Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby Jiron7 on Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:14 pm

I think the bonuses need to be toned down a little, I was playing and by the end I had won with 350+ armies on one territory unused. Other than the unnecessarily large bonuses once you really got rolling (Snowball effect, really. Once I got control of about two or three cell blocks, I had so many armies that I just another cell block every turn.), the map is very fun. And I didn't really mind the bonus issues, but it probably bugged my opponents.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby samuelc812 on Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:54 am

I don't think they should i for one like playing with large amounts of armies :)
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby mibi on Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:51 pm

mibi wrote:Ok here are my official change requests

1. The weapons in the yards have been changed to 2 neutrals to four to encourage their use as currently they are not worth the risk.
2. There is a door from guard 602 to guard 002. This is don't to provide a second exit to the warden/guard area. This will also encourage the use of the hole which is almost never used.
3. Guard 601 has been changed to 2 from 3 to encourage hole usage.
4. Guard 602 has been changed to 3 from 4 to encourage hole usage.
5. The Blade in the gen pop has been reduced from 4 to 3 to encourage earlier use.
6. The gas chamber has been changed from 6 to 5 to encourage use.

The main reason for these changes is to encourage the use of some un used elements and liven up the play a bit.

Click image to enlarge.
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so like... what needs to get done to get these changes in? yeti? andy? lack? Bueller?
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby yeti_c on Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:05 am

Ya - I need to change some XML - I'll get on it shortly.

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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby Ogrecrusher on Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:00 am

How do the changes affect matches currently in play?
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby yeti_c on Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:16 am

Ogrecrusher wrote:How do the changes affect matches currently in play?


Neutral values won't affect anything - new connections will be opened up.

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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby e_i_pi on Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:30 am

Great map, I've been playing it a bit recently. Which leads me to an observation. A fair few circles aren't centered (on the small map). I understand that it's difficult to centre exactly properly, as the small map is anti-aliased, but some of these are obviously out.

Outside
Dominik

Cell Block D
Joey (compared to Karl)
Ricky (compared to Roy)

Cell Block C
Ted

Cell Block B
General Hong

Yard
Hammer
Ace
Jin
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby waseemalim on Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:22 pm

I would suggest increasing the warden + gas chamber bonus to +8 and keep gashamber - warden at -5.

Reason: It just isnt worth it as it stands.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby Incandenza on Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:26 pm

I still feel like guard 501 should be a 1 or 2...
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby GenuineEarlGrey on Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:21 pm

Thanks for this map... its a lot of fun to play.

After a one 1v1 game on it, I'm guessing that it would be better with more players.

The was one bit when my opponent and I got confused. From the map we thought holding a whole gang won you the game!
:?
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby laci_mae on Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:22 am

mibi wrote:oi,

The legend clearly states, "Hole the gang leader AND 6 members"

So, the gang leader, 1 and 6 other members is 7 members. You held the gang leader and 5 others.


Great map mibi!

Let me throw in my two cents on this continued confusion with the gang bonuses. The legend is worded clearly, but BOB is not worded so clearly. If BOB would say "Latin Kings + 4 members (1)" instead of "5 Latin Kings (1)" it would make a lot more sense. The other kink is that BOB counts the members even if you don't hold the leader. This is helpful in deciding whether to take the leader, but also confusing when trying to sort out exactly what BOB is saying your bonuses are. I, however, have no idea what type of XML genius is needed to accomplish these semantic improvements.

Best,
Laci
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby yeti_c on Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:41 am

laci_mae wrote:
mibi wrote:oi,

The legend clearly states, "Hole the gang leader AND 6 members"

So, the gang leader, 1 and 6 other members is 7 members. You held the gang leader and 5 others.


Great map mibi!

Let me throw in my two cents on this continued confusion with the gang bonuses. The legend is worded clearly, but BOB is not worded so clearly. If BOB would say "Latin Kings + 4 members (1)" instead of "5 Latin Kings (1)" it would make a lot more sense. The other kink is that BOB counts the members even if you don't hold the leader. This is helpful in deciding whether to take the leader, but also confusing when trying to sort out exactly what BOB is saying your bonuses are. I, however, have no idea what type of XML genius is needed to accomplish these semantic improvements.

Best,
Laci


Nowt to do with BOB - that's to do with the XML naming structure...

Also - if you're also not quite sure how to use BOB correctly I suggest you read the help file - BOB clearly shows that "4 Latin Kings [1]" has a 1 bonus - whereas "3 Latin Kings" doesn't have a bonus.

C.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby mibi on Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:49 am

e_i_pi wrote:Great map, I've been playing it a bit recently. Which leads me to an observation. A fair few circles aren't centered (on the small map). I understand that it's difficult to centre exactly properly, as the small map is anti-aliased, but some of these are obviously out.


