Vertex/Austrum [Quenched]

[nolefan5311]

I agree, these look great.

koontz, if they're not already there (I haven't checked) can you post an image in the first post of which regions start neutral and what they start as?

Also, some of the text in the corner circles are a little hard to read. I really like the font, but it's hard to read for me. Also, for Austrem, I think the winning condition needs to be changed since its tough to tell which ships are Exploratorum (only the ones in the upper right sea?), and which ones aren't.

[koontz1973]

Looking good so far, I'll have to give these maps a better look over soon.


--Andy

Thanks Andy.

I agree, these look great.

koontz, if they're not already there (I haven't checked) can you post an image in the first post of which regions start neutral and what they start as?

Also, some of the text in the corner circles are a little hard to read. I really like the font, but it's hard to read for me. Also, for Austrem, I think the winning condition needs to be changed since its tough to tell which ships are Exploratorum (only the ones in the upper right sea?), and which ones aren't.

Will post the Austrum map with neutrals later today. Vertex already has it (ignore the ones on the outside as they are just my workings for positions) Will post Vertex also.
Can change the text (I take it you mean the green text on the red/blue circle).
Exploratorum = all ships. Would it not be better to remove the text on the outside as it is no longer needed for the bonuses now that the territs have names. Only ones to stay would be the blue ones in the middle as they are needed to show the decays.

Going to remove the green text altogether. Just had an idea that might just work. If it does not, I will keep it but in a different form.

EDIT: Tried to put a poem around the edges. Like the bonus text it was hard to read and not practical. Why have a map with few words only to add more onto it. Here are both maps, removed the text in the edges as it was hard to read. Added a 30% white glow under the territ text to lift it up a tad. These will go into GP sections as well as they show current neutral values.
Vertex

Click image to enlarge.

Austrum
Austrum has positions in place. All ships and the centre island will be part of the positions with an underlying 3 neutral (explained in first post GP section).

Click image to enlarge.

[DoomYoshi]

Misc. Thoughts

Vertex:
15 territories is too many for a victory condition. An 8-player No Spoils would never finish.

Austrum
Baird sucks too much to be a starting point. Also, having killer starting positions is an extremely controversial decision... I figured we would no longer do that after the "Dust Bowl Dust Up".

Both:
The positions don't correlate to each other very well. In Vertex Rho and Cos are adjacent, but in Austrum, they are quite seperate. I was assuming this is too poles of the same world, is this not the case?

[koontz1973]

Misc. Thoughts

Vertex:
15 territories is too many for a victory condition. An 8-player No Spoils would never finish.

It would then just end up being a normal game of elimination. I can understand that the 15 might be high for 8 player no spoils, but 8 player esc game, the first round of spoils go to 25 and that might make it to low.

Austrum
Baird sucks too much to be a starting point. Also, having killer starting positions is an extremely controversial decision... I figured we would no longer do that after the "Dust Bowl Dust Up".

Hayes is in the same position as Baird. But the starting positions for the ships is not a crucial one to stay in the game. They are just part of the normal deploy. But as the winning condition is to hold Meridiem and 5 ships, I wanted all players to start with at least one in all games. In a two player game, each player will get 16 territs over all. (2 ships, 6 from the middle and 8 going around the outside). I would consider only having one or two in the middle given out as the positions. Then I can balance the game better for the ships. So Baird and Hayes would get a territ close to Meridiem whilst the others further out. As for the decays being starting positions, Dust bowl should be sorted now as a new xml was written and I have decays as positions in Rorke's Drift so I do understand some players feelings toward this.

Both:
The positions don't correlate to each other very well. In Vertex Rho and Cos are adjacent, but in Austrum, they are quite seperate. I was assuming this is too poles of the same world, is this not the case?

Both have latin names. It gives a other world feel whilst grounding the maps in reality. I used lakes and rivers as place names became to recognisable. Will make sure to go around and remove any name that is duplicated.

[DoomYoshi]

Misc. Thoughts

Vertex:
15 territories is too many for a victory condition. An 8-player No Spoils would never finish.

