Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby yeti_c on Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:24 am

crazycoders wrote:Bug i think, please confirm:

Fort type: adjacent

Problem: Could not fort from TED to 304. Could only fort from TED to MASTER KOI. Technically, 304, TED and MASTER KOI are all adjacent...


User Error...

304, Ted & Master Koi all border each other fine.

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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby 3mp3r0r on Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:55 am

just finished playing this map in a trips game and i think that there is a problem;

early on i took out all he gang members on the outside. After that if anyone wanted to attack me there then they would have to have gone through at least 12 neutrels before they could attack any of the outside gang members
I think that you should add a tunnel from 1/some of the cells to the outside as there could be a situation where one player only has the only got outside territories which would mean another player would need to go through 12 neutrels just to finish them off. If you added a tunnel from say each of the gang leaders to the outside it would make the game more interesting and this sort of situation wouldnt happen

just a sudgestion :D
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby yeti_c on Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:00 am

Completely disagree with this - that change would completely ruin the Warden bonuses...

Sometimes taking the outside and having that protection is your only choice - and then the warden is your only saviour!

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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby mikersj on Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:13 am

I think there is a bug in the bonuses
I am playing game 3183036 round 6
I have been getting a bonus for gang leader el buro and 3 gang members for the whole game so far.
Then I just took the warden and the bonus for the gang leader went away. I still have the gang leader and gang members. I still get the bonus for 3 new fish, but no bonus on the gang leader and members.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby yeti_c on Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:36 am

mikersj wrote:I think there is a bug in the bonuses
I am playing game 3183036 round 6
I have been getting a bonus for gang leader el buro and 3 gang members for the whole game so far.
Then I just took the warden and the bonus for the gang leader went away. I still have the gang leader and gang members. I still get the bonus for 3 new fish, but no bonus on the gang leader and members.


It's foggy so impossible to tell...

Are you sure you didn't lose a gang member? (There is nothing in the XML to suggest that this would happen.)

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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby blakebowling on Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:20 am

3mp3r0r wrote:just finished playing this map in a trips game and i think that there is a problem;

early on i took out all he gang members on the outside. After that if anyone wanted to attack me there then they would have to have gone through at least 12 neutrals before they could attack any of the outside gang members
I think that you should add a tunnel from 1/some of the cells to the outside as there could be a situation where one player only has the only got outside territories which would mean another player would need to go through 12 neutrals just to finish them off. If you added a tunnel from say each of the gang leaders to the outside it would make the game more interesting and this sort of situation wouldnt happen

just a suggestion :D

Fixed for all of you that don't speak Gibberish

BTW: It's too late to change something like that.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby mikersj on Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:44 am

I relooked at the game log, I have NOT been getting the bonus the whole game. Maybe I don't understand how the bonus works. I guess I need more gang members to get the bonus.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby yeti_c on Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:51 am

mikersj wrote:I relooked at the game log, I have NOT been getting the bonus the whole game. Maybe I don't understand how the bonus works. I guess I need more gang members to get the bonus.


Yeah - the bonus is Gang Leader + 3, 6, 9, 12... gang members.

So when the continent reports as "4 Latin Kings" - then that is El Burro + 3 other gang members.

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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby Incandenza on Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:30 pm

So I have a suggestion to tweak a couple of the neutrals, specifically Guards 005 and 501. Given the importance of gen pop and the yard (especially in 1v1s), I think having 5's in those positions, making a counterattack (or in the case of 005, access to the tower bombardment guards) that much more difficult, is kinda cheeky, since they're working for the defense. How about bumping them down to 2's?

(I suppose an argument could be made that all the cell block guards could be 2's as well, but for the moment, let's concentrate on the two in question)
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby Halmir on Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:11 am

First off love the map, it's got a great amount of complexity that will need a number of play throughs to get the hang of it properly. A couple of thoughts (sorry if they've been raised already, I'm not really gonna go through 55 pages of posts here!):

1) Triad and Aryan not easy to distinguish on first glance. Perhaps different shapes (square instead of circle for one etc) might help?

2) I'm playing game 3160061 where I started the round with 6 aryan brotherhood but the game only counted 4. I had Kaiser, Gregor, Karl in block D and Adolf, Max & Tyler in the yard. Is this a bug?

Great work anyways, enjoying playing it (this may in part be due to me winning on it currently :D) !
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby yeti_c on Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:18 am

Halmir wrote:1) Triad and Aryan not easy to distinguish on first glance. Perhaps different shapes (square instead of circle for one etc) might help?


I agree with this actually - especially on a laptop screen - one thing that helped me - was ensuring to look at the coloured ring round the circles - as that is very different for each one.