It's prison, some of the inmates are... unstable. Their circles are not quite even circles which makes centering rather impossible.

waseemalim wrote:I would suggest increasing the warden + gas chamber bonus to +8 and keep gashamber - warden at -5.

Reason: It just isnt worth it as it stands.


Really? The thing about the gaschamber and warden is that if you spend your time going after the warden, and then securing the guard area, chances are you won't have many gang leaders to increase your bonus with. So the +5 becomes very valuable. It is a risky move for sure but a bit nessasary if you really hope to dominate from the warden. I am open to a +6 or +7 but +8 might be a bit high. Though if the map changes go through and there is a new entrance to the guard area, closer to the gas chamber, this increases the risk of the gas chamber, so the reward should go up.

I would like to hear others peoples thoughs on this though.

Incandenza wrote:I still feel like guard 501 should be a 1 or 2...


Any reason? I like the idea of gen pop being kind of isolated, a pressure cooker. It is hard to get external forces in there, so if you don't maintain your reputation in the gen pop, then you are a bit fucked. If it were 2 or 1, then people would neglect the gen pop until it was time to rush in from the yard.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby laci_mae on Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:22 pm

yeti_c wrote:
laci_mae wrote:
mibi wrote:oi,

The legend clearly states, "Hole the gang leader AND 6 members"

So, the gang leader, 1 and 6 other members is 7 members. You held the gang leader and 5 others.


Great map mibi!

Let me throw in my two cents on this continued confusion with the gang bonuses. The legend is worded clearly, but BOB is not worded so clearly. If BOB would say "Latin Kings + 4 members (1)" instead of "5 Latin Kings (1)" it would make a lot more sense. The other kink is that BOB counts the members even if you don't hold the leader. This is helpful in deciding whether to take the leader, but also confusing when trying to sort out exactly what BOB is saying your bonuses are. I, however, have no idea what type of XML genius is needed to accomplish these semantic improvements.

Best,
Laci


Nowt to do with BOB - that's to do with the XML naming structure...

Also - if you're also not quite sure how to use BOB correctly I suggest you read the help file - BOB clearly shows that "4 Latin Kings [1]" has a 1 bonus - whereas "3 Latin Kings" doesn't have a bonus.

C.


Why thanks C. I am perfectly capable of understanding BOB. :P I was merely suggesting that many of the concerns raised by others indicate that the wording of the bonuses per BOB is slightly confusing.

L
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby LPSanta on Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:08 am

Agreeing with one of the previous posts, there might be a counting bug. I'll monitor it as a game I'm in progresses, but here is what I saw so far:

I had the boss for La Cosa Nostra, "Don Vichi"

At the beginning of the turn I also had the following Cosa Nostra (in addition to the boss):
1) Frankie Bones
2) Paulie
3) Lil Joey
4) Saul
5) Vito

The Game Log reads that I received 1 troops for holding 4 Cosa Nostra, when I actually held 5.

Of course the bonus for three, four, or five is the same.
(+1 for 3 members, and +4 for 6 members).

I took another Cosa Nostra that turn for six, so I might see next turn if I get the proper +4 bonus for six next round....

UPDATE: When I captured one more for six Cosa Nostra (in addition to boss), I received the proper +4 bonus.
Last edited by LPSanta on Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby Incandenza on Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:03 pm

mibi wrote:
Incandenza wrote:I still feel like guard 501 should be a 1 or 2...


Any reason? I like the idea of gen pop being kind of isolated, a pressure cooker. It is hard to get external forces in there, so if you don't maintain your reputation in the gen pop, then you are a bit fucked. If it were 2 or 1, then people would neglect the gen pop until it was time to rush in from the yard.


Well, given the importance of gen pop, it just seems cheeky that someone trying to break the big smoke bonus would have to go through an extra neutral 5 to get back into gen pop. Basically it only hurts the guy trying to get in, because once he goes through and kills the guard, then whoever was already in gen pop can just roll that advance back up. Besides, even if the guard were a 1, I doubt that people would neglect gen pop.

I just want to make it a wee bit harder to hold gen pop given that it's the only cell block that can be locked down early in the game, thus giving a huge advantage to whoever comes away with it.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby mibi on Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:58 am

Incandenza wrote:
mibi wrote:
Incandenza wrote:I still feel like guard 501 should be a 1 or 2...


Any reason? I like the idea of gen pop being kind of isolated, a pressure cooker. It is hard to get external forces in there, so if you don't maintain your reputation in the gen pop, then you are a bit fucked. If it were 2 or 1, then people would neglect the gen pop until it was time to rush in from the yard.