It would then just end up being a normal game of elimination. I can understand that the 15 might be high for 8 player no spoils, but 8 player esc game, the first round of spoils go to 25 and that might make it to low.


If someone has victory conditon, there is a decent chance that another player can hit any one of the 15 terts though. Needs more input from others I guess, I rarely if ever go for victory conditions.

Austrum
Baird sucks too much to be a starting point. Also, having killer starting positions is an extremely controversial decision... I figured we would no longer do that after the "Dust Bowl Dust Up".

Hayes is in the same position as Baird. But the starting positions for the ships is not a crucial one to stay in the game. They are just part of the normal deploy. But as the winning condition is to hold Meridiem and 5 ships, I wanted all players to start with at least one in all games. In a two player game, each player will get 16 territs over all. (2 ships, 6 from the middle and 8 going around the outside). I would consider only having one or two in the middle given out as the positions. Then I can balance the game better for the ships. So Baird and Hayes would get a territ close to Meridiem whilst the others further out. As for the decays being starting positions, Dust bowl should be sorted now as a new xml was written and I have decays as positions in Rorke's Drift so I do understand some players feelings toward this.

I mean that Baird sucks, because it only connects to a single land territory, and that territory is a decay. Hayes connects to 2 land territories, one of which is not a decay. The man-in-the-middle element doesn't help either.

Both:
The positions don't correlate to each other very well. In Vertex Rho and Cos are adjacent, but in Austrum, they are quite seperate. I was assuming this is too poles of the same world, is this not the case?

Both have latin names. It gives a other world feel whilst grounding the maps in reality. I used lakes and rivers as place names became to recognisable. Will make sure to go around and remove any name that is duplicated.

[koontz1973]

I understand now about Baird. Will see to a solution tonight.

Victory conditions are rarely used unless you really need to. Now that I see your point clearly, I can see that a reduction is in order. How about 5 or 7?

[DoomYoshi]

I understand now about Baird. Will see to a solution tonight.

Victory conditions are rarely used unless you really need to. Now that I see your point clearly, I can see that a reduction is in order. How about 5 or 7?

5 makes no sense at all. 8-player games start with 5. That would mean the objective is to just to hold the central tert, so 5 becomes a meaningless number (unless we ever get 12 player games).
9 seems like a good number (since you start with 8 in 5, but 10 in 4).

Due to the unusual bonus structure though, there are some problems. Particularly with 7 players, since there are 6 starting territories. A 5 on 3 attack succeeds 64%. So there is a 64% chance that the first player can cripple an adjacent player (a drop of 1 being thus considered negligible).

[koontz1973]

I know Doom, I am trying to get it worked out for the next draft but have hit a little problem which is why it is taken me so long to post one. Will get the next one up at the weekend a the latest and by then all gp issues should be solved.

[koontz1973]

Vertex
Reduced the number of territs to hold to 10. So now you need to hold Arctous and any ten territs to win the game. Neutral vlaues and troops deployment stay the same.

Click image to enlarge.

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Austrum
This has had a lot of game play work. I have added an extra 2 ships to the map. All ships are a starting position with one territ in the centre. All starting positions will have an underlying neutral which is next to the coloured number. All other territs in the centre are a neutral one apart from Meridiem which is a 15. Winning condition stays the same. 5 ships and Meridium.
Starting positions will be handed out with a max of two. So up to 5 player games, 2 will be handed out, and above only one. Their is no losing condition so if players deploy next to each other, that is not a problem.

Click image to enlarge.

[DoomYoshi]

I love the new ships.

Are the starting positions mapped out so that if you start with Alston, you also start with AS1 (the red start)?

[Seamus76]

Why do the ships in the legend have red flags, but the ships on the map do not? The ships in the legend seem to have more detail as well.

[koontz1973]

I love the new ships.

Are the starting positions mapped out so that if you start with Alston, you also start with AS1 (the red start)?

Yes they are.

