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new railroad map hard to figure out

Postby richardgarr on Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:35 pm

I am playing the new railroad map and am having a hell of a hard time knowing what is what......maybe I am missing the obvious, but so far I am just guessing at what and where my armies get deployed and attack...please help with this...I am not the only one to have this problem so far!!!! :? :? :?
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Postby Coleman on Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:39 pm

We know. This was the most talked about thing. There wasn't really a great way to do it that made things clear for everyone.

There are rules to movement that you could maybe learn, but it's not clear quick enough without experience in freestyle.

Color Rails can only attack adjacent along their own color. Interecting rails are a little different, but it is still adjacent.

Stations Each portion of a station can only be attacked by rails of its color and other station portions in the same station.

Actually, I'm not sure there is more then that... Oh wait one more.

Names The first part is always the name of the specific place. It also includes which line it is on, which is a 3 letter code most often made up of the first 3 letters of the bonus name. City of New Orleans is most confusing, that's a line, not the city.
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Postby edbeard on Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:49 pm

this is a map where having BOB is a great help
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Postby oaktown on Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:01 pm

I'm only on round two of a game on this map, and so far I can tell that it's smart in its gameplay and beautiful to look at. But while the territory names are well thought out and somewhat helpful, the map is still very dependent on subtle colors. As one of the site's colorblind users, I'm constantly going back to the XML to see which territories make up which bonuses. Chicago is especially tough, as I'm just guessing which station I'm placing on and attacking. :(

I know, my bad for going away all summer and entirely missing this map go through the Foundry process.
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Postby DiM on Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:10 pm

oaktown wrote:I'm only on round two of a game on this map, and so far I can tell that it's smart in its gameplay and beautiful to look at. But while the territory names are well thought out and somewhat helpful, the map is still very dependent on subtle colors. As one of the site's colorblind users, I'm constantly going back to the XML to see which territories make up which bonuses. Chicago is especially tough, as I'm just guessing which station I'm placing on and attacking. :(

I know, my bad for going away all summer and entirely missing this map go through the Foundry process.


why don't you use the greasemonkey? it shows all the armies with colorblind indicators plus it has a text map feature that shows what borders what and what are the bonuses made of. i think it would be much easier than to look at the xml.
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Postby Seinfreak on Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:28 pm

Honestly, how this map made it into production really boggles my mind. Look at the map and tell me how to distinguish:

NOL New Orleans SUN
NOL New Orleans CIT
NOL New Orleans CRE

Without using BOB. What the hell do SUN, CIT and CRE stand for? And how do I know that using the map legend?

Such a shame that a map like this with such obvious gameplay issues makes it into production when other maps are bogged down in the foundry process over arguments over 1 px vs 2 px borders. :?
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Postby Coleman on Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:33 pm

I quote from the bottom right of the map.

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Station names are: 3 letter station name, 3 first letters of the service line.

NOL New Orleans - This is the Station Name, both the 3 letter code used on the map and full name of the station.

SUN - This is the Sunset Limited line
CIT - This is the City of New Orleans line
CRE - This is the Crescent line

So, if you take the full thing of one of them together.

NOL New Orleans SUN, you should know that it is the New Orleans station of the Sunset Limited service line.
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Postby Seinfreak on Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:36 pm

Wow, so that information IS there! :oops:

I swear, I read and re-read that legend 3 or 4 times and overlooked that.
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Postby cairnswk on Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:42 pm

oaktown wrote:I'm only on round two of a game on this map, and so far I can tell that it's smart in its gameplay and beautiful to look at. But while the territory names are well thought out and somewhat helpful, the map is still very dependent on subtle colors. As one of the site's colorblind users, I'm constantly going back to the XML to see which territories make up which bonuses. Chicago is especially tough, as I'm just guessing which station I'm placing on and attacking. :(

I know, my bad for going away all summer and entirely missing this map go through the Foundry process.


oaktown...thanks for bringing that to my attention. I am constantly trying to ensure that colours used are from the colourblind palettes only.
there are modifications that can be done to the map which will make the chicago station easier for use, and i will discuss them at length with WM this weekend. unfortunately, WM is on leave this weekend so nothing will probably happen until next week should we decide on modification.
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Postby cairnswk on Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:47 pm

Seinfreak wrote:Wow, so that information IS there! :oops:

I swear, I read and re-read that legend 3 or 4 times and overlooked that.


