WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby aspalm on Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:14 pm

I agree that this is too big a change for one of my favorite boards. while i would agree that in a 1v1 our doubs game, the initial turn has quite the advantage, the current system makes it one of the better maps for trips and quads games. a lot of strategy as far as whether to go for planes or AA's, etc. Now it will be just like any other quads/trips boards, where people often play to take out someone instead of going for bonuses. Disappointing. Why not make both versions available? :(
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:55 pm

aspalm wrote:.....Why not make both versions available? :(

Now that's a positive suggestion, but i don't know if lackattack would allow it. :?:
and besides, do we really need to have two maps...could set a precendant! :)
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:56 pm

shidarin wrote:Hmm, I personally feel it's too radical of a change- especially since in the actual game (and not just the drop) the planes played such an integral part of the overall strategy.

It seems like it's a big leap from +3 every 2 to +3 every 4.

Why not +3 every 3? It'd still be more difficult to achieve on the initial drop, while not radically changing the strategies currently employed on the map.



Perhaps a vote would be an option?
Or is that going overbaord?
Whichever way we go, i don't think we keep everyone happy.
Now where's those high-faluting strategists when you need them. :roll:
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby netspyman on Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:05 am

this is one of my faviot maps and i play it a lot. I do agree that it is a clear advantage going first if you have a good drop. I think what would work better and keep the same game statagie is to change the bonus to a lower amount and also increase the planes needed like 2 for +1 3 for +2 that way peps would still go for the planes and aa's. It would also make the drop not so one sided.

Just my thoughts


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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby iancanton on Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:09 am

this is worth doing properly. bonuses for 4 and 5 planes! no half-hearted measures!

ian. :)
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby a.sub on Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:35 pm

:?: :?: :?: :?:
im SO confused!
what changed?
from what to what?
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:41 pm

a.sub wrote::?: :?: :?: :?:
im SO confused!
what changed?
from what to what?



Gees a.sub, can't you read on the previous page :shock:

From

* Until Group taken, within any Group
+ 3 any 2 aircraft + 4 any 4 aircraft


To


* Until Group taken, within any Group
+ 3 any 4 aircraft + 4 any 5 aircraft
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby a.sub on Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:42 pm

OOOOOOH :oops: :oops: :oops:
wow that was stupid of me!
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby Knight2254 on Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:27 pm

I play this map quite a bit as well and have had great success. As far as imbalanced -- I'm not so sure it is. Sometimes, but not everytime. I'm 16 for 19 with a rating of "equalitarian." If you exclude the 8 player free for all I just finished I'm 16 for 18 in team games so there must be something I do differently than everybody else because certainly I've had more than 2 "bad drops" yet I maintained a 88+% win percentage.

I could get on board with lessening the bonus, but the way you're doing it you are making the AA guns WAY too valuable. Now it's going to be very difficult to get a bonus aside from the AA guns so whoever gets those will simply reinforce those every turn and be able to shoot down enough planes to eliminate the plane bonuses.

If we do anything I think we should reduce the bonuses as suggested previously -- Something like +1 for 2, +2 for 3, +3 for 3. This would allow you, if you did not get the AA bonuses (then you're probably loaded with planes), to have a fighting chance.
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby a.sub on Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:20 pm

well i havent counted myself, but why not reduce the number of planes that are starting positions
so if its +1 for 3 and there are 6 planes, in an 8 man one person has a 23.4%* chance of getting 3 planes
but if you reduce it to 5 planes are starting positions then its down to 3.9%*
its an incredibly small change map wise, but a MASSIVE one drop wise.


equation = (probability of getting 1 plane)^(number of planes wanted) * (number of spots)! /(number of planes so 1,2,3 is counted but 2,3,1 etc. arent)!
* (1/8)^(3)*(6)!/(3)!=.234375=23.4375%
* (1/8)^(3)*(5)!/(3)!=.039063=3.9063%
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby a.sub on Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:25 pm

oh once i make a suggestion everyone gets bored with the topic?
HMPH!!
*goes to the corner angrily*
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby shidarin on Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:29 pm

Random thought- it'd be interesting if you couldn't receive the AA bonus if you possessed any of the planes that AA attacks.

