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Re: Greek Games [14/5] V3. Pg1.

Postby chapcrap on Thu May 17, 2012 5:13 pm

koontz1973 wrote:I do not think so for this one, but if it makes it through, a second level can be created with the extra positions. Always liked the way DoD L1 cried out or a second level. I see no reason to do it now just for the sake of something that might come about.

As cairnswk says though, maps are being made for this. ;)

I was mostly joking. Maybe 97%. But, we do need some 12 player maps, so that lack will give us 12 player games!!
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Re: Greek Games [14/5] V3. Pg1.

Postby ViperOverLord on Fri May 18, 2012 1:35 am

Been giving it some thought. The problem with lose sides/trap and lose the game idea it's going to ruin game continuity. As soon as someone gets a dead warrior bonus; the other player gets desperate. If he gets desperate and breaks through and he breaks the bonus then good. But then he has to have enough in the tank to defend and he often won't and then a ton of games are just going to abruptly end and it will be anti climatic. And even if he defends it, the entire game then just becomes about preserving the trap and not the other cool stuff on the map.

And then if you change it so that the trap doesn't lose the player the game, the term "trap" could be misleading. B/C a player could intentionally want to lose one end for a reset to get locked into taking a dead warrior bonus that much easier. Perhaps, rename them gauntlets and have them reset. I know it's not quite what you envisioned. But I think it may be more practical.
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Re: Greek Games [18/5] V4. Pg2.

Postby koontz1973 on Fri May 18, 2012 1:29 pm

Gone are the losing condition traps. Now a normal killer neutral.
Added weapons with a progressive bonus.
Added food and drink tied to the weapons.
Added Hades for a whopping bonus jump.
Click image to enlarge.
image


Discuss.
Should the slave entrances be one way and have hades be the only kill spot. Like the south pole in Antarctica :-s or go the Feudal route? O:)
Placement of swords and food terits. These are just the initial placements and will need to be moved. :|
Neutral values. I like the one for normal but can change for any of the others.
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Re: Greek Games [18/5] V4. Pg2.

Postby nebsmith on Fri May 18, 2012 2:35 pm

I'd say go the Feudal route.
But you could have hades Bombarding some regions either
  1. Everywhere except the slave entrances
  2. All normal squares
  3. Just the slave entrances
  4. The monsters
  5. The food
  6. The traps - to get yourself off them
    see why below
  7. some combination of the above

You have the traps as killer neutrals now.
How about instead of that they give negative life points - as a trap would and maybe a decay on the trap as well. The reason to bombard yourself off a trap.

I think the +3 for dead warriors with a neutral 2 may be to much - maybe cut the bonus to +2

I really like the Hades double bonus idea, it should provoke a rush to the centre.
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Re: Greek Games [18/5] V4. Pg2.

Postby chapcrap on Fri May 18, 2012 7:05 pm

nebsmith wrote:You have the traps as killer neutrals now.
How about instead of that they give negative life points - as a trap would and maybe a decay on the trap as well. The reason to bombard yourself off a trap.

How does someone bombard themself? Also, the +3 for the dead warrior is for holding 4 terts. That bonus is fine.

Are you saying that having a trap or Medusa makes it so that you get 0 troops to deploy? That's an awful idea if so. Actually, I just re-read it and realize that's not what you mean. I think using the phrase 'Life Points' is getting confusing. I get what you're trying to do there, but it's not the common terminology.

I would give +1 troop for every food and 2 weapons I think.

As far as Antarctica vs Feudal... Either way is fine with me. How about both ways? The center can bombard AND you can attack them like Feudal.
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Re: Greek Games [19/5] V4.1. Pg2.

Postby koontz1973 on Fri May 18, 2012 10:53 pm

Thanks guys, here is the image with some of your ideas added.
Click image to enlarge.
image


But you could have hades Bombarding some regions either

Everywhere except the slave entrances
All normal squares
Just the slave entrances
The monsters
The food
The traps - to get yourself off them
see why below
some combination of the above

The others gave him to much power.
instead of that they give negative life point

added as well
Hades double bonus idea

kept it. ;)
would give +1 troop for every food and 2 weapons

sorted.
As far as Antarctica vs Feudal... Either way is fine with me. How about both ways? The center can bombard AND you can attack them like Feudal.

added as well.
phrase 'Life Points' is getting confusing.

removed.
+3 for the dead warrior

agreed and kept.
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Re: Greek Games [19/5] V4.1. Pg2.

