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Re: Vertex/Austrum [15/11] V6 Page 4

Postby DoomYoshi on Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:10 am

DoomYoshi wrote:Fawkner is the strongest starting position. He can connect his 2 starts by taking a 1 neutral. Also, that 1 neutral borders the objective. Singleton could take it also. Since his island start is in the middle of nowhere behind a bunch of other starters, his ideal first turn would be to start gobbling the SW continent.

Dawson and Mair Doubles team: unstoppable. They can kill yellow turn 1. There may be other little things like this, I will keep looking.


Ok, maybe not unstoppable. But they are too strong, mainly because their island territories connect.


A team of Dayston and Alliston is not quite as good, for example, even though they could potentially kill green turn 1.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [15/11] V6 Page 4

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:46 am

DoomYoshi wrote:Fawkner is the strongest starting position. He can connect his 2 starts by taking a 1 neutral. Also, that 1 neutral borders the objective. Singleton could take it also. Since his island start is in the middle of nowhere behind a bunch of other starters, his ideal first turn would be to start gobbling the SW continent.

Dawson and Mair Doubles team: unstoppable. They can kill yellow turn 1. There may be other little things like this, I will keep looking.

Doom, remember, these positions are not the only things to start with. The outer islands all so start but with random deployment. So no, no one can be eliminated first turn but like a lot of larger team games, maybe it can be done. As for the different starts, they are deliberate so every game you have to come up with a different strategy. As you rightly said, for some, it is better to head into the middle but with the decays it makes it harder to hold. For others, the outside is better.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [15/11] V6 Page 4

Postby DoomYoshi on Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:50 am

koontz1973 wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:Fawkner is the strongest starting position. He can connect his 2 starts by taking a 1 neutral. Also, that 1 neutral borders the objective. Singleton could take it also. Since his island start is in the middle of nowhere behind a bunch of other starters, his ideal first turn would be to start gobbling the SW continent.

Dawson and Mair Doubles team: unstoppable. They can kill yellow turn 1. There may be other little things like this, I will keep looking.

Doom, remember, these positions are not the only things to start with. The outer islands all so start but with random deployment. So no, no one can be eliminated first turn but like a lot of larger team games, maybe it can be done. As for the different starts, they are deliberate so every game you have to come up with a different strategy. As you rightly said, for some, it is better to head into the middle but with the decays it makes it harder to hold. For others, the outside is better.


Oh. I thought the outer islands started neutral. My bad.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [15/11] V6 Page 4

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:56 am

DoomYoshi wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:Fawkner is the strongest starting position. He can connect his 2 starts by taking a 1 neutral. Also, that 1 neutral borders the objective. Singleton could take it also. Since his island start is in the middle of nowhere behind a bunch of other starters, his ideal first turn would be to start gobbling the SW continent.

Dawson and Mair Doubles team: unstoppable. They can kill yellow turn 1. There may be other little things like this, I will keep looking.

Doom, remember, these positions are not the only things to start with. The outer islands all so start but with random deployment. So no, no one can be eliminated first turn but like a lot of larger team games, maybe it can be done. As for the different starts, they are deliberate so every game you have to come up with a different strategy. As you rightly said, for some, it is better to head into the middle but with the decays it makes it harder to hold. For others, the outside is better.


Oh. I thought the outer islands started neutral. My bad.

Not a problem Doom. Now that I explained that, do you think anything else needs to be done for either map?
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [15/11] V6 Page 4

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:24 am

Vertex
Large islands top left have been split into two different bonuses. Less chance of a bonus drop. The only one that might get a drop in 1v1 games is bottom right (9 territs). I know this is frowned upon but I would like to leave it as is instead of splitting that up as well.
New glows around the land for colour blind people.
Added territ line that was missed till now between Cauda and Anticosti.
Fixed rivers and land bleeds.
Click image to enlarge.
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Austrum
New glows for colour blind people.
Like Vertex, the islands that run around the left side of the board have now been split into two bonuses.
Fixed river and land bleeds.
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Both maps need to have the glow bleeds fixed.

Can I ask for a game play check please? :D :D :D :D :D
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [16/11] V6 Page 1/5 [GP?]

