Classic Cities: Madrid [Quenched]

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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:26 pm

This is playing not as I expected for 1v1 games. So far today in my games alone, I have dropped 3 bonuses, and even captured the whole of the centro region by taking one territ. In 1v1 games, players only have 6 regions and it is being decided by end of round 1.

Ideas to give a better game or is this what should be expected by a map of this size?
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby nolefan5311 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:29 pm

koontz1973 wrote:This is playing not as I expected for 1v1 games. So far today in my games alone, I have dropped 3 bonuses, and even captured the whole of the centro region by taking one territ. In 1v1 games, players only have 6 regions and it is being decided by end of round 1.

Ideas to give a better game or is this what should be expected by a map of this size?


I thought you addressed this specifically by the starting positions? Can you link some game numbers?
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:41 pm

Game 12384170
Game 12384173

2 games with bonuses dropped. With the xml, 8 positions with a max of one given out and an underlying neutral of 2. This should of put the odds of a drop outside of the need to change range. But I have not played that many games today and it needs to change now. Only option I have to to code in neutrals which I hate so the question, ideas anyone?
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby nolefan5311 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:13 pm

I proposed in a game we just played that perhaps just lower all the 3 and 2 region bonuses to +1's.

What is the community's thoughts on that?
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:22 pm

Nole, agreed, will get maps and xml done first thing in the morning but will check here first to see if anyone has had any bright ideas.
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby ManBungalow on Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:55 pm

The green stuff in the background isn't complementary to the red/green troop numbers.
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby ManBungalow on Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:55 pm

Also, I dropped a bonus.
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby macbone on Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:56 pm

Hey, koontz, I started a 6-player Term game on Madrid today.

I like the map, but it looks a little cluttered.

None of us dropped bonuses, though. =)
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:16 am

ManBungalow wrote:The green stuff in the background isn't complementary to the red/green troop numbers.

Already noted in a game played. Being sorted now.
macbone wrote:Hey, koontz, I started a 6-player Term game on Madrid today.

I like the map, but it looks a little cluttered.

None of us dropped bonuses, though. =)

Glad you like it but cluttered is what you get. It is a city after all. ;)
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:56 am

Maps and xml.
All bonuses are now 1 apart from the two large ones. They stay. Neutrals that underlined the starting positions have been raised to a 3. Background green now lighter to allow green to be seen better. Will look into these issues later again when new files uploaded.
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Madrid3.xml
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [20/2]

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:14 am

I suggest to use army circles for this map.

About the bonus issue, let me look into it. I'll post a proposal asap. ;)

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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [20/2]

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:56 am

I'll give you a better explanation this evening, but the issue with this map imo are exactly the starting positions. Change the bonuses does nothing since if you drop it you still have an advantage.
In a 1vs1 game, if you're lucky enough to receive a 3 regions bonus sp at the drop (and it's not so hard on this map) you have a too high percentage to start with the whole bonus.

So, or you set at least 2 sp for all the 3 regions bonuses or you have to get rid of them at all.

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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [20/2]

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:03 am

So keep the bonuses as they where. Might just be better remove all starting positions and to place a neutral into each bonus region (2/3 territs) and be done with it.
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [20/2]

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:21 am

nobodies, going to keep the new bonuses. The size of map, given that a 2 bonus can be grabbed early, keeping it at a 1 might allow the game to go longer. Not sure on the army circles though, already been accused of making this one over the top.
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/2365/madridnew.png
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/7128/madridsmall.png
Madrid3.xml
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [20/2]

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:27 am

Sorry but what does that change solves? changing the bonus you did nothing else that make the values ridicolous...no one will go for a bonus anymore in bigger games.
Sorry but i don't think this is a solution, maybe the easier way to go to have longer games, but definitively not a solution. You still have a map on which a player could start with an advantage.