Why do the ships in the legend have red flags, but the ships on the map do not? The ships in the legend seem to have more detail as well.

Ship in legend and on the map are the same in every detail. The ones in the the legend though have been brought out (duplicated that layer) to aid gameplay. Without them, a couple of people where wondering what an Exploratorum was as I had ships all around the board. And before you ask, no I will not be bringing the ones on the map out like that.

Cheers guys.

[Seamus76]

Why do the ships in the legend have red flags, but the ships on the map do not? The ships in the legend seem to have more detail as well.

Ship in legend and on the map are the same in every detail. The ones in the the legend though have been brought out (duplicated that layer) to aid gameplay. Without them, a couple of people where wondering what an Exploratorum was as I had ships all around the board. And before you ask, no I will not be bringing the ones on the map out like that.

Ok, you can't say they are "the same in every detail", and then say the ones in the legend are different. They are not the same, and the ones on the legend look better so why not make the ones on the map look better? Obviously you don't have to bring the ones on the map out more, but somewhere along the way I'm sure someone else will point it out or ask them to be changed.

Just a little nit-pick, while I'm sure you would rather some constructive info. Sorry

[koontz1973]

Why do the ships in the legend have red flags, but the ships on the map do not? The ships in the legend seem to have more detail as well.

Ship in legend and on the map are the same in every detail. The ones in the the legend though have been brought out (duplicated that layer) to aid gameplay. Without them, a couple of people where wondering what an Exploratorum was as I had ships all around the board. And before you ask, no I will not be bringing the ones on the map out like that.

Ok, you can't say they are "the same in every detail", and then say the ones in the legend are different. They are not the same, and the ones on the legend look better so why not make the ones on the map look better? Obviously you don't have to bring the ones on the map out more, but somewhere along the way I'm sure someone else will point it out or ask them to be changed.

Just a little nit-pick, while I'm sure you would rather some constructive info. Sorry

Seamus, they are the same in every way. Completely identical. Not a pixel has been changed. The only difference is the ones in the legend are on two layers (duplicated). This just gives them a slight edge. And no, the map ones will not go that way. Why, because the legend is dark and the sea is light. So for game play and contrasting issues, they did needed to be brought out more than the ones on the map itself..

I am sure somewhere along the line, others may ask for them to be changed, but that does not mean they will be changed. Are they not identifiable? Is their some confusion over the ships? I think not.

[DoomYoshi]

Fawkner is the strongest starting position. He can connect his 2 starts by taking a 1 neutral. Also, that 1 neutral borders the objective. Singleton could take it also. Since his island start is in the middle of nowhere behind a bunch of other starters, his ideal first turn would be to start gobbling the SW continent.

Dawson and Mair Doubles team: unstoppable. They can kill yellow turn 1. There may be other little things like this, I will keep looking.

[DoomYoshi]

Fawkner is the strongest starting position. He can connect his 2 starts by taking a 1 neutral. Also, that 1 neutral borders the objective. Singleton could take it also. Since his island start is in the middle of nowhere behind a bunch of other starters, his ideal first turn would be to start gobbling the SW continent.

Dawson and Mair Doubles team: unstoppable. They can kill yellow turn 1. There may be other little things like this, I will keep looking.

Ok, maybe not unstoppable. But they are too strong, mainly because their island territories connect.


A team of Dayston and Alliston is not quite as good, for example, even though they could potentially kill green turn 1.

[koontz1973]

Fawkner is the strongest starting position. He can connect his 2 starts by taking a 1 neutral. Also, that 1 neutral borders the objective. Singleton could take it also. Since his island start is in the middle of nowhere behind a bunch of other starters, his ideal first turn would be to start gobbling the SW continent.

Dawson and Mair Doubles team: unstoppable. They can kill yellow turn 1. There may be other little things like this, I will keep looking.

Doom, remember, these positions are not the only things to start with. The outer islands all so start but with random deployment. So no, no one can be eliminated first turn but like a lot of larger team games, maybe it can be done. As for the different starts, they are deliberate so every game you have to come up with a different strategy. As you rightly said, for some, it is better to head into the middle but with the decays it makes it harder to hold. For others, the outside is better.

