WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

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Re: Pearl Harbour

Postby cairnswk on Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:39 am

ahote wrote:Pearl Game

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but this map, which I love, has one problem, namely when playing a one on one, the person who goes second is screwed 90% of the time. I just started 4 games and they all got joined by corporals or something. They all started with a hefty bonus AND they all went first.

Something's not right and in an age when we can put a fucking robot on Mars, we can't find a way of programming the game to start in a more even manner.

This will improve the following aspects of the game:

First one to go doesn't pick up his bonus till the next round, say.

or:

Second one to go get's an extra bonus of say 6 armies.


Yes ahote, your request is noted, and if there is a change to xml engine and the way it works that will be a good balancing for the map/game.
We could not have bonuses on this map at all. Also we could make the first round for everyone starting not get a bonus.
All valid suggestions....for the future :)
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby ahote on Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:56 am

cairnswk wrote:
Kk-Boy wrote:...

My suggestion for this map: the aircraft and the anti aircraft (both give a lot of bonuses) should start neutral than the game will be more balanced.


I am sorry Kk-boy, but starting the aircraft as neutrals would not be true to history, and that was my intention.
As i have stated before, the aircraft had the advantage of attack and i know everyone doesn't like it, but that is this map/game.



I don't think the aircraft should start as neutrals and I think the map is frickin' awesome - I play 25% of my games on it - it's my favourite map, though Wales is catching up.

I think the problem of the first turn can be solved by not giving the first turn person all of his or her bonus. They would start with 3 + any bonus from the AAs and be able to neutralize one or two planes and fortify one or two positions - the person to go second would then start with the bonus.

Someone suggested a mirrored drop on a second game a while back, but that seems complicated.

I also don't agree with the criticism of the AA's above - who cares where the AA guns are pointed - it's an amazingly balanced map on a multi-player basis, including access to Ford Island etc.
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:59 pm

V1
V2
V3
V4
V5
V6
K1

K1
K2
K3
K4
K5
K6

Z1
Z2
Z3
Z4
Z5
Z6
Z7

OK, oaktown has put in a suggestion to address this issue that we matrix the starting positions (and i think this should only be done for the aircraft as I don't see any other areas as being the issue)

Anyone want to have a go at this (aircraft are above).
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby oaktown on Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:17 pm

cairnswk wrote:OK, oaktown has put in a suggestion to address this issue that we matrix the starting positions (and i think this should only be done for the aircraft as I don't see any other areas as being the issue)

Anyone want to have a go at this (aircraft are above).

Trick is that you get a bonus for having as few as two aircraft, so short of coding the planes as neutral starts (which I agree is not ideal) you are going to end up with aircraft bonuses in two player games. In creating two starting positions I think what you will want to do is this:

1. give each player three of each aircraft: it will give each player three +2 bonuses

2. make it really difficult for player 1 to break player 2's aircraft bonuses by
  • coding the AA batteries nuetral, with a bunchof armies on each (at least five)
  • starting each player with the boats that border their own planes, so it will take crashing through two boats AND two planes to eliminate any one bonus. eg. the player that gets V1 also gets Ramsey, the player that gets Z1 also gets nevada and, thus, also starts with z2.

So long as player 2 also gets to start with all of his/her aircraft bonuses this will actually be a pretty good two player map; how often is player two in a head to head game guaranteed a +9 bonus?
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:07 am

oaktown wrote:
cairnswk wrote:OK, oaktown has put in a suggestion to address this issue that we matrix the starting positions (and i think this should only be done for the aircraft as I don't see any other areas as being the issue)

Anyone want to have a go at this (aircraft are above).

Trick is that you get a bonus for having as few as two aircraft, so short of coding the planes as neutral starts (which I agree is not ideal) you are going to end up with aircraft bonuses in two player games. In creating two starting positions I think what you will want to do is this:

1. give each player three of each aircraft: it will give each player three +2 bonuses

2. make it really difficult for player 1 to break player 2's aircraft bonuses by
  • coding the AA batteries nuetral, with a bunchof armies on each (at least five)
  • starting each player with the boats that border their own planes, so it will take crashing through two boats AND two planes to eliminate any one bonus. eg. the player that gets V1 also gets Ramsey, the player that gets Z1 also gets nevada and, thus, also starts with z2.

So long as player 2 also gets to start with all of his/her aircraft bonuses this will actually be a pretty good two player map; how often is player two in a head to head game guaranteed a +9 bonus?


Oaktown...
1. as i understand it, you can't simply code each player to start with three +2 bonuses.
If you code for player one and two (as per two player game) what happens to the rest of the planes in the random drop.
Because there are 19 planes in all, taking out 6 for a two player game will leave 13 planes, divide that by three and you still have four at least for player one and two, which means that any one of the players could still end up with a sizeable bonus.