A question did you run the prob tools and looked at the percentages? I have too, but as said I don't think they are bad without sp with 3 regions bonuses.
The only issue without sp is to not make possible to start with the 2 region bonus.
Gimme some hours....it's not hard to balance the drop without change the bonuses, I'll post my proposal this evening, then if you want to lower the bonuses anyway...then it's you map and I'll send the update. But i'm sure we can balance the drop without making the value of a 3 region+3 borders only +1. Com'on, you know that's a nonsense! :P

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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [20/2]

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:19 am

Will wait for your advice and follow.
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [20/2]

Postby nolefan5311 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:38 am

thenobodies80 wrote:Sorry but what does that change solves? changing the bonus you did nothing else that make the values ridicolous...no one will go for a bonus anymore in bigger games.
Sorry but i don't think this is a solution, maybe the easier way to go to have longer games, but definitively not a solution. You still have a map on which a player could start with an advantage.

A question did you run the prob tools and looked at the percentages? I have too, but as said I don't think they are bad without sp with 3 regions bonuses.
The only issue without sp is to not make possible to start with the 2 region bonus.
Gimme some hours....it's not hard to balance the drop without change the bonuses, I'll post my proposal this evening, then if you want to lower the bonuses anyway...then it's you map and I'll send the update. But i'm sure we can balance the drop without making the value of a 3 region+3 borders only +1. Com'on, you know that's a nonsense! :P


The likelihood of people grabbing bonuses at all on a map this size is already relatively small. And the issue isn't only with the 2 region bonus...there is a 5.5% chance someone drops one of the 3 region bonuses as well. Ideally, we code 1 region in each of the 2 and 3 region bonus zones to start neutral, but then we're dealing with the issue of a map that distributes 19 territories to begin the game, meaning in 7 and 8 player games, each players gets 2 territories (with 10 and 8 neutrals, respectively). This is more worrisome, to me, then someone only getting a +1 for a 3 region bonus zone.

If only 1 territory is coded as a starting neutral, then that leaves 23 territories to be distributed, which still means players will only get 2 regions in 8 player games, so I think we need to leave all 24 territories in the pot.

Another option koontz is to reduce the deployment from 3 to 2, but I'm not sure that's something you want to do.

Or, and this is going to require a major graphics overhaul, just combine the smaller bonus zones into larger ones (at least 4 regions per bonus).
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [20/2]

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:33 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:there is a 5.5% chance someone drops one of the 3 region bonuses as well

I'm tired, but if i'm not wrong, with starting position, as it is now, the percentage is much much higher than that number.

Anyway, the point is not balance the map considering if the majority of skilled/high rank players will go for bonuses or not, the point is balance the map and ensure that no one will start with an advantage. The game has rules and some basic ideas behind it, one of this is to not give advantage to a player from the start, or reduce it as much as possible.

nolefan5311 wrote:This is more worrisome, to me, then someone only getting a +1 for a 3 region bonus zone.

Instead you should because in your first turn you won't receive only a +1 bonus but you will have also a different percentage with your dice outcome, in theory you will be able to attack 7vs3 instead of 6vs3, that means 0.85 instead of 0.76, or again be able to do a double 5vs3 (that should be around 0.60-0.65)

This is what I would do if it was my map:
Get rid of starting positions, code 1 region of the norte bonus as neutral, leaving 23 regions in the starting pot. This will make impossible to start with that bonus and gives a 3-4% that someone will start with a 3 regions bonus that is a very good value.

There's nothing wrong in having a 8 player game in which player will start with 2 regions with a total of 8 neutrals, we have set a minimum long long time ago and it is 2 regions for each player. I stick with it because it works, specially if it means to not give adavantage to someone else from the very beginning.
24 regions is a small map, if a player want to start with a bigger amount of regions, then we have 200+ maps to play and some of them fit those settings.

We should start to give the priority to smaller games than bigger ones, this site recently lack of games that fill fast and are ready to play and this is a fact ....there're tons of quad or large games done just to grab points.
However this doesn't mean we need to ignore 8 players games, just we don't have to consider a map on which players have to start with 2 regions a wrong thing...sorry but i will ever give the priority to 1vs1 games who are the most played games on this site (6437141 on 10533081 --> 61%)

So, if have 23 regions means 8 player games with just two regions (and only for 8 player games) but balanced games for all the other setting, then I strongly suggest to have just 1 coded neutral, without change graphics or make larger bonus zones.
Then just for the record, this layout gives the worst percentages with 3 players games, that is about 5-6% that imo is acceptable for a 3 player game.