Halmir wrote:2) I'm playing game 3160061 where I started the round with 6 aryan brotherhood but the game only counted 4. I had Kaiser, Gregor, Karl in block D and Adolf, Max & Tyler in the yard. Is this a bug?


No:- You had 6 - but you didn't have 7 - the next bonus level is 7.

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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby BENJIKAT IS DEAD on Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:38 pm

Incandenza wrote:So I have a suggestion to tweak a couple of the neutrals, specifically Guards 005 and 501. Given the importance of gen pop and the yard (especially in 1v1s), I think having 5's in those positions, making a counterattack (or in the case of 005, access to the tower bombardment guards) that much more difficult, is kinda cheeky, since they're working for the defense. How about bumping them down to 2's?

(I suppose an argument could be made that all the cell block guards could be 2's as well, but for the moment, let's concentrate on the two in question)


I agree with all of the above - but think that there is also a strong argument for making all the bosses neutral 4 or 5 too.

btw - this map is marvellous in a whole host of different settings - very enjoyable!
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby Incandenza on Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:42 pm

BENJIKAT IS DEAD wrote:I agree with all of the above - but think that there is also a strong argument for making all the bosses neutral 4 or 5 too.


Ah, there's this too, which would make drops considerably more even... One of the things I always liked about Arms Race is that, while my drop may not be great, I know for an absolute fact that my opponent will never start his first turn with more than 3 armies. Obviously that wouldn't be the case with prison riot given the vagaries of new fish, but forcing players to take bosses as opposed to just dropping them (and giving the edge to the guy going first in the case of a split cell) would be worth considering.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby Klaste on Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:37 am

The whole warden area gets you a pretty big bonus, and if you take all the prisoners out front (meaning outside 001), all you gotta do is hold a single point - 005 - for an easy +10 bonus (not including the sheer number of easy territories included within). Also not to mention the bombardment spots.. I'm not arguing against the bonus, I just think maybe it should be a bit harder to hold.

What my point is, I actually think the tunnel idea is a good one, purely because it's going to make whoever takes the warden at least have to guard two points instead of one.


P.S. You guys should make a zombie mall map in this style. Definitely. Nice job!
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby mibi on Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:20 am

Incandenza wrote:So I have a suggestion to tweak a couple of the neutrals, specifically Guards 005 and 501. Given the importance of gen pop and the yard (especially in 1v1s), I think having 5's in those positions, making a counterattack (or in the case of 005, access to the tower bombardment guards) that much more difficult, is kinda cheeky, since they're working for the defense. How about bumping them down to 2's?

(I suppose an argument could be made that all the cell block guards could be 2's as well, but for the moment, let's concentrate on the two in question)


I agree, But gen pop should remain at 3. 005 should go to 2. Also 601 and 602 should go down to 2, maybe 602 down to 1 as I have never seen the hole in play in any game.

Halmir wrote:First off love the map, it's got a great amount of complexity that will need a number of play throughs to get the hang of it properly. A couple of thoughts (sorry if they've been raised already, I'm not really gonna go through 55 pages of posts here!):

1) Triad and Aryan not easy to distinguish on first glance. Perhaps different shapes (square instead of circle for one etc) might help?

2) I'm playing game 3160061 where I started the round with 6 aryan brotherhood but the game only counted 4. I had Kaiser, Gregor, Karl in block D and Adolf, Max & Tyler in the yard. Is this a bug?

Great work anyways, enjoying playing it (this may in part be due to me winning on it currently :D) !


1. They are harder to distinguish do to the red color, though the black outside ring will surely tell them apart. also look at the names, Wilhelm and Big Kiko are in the same cell, which one might be japanese.

Incandenza wrote:
BENJIKAT IS DEAD wrote:I agree with all of the above - but think that there is also a strong argument for making all the bosses neutral 4 or 5 too.


Ah, there's this too, which would make drops considerably more even... One of the things I always liked about Arms Race is that, while my drop may not be great, I know for an absolute fact that my opponent will never start his first turn with more than 3 armies. Obviously that wouldn't be the case with prison riot given the vagaries of new fish, but forcing players to take bosses as opposed to just dropping them (and giving the edge to the guy going first in the case of a split cell) would be worth considering.


yes it's worth considering. but this would essential give the bosses to certain players. if you are in a cell with a neutral boss then its all yours, your blocked in. if you are in a cell with a boss that is another player, you can either take them out, or be taken out your self. I have seen many situations where a starting boss player will try to shank his cell mate, lose control of the shank and then get shanked and killed by the cell mate on the next turn. cell mate rivavly and dominance is what its all about.