[DoomYoshi]

Fawkner is the strongest starting position. He can connect his 2 starts by taking a 1 neutral. Also, that 1 neutral borders the objective. Singleton could take it also. Since his island start is in the middle of nowhere behind a bunch of other starters, his ideal first turn would be to start gobbling the SW continent.

Dawson and Mair Doubles team: unstoppable. They can kill yellow turn 1. There may be other little things like this, I will keep looking.

Doom, remember, these positions are not the only things to start with. The outer islands all so start but with random deployment. So no, no one can be eliminated first turn but like a lot of larger team games, maybe it can be done. As for the different starts, they are deliberate so every game you have to come up with a different strategy. As you rightly said, for some, it is better to head into the middle but with the decays it makes it harder to hold. For others, the outside is better.

Oh. I thought the outer islands started neutral. My bad.

[koontz1973]

Fawkner is the strongest starting position. He can connect his 2 starts by taking a 1 neutral. Also, that 1 neutral borders the objective. Singleton could take it also. Since his island start is in the middle of nowhere behind a bunch of other starters, his ideal first turn would be to start gobbling the SW continent.

Dawson and Mair Doubles team: unstoppable. They can kill yellow turn 1. There may be other little things like this, I will keep looking.

Doom, remember, these positions are not the only things to start with. The outer islands all so start but with random deployment. So no, no one can be eliminated first turn but like a lot of larger team games, maybe it can be done. As for the different starts, they are deliberate so every game you have to come up with a different strategy. As you rightly said, for some, it is better to head into the middle but with the decays it makes it harder to hold. For others, the outside is better.

Oh. I thought the outer islands started neutral. My bad.

Not a problem Doom. Now that I explained that, do you think anything else needs to be done for either map?

[koontz1973]

Vertex
Large islands top left have been split into two different bonuses. Less chance of a bonus drop. The only one that might get a drop in 1v1 games is bottom right (9 territs). I know this is frowned upon but I would like to leave it as is instead of splitting that up as well.
New glows around the land for colour blind people.
Added territ line that was missed till now between Cauda and Anticosti.
Fixed rivers and land bleeds.

Click image to enlarge.

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Austrum
New glows for colour blind people.
Like Vertex, the islands that run around the left side of the board have now been split into two bonuses.
Fixed river and land bleeds.

Click image to enlarge.

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Both maps need to have the glow bleeds fixed.

Can I ask for a game play check please?

[koontz1973]

Glow clean up done to both maps. Toned down the glows as well. Still work for the colour blind filters. Names slanted as well. Brought out for readability and glow made more prominent as well for them.
Vertex

Click image to enlarge.

Austrum

Click image to enlarge.

[AndyDufresne]

Looking really terrific. Like the new glow and colors and the slanted names.

Is there a reason why Arctous looks all special font wise, and Meridiem doesn't? I may have missed something.


--Andy

[koontz1973]

Looking really terrific. Like the new glow and colors and the slanted names.

Is there a reason why Arctous looks all special font wise, and Meridiem doesn't? I may have missed something.


--Andy

Absolutely no reason for them to be different. Will get Meridiem and Arctout changed to be the same but different from the others.

EDIT: Both maps winning condition name has now been made the same. To give it a slight prominence over normal territs, the text is slightly larger and not on a slant.
Vertex

Click image to enlarge.

Austrum

Click image to enlarge.

[AndyDufresne]

I kind of liked the special color / text for the central region of both maps...! That is what I meant.


--Andy

[koontz1973]

I kind of liked the special color / text for the central region of both maps...! That is what I meant.


--Andy

Your wish is my command, but I am not sure about this one just yet. On another note, I sincerely hope you do not stop coming into the foundry after your retirement. Your observations will be missed.

Both now have the older territ text for the winning condition.
Vertex

Click image to enlarge.

Austrum

Click image to enlarge.