Obviously this layout doesn't allow to add starting position again because they will give a very bad layout for 8 players games, 1 region for each player, that is a nonsense.

Up to you koontz, but keep in mind the priorities in this exact order:
1.Make it balanced
2.limit the starting advantage
3.have less neutral as possible

Time for dinner!
Let me know what you want to do, so i can send the files. ;)
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [20/2]

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:51 am

nobodies, will follow your advice and get you the files to upload today. Will make the map bonuses as they where and remove starting positions. Just one coded neutral in the 2 region bonus zone.

Thanks for that and hope dinner was good.
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [20/2]

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:57 am

All files.
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2365/madridnew.png
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7128/madridsmall.png
Madrid2.xml
(9.2 KiB) Downloaded 31 times

Bonuses stay as they are with the original map.
All starting positions have been removed.
Neutral 3 in the 2 territ bonus zone.
Going to keep the army circles of the map for now. Will see if the lighter background green helps first.
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [22/2]

Postby nolefan5311 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:09 am

I absolutely hate 2 regions for players in 8 player games. Players can be eliminated before they even have a chance to play...I don't think koontz intended this map to play like Doodle Earth or Luxembourg.
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [22/2]

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:23 am

As for the 8 player games only getting 2 regions a piece. That is not really a concern for me on this map even though I tried to allow those games to be fairly devised. Anyone who players Lux or Doodle (8 players) is asking for a specific type of game (or random). Whilst nole is right in the sense an 8 player game, players will lose before a turn is taken, the chances is slightly less on this map. Both Doodle and Lux have less territs so everyone is sitting on top of each other. Here with the extra neutrals, space to move about is guaranteed.

Right now, my main concern is this, will the coded neutral mean that the extra troop in 2 and 3 player games mean more bonuses dropped?

Final thought to leave you with, if the large game is such a problem with this small map, can we limit the amount of players on the map? Either 6 like AOR or just a straight forward 1v1 map only.
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [22/2]

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:37 am

koontz1973 wrote:Right now, my main concern is this, will the coded neutral mean that the extra troop in 2 and 3 player games mean more bonuses dropped?


Could you please rephrase the question? O:)

koontz1973 wrote:Final thought to leave you with, if the large game is such a problem with this small map, can we limit the amount of players on the map? Either 6 like AOR or just a straight forward 1v1 map only.


I've always been in favour of this. If it was for me we would have maps developed for specific type of games and number of players. for types of games we have to wait but for limit the number of players, it think it can be done, but don't take it as an official answer for now. ;)


Note: Luxembourg and Doodle are respectively the 5th and 2nd most played maps on this site....maybe there's a reason? As I said, there's more people who want fast games than people who want to spend 3 hours to make a move. Then, if in a 8 player games you lose before to play....sometimes it happens, it happened also to me and I'm still alive. :mrgreen:
Afterall with 8 players, just one will win..i don't understand this thing that people should wait 2 or 3 turns before to kill someone else...war it's war! No mercy. :twisted:

(clans and their double/triple/quad games :roll: )

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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [22/2]

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:43 am

thenobodies80 wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:Right now, my main concern is this, will the coded neutral mean that the extra troop in 2 and 3 player games mean more bonuses dropped?


Could you please rephrase the question? O:)

OK :)
Now, in 2 and 3 player games, a player gets 6 regions only spread over the board. With the new single neutral, the numbers work out as such:
2 players - 7 regions
3 players - 7 regions
4 players - 5 regions
5 players - 4 regions
6 players - 3 regions
7 players - 3 regions
8 players - 2 regions

With 7 regions being dropped in the small games, will the 3 region bonuses become dropped more or less so as each player has that one extra troop dropped.
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [22/2]

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:02 pm

It depends which SP were dropped with the old system, but in general now are better because now it's receive 3 regions on 23

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