2. I don't see any benefit either in placing player's starting positions on ships next to their planes. the idea of the battle is to allow other players to gain an upper hand with the planes on the ships.

3. coding the AA batteries to neutral start however, i can concur might work since it would have taken time for USA navy to get to the AA batteries. That's not a bad idea.

My preference would be to have an adjustment to the xml engine so that each player doesn't get a bonus on the drop. :)
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby Thezzaruz on Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:53 am

cairnswk wrote:My preference would be to have an adjustment to the xml engine so that each player doesn't get a bonus on the drop. :)

I agree, fixing the issue with bonuses on round 1 helps out a lot more maps than this one. And having fixed starting positions is not really a good solution for this map.





cicero wrote:Moved from Suggestions & Bug Reports to Map Foundry.
Foundry Mods please merge with quenched thread.

Cicero

MrBenn wrote:[merged]


Sorry guys but that wasn't such a good move IMO. It might be a bit poorly worded thread title but the main issue in his posts was changing round 1 bonuses and that is an issue that goes better in S&B than in a specific map thread. Could have asked him to rename/remake the thread instead.
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby yeti_c on Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:49 am

cairnswk wrote:My preference would be to have an adjustment to the xml engine so that each player doesn't get a bonus on the drop. :)


Which is physically impossible on this map.

C.
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:04 am

yeti_c wrote:
cairnswk wrote:My preference would be to have an adjustment to the xml engine so that each player doesn't get a bonus on the drop. :)


Which is physically impossible on this map.

C.


Why is it physically impossible?
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby owenshooter on Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:41 pm

i don't really care about issues that have arisen with the popularity of 1v1 games. this map is clearly meant for larger games, and if you choose to play 1v1, deal with the issues that happen. the only problem that i see often in my team games, is that the plane bonus (multiple at times), is far too easy to land on with only needing 2. bump that up to 3, and the game is more fair. other than that, i love the map... still one of the best on the site!!-0

p.s.-hey, cairns, remember when me and cooper played you and lack on the day it was released, and we were passing armies from the guns to the planes and onto the center island?!! ha!!! that was a GREAT bug that you had to run off and fix, missing turns in the process!!!!
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby yeti_c on Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:19 pm

cairnswk wrote:
yeti_c wrote:
cairnswk wrote:My preference would be to have an adjustment to the xml engine so that each player doesn't get a bonus on the drop. :)


Which is physically impossible on this map.

C.


Why is it physically impossible?


Well for 2 player games - as it stands - you cannot create a drop that doesn't give a bonus...

Or do you mean - in the first round - continent bonuses aren't awarded?
In that case :- Poker Club wouldn't work - as that map relies on people holding a bonus straight up.

C.
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:29 pm

owenshooter wrote:i don't really care about issues that have arisen with the popularity of 1v1 games. this map is clearly meant for larger games, and if you choose to play 1v1, deal with the issues that happen. the only problem that i see often in my team games, is that the plane bonus (multiple at times), is far too easy to land on with only needing 2. bump that up to 3, and the game is more fair. other than that, i love the map... still one of the best on the site!!-0

p.s.-hey, cairns, remember when me and cooper played you and lack on the day it was released, and we were passing armies from the guns to the planes and onto the center island?!! ha!!! that was a GREAT bug that you had to run off and fix, missing turns in the process!!!!

Gawd no, i don't remember that. Too long and 16 maps ago. ;)
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:29 pm

Version 43
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Last edited by cairnswk on Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:37 pm

yeti_c wrote:...
Well for 2 player games - as it stands - you cannot create a drop that doesn't give a bonus...
Or do you mean - in the first round - continent bonuses aren't awarded?
In that case :- Poker Club wouldn't work - as that map relies on people holding a bonus straight up.
C.

Well it should be feasible for lackattack to implement another xml feature where no player gets a bonus on the first round only as:

<continent>
<name>NY AA</name>
<bonus>1</bonus>
<components>
<component>NY AA</component>
</components>
<roundexception>1</roundexception>
</continent>
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:42 pm

owenshooter wrote:i don't really care about issues that have arisen with the popularity of 1v1 games. this map is clearly meant for larger games, and if you choose to play 1v1, deal with the issues that happen. the only problem that i see often in my team games, is that the plane bonus (multiple at times), is far too easy to land on with only needing 2. bump that up to 3, and the game is more fair. other than that, i love the map... still one of the best on the site!!-0
...

well, now that i look at the map. perhaps the aircraft drop bonus and all others would be solved if i increased the bonuses to:
Until group taken, within any group
+3 any 4 aircraft
+4 any 5 aircraft

Would that eliminate some of the bonus issues with all games :?: :?:
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby Joodoo on Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:53 am

cairnswk wrote:
owenshooter wrote:i don't really care about issues that have arisen with the popularity of 1v1 games. this map is clearly meant for larger games, and if you choose to play 1v1, deal with the issues that happen. the only problem that i see often in my team games, is that the plane bonus (multiple at times), is far too easy to land on with only needing 2. bump that up to 3, and the game is more fair. other than that, i love the map... still one of the best on the site!!-0
...

well, now that i look at the map. perhaps the aircraft drop bonus and all others would be solved if i increased the bonuses to:
Until group taken, within any group
+3 any 4 aircraft
+4 any 5 aircraft

Would that eliminate some of the bonus issues with all games :?: :?:


sounds good
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby lt_oddball on Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:08 am

This thing with the first of 2 players having a huge edge over the other is a uniform problem with large maps with multiple bonusparches.
It's not something typical for Pearl Harbor.