Klaste wrote:The whole warden area gets you a pretty big bonus, and if you take all the prisoners out front (meaning outside 001), all you gotta do is hold a single point - 005 - for an easy +10 bonus (not including the sheer number of easy territories included within). Also not to mention the bombardment spots.. I'm not arguing against the bonus, I just think maybe it should be a bit harder to hold.

What my point is, I actually think the tunnel idea is a good one, purely because it's going to make whoever takes the warden at least have to guard two points instead of one.


P.S. You guys should make a zombie mall map in this style. Definitely. Nice job!


yep the warden is a big bonus, and with the gas chamber its even bigger. I have seen players win from the wardens angle many times. I have alsy seen players take over the wardn gas chamber and all those territories, then someone cashes a set, breaks in and takes out the warden leaving the other player stuck in the gas chamber with a -5 bonus and unable to deploy, essentially dead.

the thingh about the warden is that there is alot of neutrals to take over, 16 minium to hold that area, you also have to take out up to 18 armies. there is a lot to focus on, meanwhile, the prison is going grazy and the gangs are uniting. by the time you have the warden area on lockdown, you are going to need all the bonuses you can get to bring the rest of the prison under control.

i tihnk it works.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby mikersj on Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:27 pm

I think the 005 protecting the warden should stay at 5 neutral or at least 4. The guards are supposed to protect the warden, if they start out weaker than the prisoners, how fun is that? I think having a 4 or 5 in 005 means that individual gangs would need to work together to take out the warden. I think this will be the standard response once somebody has the warden. If the only help is a neutral 2 guard, then there is no help from the guards and the player who takes the warden is alone. In a 1v1 game, the player who isn't the warden, will have enough armies just with the number of territories to break down a 5 neutral.

I also think that the weapons in the central yard and the general population should start out as 2. Otherwise, the cost is too great in going for the weapon. If you think that you will lose 4 armies taking out the 4 neutrals, then you would need at least 4 armies to protect the weapon and then keeping 3 armies on the guy that took the weapon - that is 11 armies needed to get 1 army bonus. This is two turns worth of reinforcements at the start of a 5 person game. If you drop the weapons down to 2 neutrals, then you only need 2 armies lost 2 armies to hold and the original 3 for a total of 7. This is just 1 round of reinforcements. I think we would see a lot more fighting in the open areas for the weapons if they started off with 2 neutrals. Also, it gives another strategy play. While one player is getting a boss and building up the game. One player is collecting up the weapons and getting a similar bonus. With the weapons starting at 4, it takes twice as long to collect up the weapons as it does to build up a gang.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby mibi on Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:58 pm

mikersj wrote:I think the 005 protecting the warden should stay at 5 neutral or at least 4. The guards are supposed to protect the warden, if they start out weaker than the prisoners, how fun is that? I think having a 4 or 5 in 005 means that individual gangs would need to work together to take out the warden. I think this will be the standard response once somebody has the warden. If the only help is a neutral 2 guard, then there is no help from the guards and the player who takes the warden is alone. In a 1v1 game, the player who isn't the warden, will have enough armies just with the number of territories to break down a 5 neutral.

I also think that the weapons in the central yard and the general population should start out as 2. Otherwise, the cost is too great in going for the weapon. If you think that you will lose 4 armies taking out the 4 neutrals, then you would need at least 4 armies to protect the weapon and then keeping 3 armies on the guy that took the weapon - that is 11 armies needed to get 1 army bonus. This is two turns worth of reinforcements at the start of a 5 person game. If you drop the weapons down to 2 neutrals, then you only need 2 armies lost 2 armies to hold and the original 3 for a total of 7. This is just 1 round of reinforcements. I think we would see a lot more fighting in the open areas for the weapons if they started off with 2 neutrals. Also, it gives another strategy play. While one player is getting a boss and building up the game. One player is collecting up the weapons and getting a similar bonus. With the weapons starting at 4, it takes twice as long to collect up the weapons as it does to build up a gang.



I agree on both counts, I will put in the changes next week.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby Incandenza on Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:55 am

I strongly disagree with mikersj about Guard 005. Conceptual real life considerations aside, having so many neutrals between the yard and the bombarding guards only discourages the use of this strategically useful element, to the map's ultimate detriment. In larger games it's one thing, but for small games and 1v1s, that extra dice roll or two against 2 defender dice can be pretty damn important. I would argue that gameplay considerations would suggest a 2 (maybe a 3) for 005. If taking the warden is a big consideration (which wouldn't even be all that useful for someone who doesn't have a consolidated cellblock, or at least a bunch of guards that he's picked off), maybe bump his number up to 10, and lower 001 to a 2 as well. More armies required to take the warden from either side, but fewer armies required to move thru Administration (thus bringing the yard and the guys outside the gate closer together) and secure the bombarding guards.