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:40 am

Glow clean up done to both maps. Toned down the glows as well. Still work for the colour blind filters. Names slanted as well. Brought out for readability and glow made more prominent as well for them.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [18/11] V7 Page 1/5 [GP?]

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:00 pm

Looking really terrific. Like the new glow and colors and the slanted names.

Is there a reason why Arctous looks all special font wise, and Meridiem doesn't? I may have missed something.


--Andy
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [18/11] V7 Page 1/5 [GP?]

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:20 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:Looking really terrific. Like the new glow and colors and the slanted names.

Is there a reason why Arctous looks all special font wise, and Meridiem doesn't? I may have missed something.


--Andy

Absolutely no reason for them to be different. Will get Meridiem and Arctout changed to be the same but different from the others.

EDIT: Both maps winning condition name has now been made the same. To give it a slight prominence over normal territs, the text is slightly larger and not on a slant.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [19/11] V8 Page 1/5 [GP?]

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:24 am

I kind of liked the special color / text for the central region of both maps...! That is what I meant.


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Re: Vertex/Austrum [19/11] V8 Page 1/5 [GP?]

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:38 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:I kind of liked the special color / text for the central region of both maps...! That is what I meant.


--Andy

Your wish is my command, but I am not sure about this one just yet. On another note, I sincerely hope you do not stop coming into the foundry after your retirement. Your observations will be missed.

Both now have the older territ text for the winning condition.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [20/11] V9 Page 1/5 [GP?]

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:14 pm

The current font and color may not be best, but I like the idea of giving those central regions a little something extra, outside of simply slightly enlarging their text or something.

These two maps are probably my two favorites of yours.


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Re: Vertex/Austrum [20/11] V9 Page 1/5 [GP?]

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:16 am

The two central territs only for both maps now have a different font than from before but it is within the same family of fonts as all of the other texts but larger and stronger. Glow is also the same as other territs but more rigid and stronger.
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AndyDufresne wrote:These two maps are probably my two favorites of yours.


--Andy

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Re: Vertex/Austrum [25/11] V10 Page 1/5 [GP?]

Postby generalhead on Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:14 pm

I like the different lettering for the middle. These ones look good.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [25/11] V10 Page 1/5 [GP?]

Postby nolefan5311 on Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:08 pm

I will post some things in the next few days koontz. Have been busy with holiday things the past couple days.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [1/12] V11 Page 1/5 [GP?]

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:13 am

nolefan5311 wrote:I will post some things in the next few days koontz. Have been busy with holiday things the past couple days.

Hi ho!
Hi ho!
It's of to work we go!
With a bucket and spade!
And a hand grenade!
Hi ho!
Hi ho!

New images for both. Little done but added a bridge that got deleted into Vertex.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [1/12] V11 Page 1/5 [GP?]

Postby nolefan5311 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:49 pm

I honestly don't have many suggestions. For Vertex, is there a reason why there is no entry into Supernas from the outer land masses?

The bonus structure for both maps has me worried as well. It's almost a certainty that in any game type, especially 1v1, tbat multiple bonuses will be dropped, and these look like maps that will be played a lot in 1v1. For instance, the SE continent has 9 regions in it. There is 9 regions in that area, and if a player only needs 3 for the +1, there is a mathematical certainty that at least 1 player will drop a bonus there. I know you don't want to do the traditional continents, and programming too many neutrals is going to destroy the gameplay of the map. Even increasing it to a +1 for every 4 territories in a region won't solve the problem, at least not for a 9 region continent. Just a suggestion, but what about making 10 different 4 region continents, and make each one worth +1? That's the only thing I can think of right now, without programming a bunch of starting neutrals. You have any ideas?

And this might just be me since I am colorblind, but it is a little difficult to tell what area some regions belong to (Insula, Carlt, etc).
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [1/12] V11 Page 1/5 [GP?]

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:15 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:I honestly don't have many suggestions. For Vertex, is there a reason why there is no entry into Supernas from the outer land masses?

No reason what so ever apart from when I drew the map, that is how it turned out. Would you like one?