Since you can't send up flak at your own planes :)

I think an idea that's emerging is lessening the bonuses by 1, or increasing the planes needed by 1.

At the same time, a.sub mentioned that starting off some of the planes are neutral would help with initial 1v1 drops. Ideally these would be planes near the center (Z4, V5,4 etc), crowded area of the map and not dead end planes like V1 or Z1,2 (so that you wouldn't have an easily defendable area on first drop because of the neut planes)
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:52 pm

a.sub wrote:oh once i make a suggestion everyone gets bored with the topic?
HMPH!!
*goes to the corner angrily*


a.sub...i have more going on in my life at present than this map, so don't be discouraged if you don't get an answer immediately.

To the thoughts from people of dropping the number of planes that start....
It will not happen. Period.
This is a map met to revolve around the initial attack by the planes.
I am not interested in changing that., so please do not ask further on this line.

We can ensure that seomone doesn't get an immediate bonus on the drop by making the drop aspect harder for all games, but i tend also to agree with Knight2254, that the map is reasonably well balanced apart from the drop, and this is the aspect that has been most troublesome over the last year or more for most players.

If someone wants to play the AA batteries then good that is there option...but I am not in favour of making it easier to get plane bonuses, like +1 for 2, +2 for 3 etc.

I am happy to reconfirm the changed bonuses for the planes and agree with Ian canton....
iancanton wrote:this is worth doing properly. bonuses for 4 and 5 planes! no half-hearted measures!
ian. :)


cairnswk wrote:From

* Until Group taken, within any Group
+ 3 any 2 aircraft + 4 any 4 aircraft


To


* Until Group taken, within any Group
+ 3 any 4 aircraft + 4 any 5 aircraft
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby a.sub on Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 am

cairnswk wrote:
a.sub wrote:oh once i make a suggestion everyone gets bored with the topic?
HMPH!!
*goes to the corner angrily*


a.sub...i have more going on in my life at present than this map, so don't be discouraged if you don't get an answer immediately.


simmer down i was joking
:roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:52 am

a.sub wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
a.sub wrote:oh once i make a suggestion everyone gets bored with the topic?
HMPH!!
*goes to the corner angrily*


a.sub...i have more going on in my life at present than this map, so don't be discouraged if you don't get an answer immediately.


simmer down i was joking
:roll: :roll: :roll:


I'm quite calm. Thanks. ;)
Unfortunately i can't red any intonations from your face or other expressions you might use because you failed to indicate that you were joking....Sorry. :roll:
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby Thezzaruz on Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:52 am

I never really saw the need for a change (must have been getting all good drops ;)).Just thought the planes where a sub set of the map that needed to be strategically tended to.


But if there should be a change then I'd say this is the way to go.
cairnswk wrote:To
* Until Group taken, within any Group
+ 3 any 4 aircraft + 4 any 5 aircraft
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby a.sub on Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:21 pm

cairnswk wrote:I'm quite calm. Thanks. ;)
Unfortunately i can't red any intonations from your face or other expressions you might use because you failed to indicate that you were joking....Sorry. :roll:

was my post that vindictive that you couldnt even realize it? brilliant

cairnswk wrote:To the thoughts from people of dropping the number of planes that start....
It will not happen. Period.
This is a map met to revolve around the initial attack by the planes.
I am not interested in changing that., so please do not ask further on this line.
Yes thats great, making the initial attack from the planes is nice and all but do you honestly believe that removing ONE plane per set would be that detrimental to your map?