mibi, I see your point about neutral gang leaders essentially handing said leader to one player. Could possibly an argument be made then to turn the pair o' guards outside each cellblock leader's cell (and maybe the pair o' guards immediately downstream) being turned into 2's, to bring the gang leaders into play a bit more? That way as many as six different prisoners is only 2 twos away from a gang leader, allowing for more conflict. You could even turn the main pair into ones and the adjacent pair into twos... but that might be a bit much, I dunno.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby mikersj on Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:45 am

Let me clarify my point about guard 005...
I wouldn't imagine that the warden would be taken from the inner yard. There would be too much fighting following the first person in through 005.
From the outer yard it will take about 5 rounds to get the warden, more if there is a fight in the outer yard. In round 1, consolidate your boss if you have one. In round 2, fight in the outer yard. Round 3 finish the outer yard. Round 4 get to the hall and round 5 take the warden.
At this point a player has fought through the 4n at 001 an the 5n at the warden. Other players have built up their gang and are getting +4 bonus. The player who takes the warden is only getting +1 for the warden and 001. At this point cards are being turned in and a weak 005 would leave the warden vulnerable.
The player who took the warden kill a 4n and a 5n it wouldn't be fair for a player from the yard to just walk through the weak 005 guard and take out the warden.
The player with the warden can get 2 weapons and 2 more guards plus the gas chamber for a +9 total bonus in 3-4 more turn. The race is on for the gangs to get to their +8 bonus. If the warden takes the gas chamber, there is a big risk, so the warden needs a lot of defense. Two gangs working together could easily break through the 5n at 005. The bombardment would be used to defend the warden from the gangs in the yard.
If the 005 guard is a 2n or 3n, then taking the gas chamber is too risky. There wouldn't be time to build up a defense around the warden. Without the gas chamber, he +9 bonus becomes a +4 bonus and the above strategy is not fruitful. By the time the warden is getting +4, the gang leaders are getting +8 and the warden is falling behind.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby Klaste on Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:19 am

I actually just fortified my yard drops onto one army, punched through 005, and took it from there.. card bonuses helping. It would be a far different strategy without cards, and without unlimited fortification.. I should probably try a game with those options.

Anyways, random idea, since someone said The Hole is almost never used... What if you instead split up The Hole into two cells annexed onto the back/side of each prison block? I'm not completely sure how this would effect gameplay, but I'm just trying to think outside the box here.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby yeti_c on Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:26 am

The hole is never used because it's too far away from the Warden - the only person that can get proper bonus from it... (Gangs can get 1 member out of there to complete their gang - but it's very rare for anyone to completely unite their gang)

Perhaps consider adding an entrance to the Hole from Guard 002? - this would also have the added "benefit" of giving a second entrance to the warden that other people are asking for?

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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby mikersj on Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:57 am

How about adding a door between 602 and the gas chamber, you may have to make the gas chamber bonus +2/-2 to make it easier for an attacker to get from the gas chamber to the warden.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby mibi on Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:16 pm

Ok here are my official change requests

1. The weapons in the yards have been changed to 2 neutrals to four to encourage their use as currently they are not worth the risk.
2. There is a door from guard 602 to guard 002. This is don't to provide a second exit to the warden/guard area. This will also encourage the use of the hole which is almost never used.
3. Guard 601 has been changed to 2 from 3 to encourage hole usage.
4. Guard 602 has been changed to 3 from 4 to encourage hole usage.
5. The Blade in the gen pop has been reduced from 4 to 3 to encourage earlier use.
6. The gas chamber has been changed from 6 to 5 to encourage use.

The main reason for these changes is to encourage the use of some un used elements and liven up the play a bit.

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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby CunningImp on Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:14 am

While playing this board, I see a major problem with the balance of gameplay in the General Population area. If a person is able to capture and hold the three New Fish and Big Smoke (and his gang members), they can pretty much control the game from that point forward due to the amount of bonus armies.

There needs to be some decentralization of this area. Also, there needs to be another way into the area so there isn't a "choke point" at the doorway. Maybe there should be an "escape" tunnel from the right side of the general population to either outside the fence (attackable by the inmates outside the front) or the yard (attackable from the yard).

Perhaps another way to balance gameplay within the cell blocks is maybe to make a bonus for having all the guards within a cell block. This would give the player a reason to expand within the cell block, rather than just looking for "gang members".
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby BaldAdonis on Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:46 am

mibi wrote:2. There is a door from guard 602 to guard 002. This is don't to provide a second exit to the warden/guard area. This will also encourage the use of the hole which is almost never used.
Thanks for that. It always seemed like a natural connection that was shut for some reason.
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