Postby koontz1973 on Fri May 18, 2012 10:56 pm

With the moving around of things in the legend, I now have room for one more symbol. Any ideas of what this could/should be and its effects?

Weapons and food. These will need to be moved (I think) so have a look and see which ones should be moved and to where.
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Re: Greek Games [19/5] V4.1. Pg2.

Postby nebsmith on Sat May 19, 2012 9:28 am

For another symbol how about Pegasus, one on each side of the map which are linked and so give a way to jump from one side to the other, on rows N and A.

I am not sure that you need to move anything maybe add another food at MV.

you are right chapcrap you can't bombard yourself :oops: late night.
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Re: Greek Games [19/5] V4.1. Pg2.

Postby koontz1973 on Sat May 19, 2012 12:03 pm

how about Pegasus

love it, hope you do to. ;)
[bigimg] :oops: [/bigimg]
EDIT:refined the placement of pegasus to a north south approach. Much better now.
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Re: Greek Games [20/5] V5 Pg2.

Postby chapcrap on Sun May 20, 2012 12:01 am

I'm liking the setup a lot right now.
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Re: Greek Games [20/5] V5 Pg2.

Postby army of nobunaga on Sun May 20, 2012 12:21 am

Unless I am incorrectly reading this, landing a corner starting area is going to be a huge +
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Re: Greek Games [20/5] V5 Pg2.

Postby koontz1973 on Sun May 20, 2012 12:42 am

army of nobunaga wrote:Unless I am incorrectly reading this, landing a corner starting area is going to be a huge +


It will and wont be. For any game of less than 4 players, each one will start at the corner so any advantage is negated.

For any game over 4 players, the neutrals can be adjusted to allow some semblance of safety. So K3 neutral can go higher to provide a block. So the starting positions in that corner (J1,N1) can attack each other but not straight away. N1 can go for the dead warriors while J1 will go for the sirens.

Have a think about the neutral values and let me know what you think is good and where.

But when you consider that from a corner, you have a more limited style of attack as well. Meaning, that in a corner, you only have one way to go. ;)

The +2 auto deploy should also stop players going straight for the slave entrances.

I was thinking of having the slaves start at 3 troops, so with the +2, you get 5 to go forward with.
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Re: Greek Games [20/5] V5 Pg2.

Postby nebsmith on Sun May 20, 2012 1:52 pm

If you up the neutrals on the dead warriors that will help keep the slave entrances apart for a while.
Putting up K3/T3 & K14/D14 would work too.
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Re: Greek Games [20/5] V5 Pg2.

Postby koontz1973 on Mon May 21, 2012 3:00 am

I believe I found a solution to the corner territs being stronger. Added 2 more of the Pegasus territs, which can attack in a clockwise direction only. This gives the corner entrances less strength as now two can attack them.
Changed the weapons and food bonuses, is this a wise idea or should I go back to the original idea?
Click image to enlarge.
image


To Do list.
Look at placement of weapons.
Placement of traps.
Placement of food.
Neutral values.

nebsmith wrote:If you up the neutrals on the dead warriors that will help keep the slave entrances apart for a while.
Putting up K3/T3 & K14/D14 would work too.

Upping the neutrals on the dead warriors would also mean an increase of bonus. Thus, first one with good dice, gets one and has an advantage.
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Re: Greek Games [20/5] V5 Pg2.

Postby nebsmith on Mon May 21, 2012 9:37 am

With the weapons bombarding I think you should change the symbol to spears.
Also remove I3 and E14 as they would give an advantage to the 2 nearby slave traps.
maybe replace them with food and add 3 more food on A3, N3 & N16

get rid of the food on M5 and replace it with a weapon.