We can ensure that seomone doesn't get an immediate bonus on the drop by making the drop aspect harder for all games, but i tend also to agree with Knight2254, that the map is reasonably well balanced apart from the drop, and this is the aspect that has been most troublesome over the last year or more for most players.

If someone wants to play the AA batteries then good that is there option...but I am not in favour of making it easier to get plane bonuses, like +1 for 2, +2 for 3 etc.

I am happy to reconfirm the changed bonuses for the planes and agree with Ian canton....
iancanton wrote:this is worth doing properly. bonuses for 4 and 5 planes! no half-hearted measures!
ian. :)


cairnswk wrote:From

* Until Group taken, within any Group
+ 3 any 2 aircraft + 4 any 4 aircraft


To


* Until Group taken, within any Group
+ 3 any 4 aircraft + 4 any 5 aircraft
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:07 pm

a.sub wrote:Yes thats great, making the initial attack from the planes is nice and all but do you honestly believe that removing ONE plane per set would be that detrimental to your map?


Yes, it takes away the flavour of what Pearl Harbour was. :)
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby shidarin on Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:52 pm

cairnswk wrote:
a.sub wrote:Yes thats great, making the initial attack from the planes is nice and all but do you honestly believe that removing ONE plane per set would be that detrimental to your map?


Yes, it takes away the flavour of what Pearl Harbour was. :)


Not all the planes attacked at the exact same time.

I understand that you want there to be an attack from the planes thing going on; but it's never really felt like that to me. Just feels like a normal map for the most part.

Heck, if you want the attack from the planes feeling, you should embrace the unevenness of the first drop.
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:33 pm

shidarin wrote:...
Not all the planes attacked at the exact same time.

I understand that you want there to be an attack from the planes thing going on; but it's never really felt like that to me. Just feels like a normal map for the most part.

Heck, if you want the attack from the planes feeling, you should embrace the unevenness of the first drop.


I did shidarin, but so many people complained....
So i am prepared to give this adjustment to see if it helps appoase most...but i know it will probably mean others will never be happy. ;)
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby a.sub on Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:47 pm

you know what?
i typed up a full 3 paragraphs on what you could change to get the "planes are attacking" feel and at the same time keep people quiet
but i realized something, this is retarded
can we honestly say more than 10% of CC actually dislike the way the map is?
i say we put up a vote to see if this is really worth doing, because as a map maker i think the last thing you need is to deal with the handful of ppl that are never satisfied
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:15 am

a.sub wrote:you know what?
i typed up a full 3 paragraphs on what you could change to get the "planes are attacking" feel and at the same time keep people quiet
but i realized something, this is retarded
can we honestly say more than 10% of CC actually dislike the way the map is?
i say we put up a vote to see if this is really worth doing, because as a map maker i think the last thing you need is to deal with the handful of ppl that are never satisfied


a.sub, if you want to create another Pearl Harbour maps that works along different lines, drops or whatever, you are welcome to create your own. :)
For the last time, i am interested in only giving the proposed changes.
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby MrBenn on Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:25 am

Let's all take a chill pill, and wait for the updated files to be uploaded ;-)
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:28 am

MrBenn wrote:Let's all take a chill pill, and wait for the updated files to be uploaded ;-)


I agree. :)
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Re: WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

Postby a.sub on Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:29 pm

cairnswk wrote:
a.sub wrote:you know what?
i typed up a full 3 paragraphs on what you could change to get the "planes are attacking" feel and at the same time keep people quiet
but i realized something, this is retarded
can we honestly say more than 10% of CC actually dislike the way the map is?
i say we put up a vote to see if this is really worth doing, because as a map maker i think the last thing you need is to deal with the handful of ppl that are never satisfied


a.sub, if you want to create another Pearl Harbour maps that works along different lines, drops or whatever, you are welcome to create your own. :)
For the last time, i am interested in only giving the proposed changes.


lol i think my poor communication skills have come in again, it was a crappy way of saying i liked the old map :lol: :oops:
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