The bonus structure for both maps has me worried as well. It's almost a certainty that in any game type, especially 1v1, tbat multiple bonuses will be dropped, and these look like maps that will be played a lot in 1v1. For instance, the SE continent has 9 regions in it. There is 9 regions in that area, and if a player only needs 3 for the +1, there is a mathematical certainty that at least 1 player will drop a bonus there. I know you don't want to do the traditional continents, and programming too many neutrals is going to destroy the gameplay of the map. Even increasing it to a +1 for every 4 territories in a region won't solve the problem, at least not for a 9 region continent. Just a suggestion, but what about making 10 different 4 region continents, and make each one worth +1? That's the only thing I can think of right now, without programming a bunch of starting neutrals. You have any ideas?

nole, my original idea was to not have any territory reinforcements (you know the normal +1 for every three you own) and only rely on bonuses for the extra troops. So on both maps, you need to drop 4 lots of 3 to get the extra 1 troop. This is not on the map as I need to keep the wording down to the barest amount. Please advise. This did lead to larger than normal bonus regions so players have the ability to expand and grow armies quicker than a normal game. So if I put in the words with the troops circle (bottom left for both maps), what would you say?
How about:
Troops
+1 for every 3 territories in a ? (I currently have region here).
No region bonus.
This I should be able to fit in.
And this might just be me since I am colorblind, but it is a little difficult to tell what area some regions belong to (Insula, Carlt, etc).

This I find strange as I used colour blind friendly colours and both maps look good in the gimp CB filter. Which areas are you finding easy to see and which hard. So I know what to touch and what not to.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [1/12] V11 Page 1/5 [GP?]

Postby nolefan5311 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:25 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:I honestly don't have many suggestions. For Vertex, is there a reason why there is no entry into Supernas from the outer land masses?

No reason what so ever apart from when I drew the map, that is how it turned out. Would you like one?


I think it would add some importance to that land mass, and not make it so difficult to get into the center from that side of the map.

koontz1973 wrote:
The bonus structure for both maps has me worried as well. It's almost a certainty that in any game type, especially 1v1, tbat multiple bonuses will be dropped, and these look like maps that will be played a lot in 1v1. For instance, the SE continent has 9 regions in it. There is 9 regions in that area, and if a player only needs 3 for the +1, there is a mathematical certainty that at least 1 player will drop a bonus there. I know you don't want to do the traditional continents, and programming too many neutrals is going to destroy the gameplay of the map. Even increasing it to a +1 for every 4 territories in a region won't solve the problem, at least not for a 9 region continent. Just a suggestion, but what about making 10 different 4 region continents, and make each one worth +1? That's the only thing I can think of right now, without programming a bunch of starting neutrals. You have any ideas?

nole, my original idea was to not have any territory reinforcements (you know the normal +1 for every three you own) and only rely on bonuses for the extra troops. So on both maps, you need to drop 4 lots of 3 to get the extra 1 troop. This is not on the map as I need to keep the wording down to the barest amount. Please advise. This did lead to larger than normal bonus regions so players have the ability to expand and grow armies quicker than a normal game. So if I put in the words with the troops circle (bottom left for both maps), what would you say?
How about:
Troops
+1 for every 3 territories in a ? (I currently have region here).
No region bonus.
This I should be able to fit in.


Honestly, I think I would almost prefer just the standard territory bonus instead of the cumulative bonus per region, but I don't know how you feel about that. The only issue with the way it currently is is because of the drop. If you can program starting positions to keep people from dropping say, 6 regions in one of the 9 region continents (and stop the +2 bonus from being dropped), then the issue is solved. The bonus structure itself is very balanced, it's just the drop that has me worried.

koontz1973 wrote:
And this might just be me since I am colorblind, but it is a little difficult to tell what area some regions belong to (Insula, Carlt, etc).

This I find strange as I used colour blind friendly colours and both maps look good in the gimp CB filter. Which areas are you finding easy to see and which hard. So I know what to touch and what not to.


It's not really a big issue, but I will need to look more closely to list specific issues (other than the ones I mentioned in my previous post, which are the main ones).
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [1/12] V11 Page 1/5 [GP?]

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:08 pm

Honestly, I think I would almost prefer just the standard territory bonus instead of the cumulative bonus per region, but I don't know how you feel about that. The only issue with the way it currently is is because of the drop. If you can program starting positions to keep people from dropping say, 6 regions in one of the 9 region continents (and stop the +2 bonus from being dropped), then the issue is solved. The bonus structure itself is very balanced, it's just the drop that has me worried.