Put 2 more food at I7 and F10

I like the idea of the weapons bombarding but I see a problem with the regions near corner slave entrances being more vulnerable and it is hard to see where they could be placed to bombard around the centre entrances in the same way.

How about
go back to the earlier bonus for swords.
have a territory 2 away from each entrance that is both swords and food - A14 for example

Have other swords at L5, L12, C5 C12 & L7, F7, C10, H10

drop the food on M5
Other food at A9, C8, K9, N8


Or
go back to the earlier bonus for swords.
have a territory 2 away from each entrance that is both swords and food - A14 for example

Have other swords at L5, L12, C5 C12
Have ranged weapons at L7, F7, C10, H10

drop the food on M5

Other food at A9, C8, K9, N8
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Re: Greek Games [20/5] V5 Pg2.

Postby koontz1973 on Mon May 21, 2012 10:04 am

nebsmith, thanks, that is a great help, but I think I got slightly confused so if I have this wrong, let me know. Each starting position now has a food within two territs and all 8 now have to go the same distance for the three (for a bonus).

Swords will be changed to spears (next update) and have reduced there range to 3. Is that wise? I have left a slight disparity between the starting territs and the swords. This will give a clue to players in fog games and stop the starting positions being completely the same. It might force players to change tactics depending on there start.
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Re: Greek Games [21/5] V5 P3

Postby nebsmith on Tue May 22, 2012 10:34 am

Almost what I had in mind.

The food near the Starting positions would also have a sword on the same territory.

Swords on B4 and L12 would be removed

The 4 central swords and the other food stay as they are.

The bonuses would be for holding 3 swords or 3 food

Spears with a range of 3 or 4 at D8 and K9
That way up to six different players could hold a food or sword bonus.

But maybe your idea of a deliberate disparity in starting positions is a better one. But I don't think you can have bombard weapons close to only 2 start points. So I think if you go with the disparity it should be along with the bonus for holding 3 swords
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Re: Greek Games [21/5] V5 P3

Postby koontz1973 on Tue May 22, 2012 1:19 pm

Taken the swords and moved them. But not onto the same squares as the food. This might cause some confusion later but it can be adjusted if it is OK. But each SP now has food and weapon. I changed the weapons to +3 for 5 held and the food stays at +1 for 3 held. The spears are where you said with a range of 3. This sounds good at it allows to hit over the long walls. Should be fun in fog games.

Click image to enlarge.
image


I am thinking of changing the sirens. Remove the 2 central dead warriors and have these 2 areas for them. Have them, with only a 1 neutral for the 4 squares but the bonus would be only 2. Then where I have them now, put in another trap. Any one like this idea?
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Re: Greek Games [22/5] V6 P3

Postby nebsmith on Tue May 22, 2012 5:00 pm

That could work, I think it provides a better balance with the Sirens moved to the central Dead warriors

but with the neutrals at only 1 the traps on H6 & G9 would have to be quite big to slow down the route to Hades for the centre start points.
Have you dropped the idea of losing conditions for some of the traps because you could use them H6 & G9

You would need to replace the Sirens with a large neutral to keep the middle starting points apart too.

Actually what would work is keep the sirens where they are but have it so you cannot attack from a Siren - the Allure. Maybe you could keep the sirens as the extra bonus for the centre starts would balance the extra movement form Pegasus for the corner starts.

Have you considered having an Auto-deploy on the Spears ?
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Re: Greek Games [22/5] V6 P3

Postby chapcrap on Tue May 22, 2012 5:51 pm

So many components. Every time there is an update, my head gets blown.
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Re: Greek Games [22/5] V6 P3

Postby nolefan5311 on Tue May 22, 2012 10:57 pm

chapcrap wrote:So many components. Every time there is an update, my head gets blown.