Well, given the importance of gen pop, it just seems cheeky that someone trying to break the big smoke bonus would have to go through an extra neutral 5 to get back into gen pop. Basically it only hurts the guy trying to get in, because once he goes through and kills the guard, then whoever was already in gen pop can just roll that advance back up. Besides, even if the guard were a 1, I doubt that people would neglect gen pop.

I just want to make it a wee bit harder to hold gen pop given that it's the only cell block that can be locked down early in the game, thus giving a huge advantage to whoever comes away with it.


ok well i can go for a 3 for guard 501. ofcourse, i have no idea how to make changes to the maps and such. I suggested changes a few moons ago, but you know how it is..
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby yeti_c on Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:01 am

I was waiting for the discussion to come to a consensus - and for some of the games I have on the map to finish!!!

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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby psilotum on Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:36 pm

First, I'd like to say, I'm starting to really like this map. It took a while to become familiar, but it has some interesting twists.

I've been playing 1 on 1 games on this map, and the starting bonuses vary wildly. Sometimes the game is over based on the drop. One idea I had would be to start all the gang leaders as neutral. That way no player would ever start with a large bonus.

I didn't see this specifically discussed, but I didn't search too hard.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby mibi on Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:43 pm

psilotum wrote:First, I'd like to say, I'm starting to really like this map. It took a while to become familiar, but it has some interesting twists.

I've been playing 1 on 1 games on this map, and the starting bonuses vary wildly. Sometimes the game is over based on the drop. One idea I had would be to start all the gang leaders as neutral. That way no player would ever start with a large bonus.

I didn't see this specifically discussed, but I didn't search too hard.


thats a good idea.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby Incandenza on Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:20 am

mibi wrote:
psilotum wrote:First, I'd like to say, I'm starting to really like this map. It took a while to become familiar, but it has some interesting twists.

I've been playing 1 on 1 games on this map, and the starting bonuses vary wildly. Sometimes the game is over based on the drop. One idea I had would be to start all the gang leaders as neutral. That way no player would ever start with a large bonus.

I didn't see this specifically discussed, but I didn't search too hard.


thats a good idea.


You talked me out of neutral bosses at the bottom of pg 55. :D
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby waseemalim on Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:30 am

neutral bosses may be a good idea -- but then again, if you have the inmate in the same cell, ie diablo for el burro, it comes down to the same randomness. In many ways its prolly worse, because then no one knows who has which boss in a fog game (which I find to be the ideal setting for this map). If you shared the inmate, someone would atleast know.

Mibi, I dont think 8 is too high a bonus -- you spend a lot of armies on trying to get the gas chamber and warden (and it takes a LONG time) -- even if you are coming from the outside, you prolly have to kill 9-15 player armies. By then most people are getting huge bonuses or have downsized you inside the prison. Also once someone takes out the warden you are literally screwed. I feel strongly that this gamble deserves a better return and I insist on +8 -- especially since you are opening up another door there.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby BENJIKAT IS DEAD on Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:18 am

the only times that my opponents have gone for the gas chamber, I have stranded them with -5 very easily.... i agree that the upside could do with being higher.

Neutral bosses I don't like.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby mibi on Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:52 am

waseemalim wrote:neutral bosses may be a good idea -- but then again, if you have the inmate in the same cell, ie diablo for el burro, it comes down to the same randomness. In many ways its prolly worse, because then no one knows who has which boss in a fog game (which I find to be the ideal setting for this map). If you shared the inmate, someone would atleast know.

Mibi, I dont think 8 is too high a bonus -- you spend a lot of armies on trying to get the gas chamber and warden (and it takes a LONG time) -- even if you are coming from the outside, you prolly have to kill 9-15 player armies. By then most people are getting huge bonuses or have downsized you inside the prison. Also once someone takes out the warden you are literally screwed. I feel strongly that this gamble deserves a better return and I insist on +8 -- especially since you are opening up another door there.


righty well with neutral bosses it would still come down to who is their cell mate, but at least people wouldn't start with the boss +3 or something. i think someone was complaining about that. I'd be willing to go +7 on the gas chamber. I just dont want a situation where if someone has the warden and gas chamber, after one turn they can lock it up with huge bonues, then its all over. the difference between +8 and +7 is marginal but may be a factor in that.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby Incandenza on Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:13 pm

Here's sort of a weird thought: what if BOTH the bosses and their respective cellmates started neutral? Then you knock down the neutral value of surrounding guards (maybe even all four in the area) to 2 or 1, set the boss neutral value at 5 and the cellmate at 2, and then it's everyone into the pool. That way you have six potential spots close enough to the boss to make a play for him and no one starts with a big gang bonus.
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