [4/5] V9 PG 1/4

Postby koontz1973 on Fri May 04, 2012 11:30 pm

Jatekos, changed names but am gong to keep the Hungary in the legend. This should make it easier for the players from outside the borders to see where we are. :roll: Changed Poland to a blue, but also tweaked the other colours as they where not colour blind friendly. Better to get it done know than later. ;)

Industrial Helix, glad to see you around, and very happy you like it. :D Kingdom of Hungary is in story now. :-s Added the displacement figure of over 3 million as it was 3.3 million. Out of those 3.3 million, only around 350 thousand returned. The rest stayed as it was there home. Some displaced parts returned to Hungary after votes (Sopron), while others went through forced nationalism (Czechoslovakia/Romania).
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Re: Magyarország [4/5] V9 PG 1/4

Postby Jatekos on Sun May 06, 2012 7:08 am

koontz1973 wrote:Jatekos, changed names but am gong to keep the Hungary in the legend. This should make it easier for the players from outside the borders to see where we are. :roll:

Thanks Koontz for updating Debrecen.

Regarding the other name changes I am not sure if I was clear enough. I do not want to delete all references of "Hungary" from the legend. I was only suggesting to refer to Tiszántúl, Dunántúl and Duna-Tisza köze instead of Tiszántúl Hungary, Dunántúl Hungary and Duna-Tisza köze Hungary, as their location is pretty self-explanatory from the legend anyway, because Hungary is the only green country now. I do not think that only native Hungarians could identify the location of e.g. "Tiszántúl" if they spent 2 seconds looking at the legend.

Also, Dunántúl, Duna-Tisza köze and Tiszántúl literally mean the area West of the Danube, the area between the Danube and the Tisza and the East of Tisza, respectively. I understand that you want to make it clear that these 3 zones belong to Hungary, but creating zone names that are half Hungarian - half English is quite strange. Are you sure that the colouring is not enough? How about adding "Hungary" to the title of this part of the legend e.g. "Saved Land Bonus (Hungary)" or "Saved Land Bonus in Hungary", if necessary?
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