If I left it as a normal region count bonus, do you not think that players would just go for territs. This would lead to no strategy and all up to the dice. This would be bad. Some form of a bonus does need to be in. Will post a map later toady to see what I come up with.
I think it would add some importance to that land mass, and not make it so difficult to get into the center from that side of the map.

Will add one.
It's not really a big issue, but I will need to look more closely to list specific issues (other than the ones I mentioned in my previous post, which are the main ones).

Will look into these two areas for you.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [1/12] V11 Page 1/5 [GP?]

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:02 am

Sorry for the double post.
Big things changed on Vertex.
Vertex
Changed wording for troops so now all players know bonuses are just that with no other troops coming. Is this OK or does it need another wording?
Added the sea route between Mona and Auster Supernas. Deforestation made this possible. ;)
Moved hte bridges in the centre going to Arctous so no matter where you go into the centre, you have to take 2 territs before you can attack Arctous.
Removed the sea route between Delos and Borras Boreus.
Changed the two areas that nole had trouble with. How is the colour looking to you now nole.
Click image to enlarge.
image

Austrum
Changed wording to be the same as Vertex in the troops part.
Click image to enlarge.
image


If the wording for troops is no good, can we all get some ideas on how to word it.
1 troops for 3 territs in a region with no normal reinforcements at all. If this cannot be found, and I am sure mine is good :mrgreen: now, will break up Vertex some more but this will cause problems with the CB filters and the overall look of the map so I really do not want to go down this route yet.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [2/12] V12 Page 1/6 [GP?]

Postby nolefan5311 on Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:53 pm

This still doesn't really solve the bonus dropping issue, which could be a problem. We'll have to see if ian and thenobodies are good with it as is.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [2/12] V12 Page 1/6 [GP?]

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:27 am

nolefan5311 wrote:This still doesn't really solve the bonus dropping issue, which could be a problem. We'll have to see if ian and thenobodies are good with it as is.

In fact it solves nothing I just realised when reading this and writing a detailed response to you about how it solves everything and a complete rant on why you cannot see my vision for the maps. :lol:

Right now I can see only two options now.
Option 1.
    Both maps because of the large territ count in all bonuses, starting positions to be programmed in (these will get added to the existing ones in Austrum). So on Vertex, each player gets a max of 2 SPs, so no bonus drops but a large amount of neutrals. I would programme these as 1 but a 2 would go into all ports. On Austrum, the same principle will apply but each one will be added to the current 12 for the ships and middle. This is a clean easy option making the maps like feudal. It can be done today and then we can move on. But this is really not the option I would like as it is not a game type I play.
Option 2.
    Going to change the wording back so we end up getting the 1 troops for 3 territs as well as the bonuses. But am going to split up the bonus regions some more to have less chance of the drop bonus. If I keep a continent with 5 or more territs in though, I will bung in a neutral to counter the bonus drops. This solves all issues and allows me to keep the maps I want.
Will post a map later today using options 1 and 2 later today.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [2/12] V12 Page 1/6 [GP?]

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:41 pm

Again a double post. What has come over with me today. :lol:

OK, been looking at the two options I posted earlier today, and both are utter rubbish. Option one is a game type I do not play and option two produces lots of bonus areas and neutrals. I hate neutrals and the rainbow looked awful on the maps. So I thought long and hard to try and find a third option, which I think is a complete winner. Lets me keep the maps as I would like, stops bonus drops and has the benefit of being a decent progressive bonus system. All that needed to be changed and this might be the part that might need to be changed is this, troops - +1 for 3 territories that are connected. I think this is a fan bloody tastic solution but can you lot let me know what you think. It might need to go up to say 4/5 connected.
Vertex
New troop text.
Added Nesser to top right legend.
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Austrum
Same bonus text.
Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [3/12] V13 Page 1/6 [GP?]

Postby nolefan5311 on Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:59 pm

Going to go ahead and sticky this for the GP stamp, but give it longer than 48 hours to make sure a headline can get posted and give the community plenty of time to give their input.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [3/12] V13 Page 1/6 [GP?]

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:51 pm

Thanks nole, I need to put a few things in like a missing bridge and a sea route but I will get that done on Thursday.
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