There is a general solution that works for all these maps (like Waterloo etc..) and it should be simple to implement:
1) DON'T START 2 PLAYER GAMES WITH THESE TYPES OF LARGE MAPS.
(duh- :roll: )
That was the simplest solution.

2) Implement many , many, many more neutrals on the map. So each of the 2 players should not start with more starting territories than they would if playing in a 8 player field (something like 9 territories ?).
There, simple and effective ! :mrgreen: :ugeek:
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:23 am

lt_oddball wrote:This thing with the first of 2 players having a huge edge over the other is a uniform problem with large maps with multiple bonusparches.
It's not something typical for Pearl Harbor.

There is a general solution that works for all these maps (like Waterloo etc..) and it should be simple to implement:
1) DON'T START 2 PLAYER GAMES WITH THESE TYPES OF LARGE MAPS.
(duh- :roll: )
That was the simplest solution.

2) Implement many , many, many more neutrals on the map. So each of the 2 players should not start with more starting territories than they would if playing in a 8 player field (something like 9 territories ?).
There, simple and effective ! :mrgreen: :ugeek:


Yes, thanks lt_oddball, the other thing i am thinking of doing is upping the plane required numbers before that bonus takes affect.
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby Blitzaholic on Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:54 am

cairns we need to talk about revamping this.


it is a great map but it is unbalanced and not fair for game play.


for starters i suggest the planes or zeros for every 2 you hold you get a bonus of plus 1 not 3
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Fri May 01, 2009 6:34 am

Blitzaholic wrote:cairns we need to talk about revamping this.
it is a great map but it is unbalanced and not fair for game play.
for starters i suggest the planes or zeros for every 2 you hold you get a bonus of plus 1 not 3

I was thinking:

* Until Group taken, within any Group
+ 3 any 4 aircraft + 4 any 5 aircraft


That will still stop the early bonuses, but still make the planes worthwhile obtaining; and still leave the continent bonus reachable also. :)
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby MrBenn on Fri May 01, 2009 2:51 pm

cairnswk wrote:
Blitzaholic wrote:cairns we need to talk about revamping this.
it is a great map but it is unbalanced and not fair for game play.
for starters i suggest the planes or zeros for every 2 you hold you get a bonus of plus 1 not 3

I was thinking:

* Until Group taken, within any Group
+ 3 any 4 aircraft + 4 any 5 aircraft


That will still stop the early bonuses, but still make the planes worthwhile obtaining; and still leave the continent bonus reachable also. :)

That's a good solution.
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby karelpietertje on Fri May 01, 2009 8:35 pm

Game 4798757
look at this drop :lol:

at this moment i havent lost yet... but I don't know if i have a chance.. :?
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby Thezzaruz on Mon May 04, 2009 10:33 am

Why do people post links to speed games and ask us to look at the drop??? :roll: :?: :roll:
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby Blitzaholic on Mon May 04, 2009 1:33 pm

cairnswk wrote:
Blitzaholic wrote:cairns we need to talk about revamping this.
it is a great map but it is unbalanced and not fair for game play.
for starters i suggest the planes or zeros for every 2 you hold you get a bonus of plus 1 not 3

I was thinking:

* Until Group taken, within any Group
+ 3 any 4 aircraft + 4 any 5 aircraft


That will still stop the early bonuses, but still make the planes worthwhile obtaining; and still leave the continent bonus reachable also. :)




ok, well, this would be an improvement, I like your idea here better than what it is currently, thank you for considering, maybe all the planes would be like this, so many go for the planes bonus's and no others, awesome map for quads, but dubs, trips, and others it really is challenging on some drops, so yes, if you can make it more balanced, super and thank you.
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby lgoasklucyl on Mon May 04, 2009 2:02 pm

I really agree that switching the planes around like that would help balance the map immensely.

I'm on a dubs on the map now, and he dropped two different sets of planes, and AA, plus the standard +6 for a 13 drop before I even had a turn.

My initial drop was reduced to about 6, rendering a comeback next to impossible without phenomenal dice.

Otherwise, I do love the map.

Playing it quads can reduce the problem slightly.
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:06 pm

Talk about all this long ago---still talk about the above?


--Andy
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Corporal AndyDufresne
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