Agreed. However, it does appear this is close to the Stamp so I will go ahead and get it stickied.
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Re: Greek Games [22/5] V6 P3

Postby koontz1973 on Tue May 22, 2012 11:05 pm

nebsmith, you are right, lowering the neutrals for the new sirens would allow the centre to have easier access to Hades. Kept the dead warriors. I like the idea of the sirens not being able to attack though and is in. Auto deploy for the spears would make them too powerful IMO so it is left out. If more want it then it can go in but I would suggest it as a one only and then also add two more. Not dropped the idea of a losing condition trap, but have not found a way to make it work yet. Symbol and wording for the legend makes this one a lot harder to fit in.

chapcrap, I hope that is a nice way to say you like.

Thanks nole for the sticky.

I think the components for this one are pretty much finalised now. Anything new can go onto level 2. ;)
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Lets have a look at numbers. Neutrals, starting troop amount, reinforcements.

Impassable walls. Remove any of the blocks? Keep thinking of removing (D7/10)(K7/10)(F&I 5)(F&I 12.Not sure if this would make it to open but it is worth thinking about.

Graphics, hope you like the new sirens. :D I think I am in love. :-^
Anything you lot want changed, better to tell me now than in final forge. :P
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Re: Greek Games [22/5] V6 P3

Postby nolefan5311 on Tue May 22, 2012 11:19 pm

Perhaps you can make the Pegasus border the Sirens? Starting on the J or Epsilon starting positions could be a pretty big advantage being closer to more possible bonuses, so I think you either need to make them more accessible from the corner points, or perhaps give some sort of bonus for the Pegasus.

What does "Medusa gaze turns all to stone" mean? That troops that are positioned there are stuck there?

I also think there are too many trap doors positioned in the Alpha and Pi rows. Maybe move them more towards the center of the map. It seems to be another disadvantage for the starting corner positions.

As far as impassables, I think it would be a little more cool to remove them from C6 /C11 and L6/L11 to add another path, instead of adding to the cluster already there.

As far as bonuses, I think because the map is small and there's a ton of bonus potential, it might be worth thinking about getting rid of the region bonus. Just an idea, I don't know how you feel about that.
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Re: Greek Games [23/5] V7 P3

Postby koontz1973 on Tue May 22, 2012 11:28 pm

With pegasus bordering the sirens, how about removing the wall at H3 and G14. Put a pegasus into those two territs so only one from the centre SP have easy access to it. Again, this adds a little disparity to the SP which is not always a bad thing.

Medusa gaze turns all to stone = killer neutral. Tried to keep the wording within the realms of the world. Any ideas?

A8 + N9 traps, move them to? or just remove them.

C6 /C11 and L6/L11 Will remove these, good idea.

I like region bonuses as it will not kill of a player when he is hit by hades. But if it is not wanted, out it will come.
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Re: Greek Games [23/5] V7 P3

Postby nolefan5311 on Wed May 23, 2012 9:41 am

koontz1973 wrote:With pegasus bordering the sirens, how about removing the wall at H3 and G14. Put a pegasus into those two territs so only one from the centre SP have easy access to it. Again, this adds a little disparity to the SP which is not always a bad thing.


Hmm. I don't know if that really solves the problem I was envisioning, as adding another bonus to the center of the map only increases the possible bonuses for the center start positions. As is, I think the corner start positions are at a disadvantage, both bonus wise and the positioning of some of the trap doors (more on that below).

koontz1973 wrote:Medusa gaze turns all to stone = killer neutral. Tried to keep the wording within the realms of the world. Any ideas?


Hmm. I think you sort of need to be explicit in that it's a killer neutral. Or perhaps you don't make it a killer neutral. As is, having to kill 4 men to receive a +2 bonus and then it being a killer neutral, I don't know if anyone would bother taking it as they could only collect once then would be forced to take out 4 more neutrals.

koontz1973 wrote:A8 + N9 traps, move them to? or just remove them.


I was thinking more about moving the Pi IV and Pi XIII and A IV and A XIII more to the center of the map. Perhaps move them to Epsilon V and XII and J V and XII so that each player has to cross at least one of them to get to Hades. The positioning of most of them has me confused, and I'm not sure how integral you want them to be in the gameplay.

koontz1973 wrote:I like region bonuses as it will not kill of a player when he is hit by hades. But if it is not wanted, out it will come.


This is completely up to you, I was just throwing it out there. You make a good point though.
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