That's OK Seinfreak....no probs, and thanks to Coleman for his understanding of the xml....kind of helps when you work for a railroad i guess. :)

Pleased, Seinfreak, that you could drop by...don't be a stranger to the Foundry, there is always lots going on, and your input in future maps may alleviate small challenges like this. :)
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Postby oaktown on Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:48 pm

DiM wrote:why don't you use the greasemonkey? it shows all the armies with colorblind indicators plus it has a text map feature that shows what borders what and what are the bonuses made of. i think it would be much easier than to look at the xml.


I've been using the colorblind greasemonkey script since probably January... I'm finally upgrading to BOB because of this map.
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Postby Night Strike on Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:03 pm

It seems to me that the teal army color is harder to distinguish compared to neutral because of the grayish army boxes.
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Postby sfhbballnut on Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:12 pm

Such a cool map, great job
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Postby casper on Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:29 pm

Can I suggest a color change for the lines? Something I noticed while playing that bothers me. Some rail lines have colors in their names but are not colored appropriately. e.g. The Silver Meteor line is not colored silver but the Texas Eagle is. And the Cardinal line is not colored red but the Silver Meteor is. My suggestion:

Silver Meteor: Red -> Silver
Cardinal: Pink -> Red
Texas Eagle: Silver -> Pink

If it is a pain to change then obviously don't worry about it. It might be too confusing to switch it now that the map has gone live.

Otherwise..I'm having fun on this map so far. Great job guys. :D
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Postby cairnswk on Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:31 am

xzmattzx wrote:It's "SacrAmento", not "Sacremento". I noticed that in the attack menu.



Thanks xzmattzx....this fix file

http://h1.ripway.com/cairnswk/Rail_USA_ ... to_fix.xml

has been PMed to lackattack...sorry it took so long. :)
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Postby ga7 on Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:00 am

Just wanted to say, great work. I love the gameplay on this map, it's becoming one of my favorites.
I think the color changes to make it a bit less confusing is a very good idea, if it's doable. In addition to Casper's list, maybe Crescent in yellow and Sunset Limited in orange also?
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Postby cairnswk on Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:12 am

ga7 wrote:Just wanted to say, great work. I love the gameplay on this map, it's becoming one of my favorites.
I think the color changes to make it a bit less confusing is a very good idea, if it's doable. In addition to Casper's list, maybe Crescent in yellow and Sunset Limited in orange also?


ga7...and casper...thanks for those comments....WM will be amking that decision if it happens. I am flexible on this issue. :)
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Postby hulmey on Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:18 am

i really like this map but its very confusing and i think the labelling could be done alot better....Maybe you could choose lettering and numbering....

I.e, Denver would be D1, D2,D3 and so on!!! It would require a small change but make it so easier to play
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Postby cairnswk on Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:38 am

hulmey wrote:i really like this map but its very confusing and i think the labelling could be done alot better....Maybe you could choose lettering and numbering....

I.e, Denver would be D1, D2,D3 and so on!!! It would require a small change but make it so easier to play


Sorry hulmey, changing that at this time will involve re-writting the xml completely which i am not prepared to do.

also, the same style of naming will apply on the rail europe map.

these are pretty standard three letter codes for all cities in the world.
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Postby hulmey on Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:58 am

Thats quite disappointing because they both are gonna end up on the bottom with ireland and the rest.

How they are presented at the moment it just downright confusing!!
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Postby cairnswk on Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:03 am

hulmey wrote:Thats quite disappointing because they both are gonna end up on the bottom with ireland and the rest.

How they are presented at the moment it just downright confusing!!


So far to my knowledge...you are the only one representing this viewpoint.
I thought a simple three letter code was very easy to grasp, and certainly different.
Maybe they will end up at the bottom of the heap, buy they are not here to compete with other maps, but to offer variations on style and gameplay, and i beleive they achieve that very well, just like the oil tap in pearl harbor does. :wink:

A bit off topic...are you ready to publish stats in our map movement this weekend?
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Postby hulmey on Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:03 am

yeah the code is very simple and effective but when you come to the station and there are 3 stations in 1 its very hard to tell which is which without looking at the legend and then its still really difficulty.

We got a saying in my profession and its also a fact : 96% of customer's dont complain they just go elsewhere!!
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Postby cairnswk on Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:26 am

hulmey wrote:yeah the code is very simple and effective but when you come to the station and there are 3 stations in 1 its very hard to tell which is which without looking at the legend and then its still really difficulty.

We got a saying in my profession and its also a fact : 96% of customer's dont complain they just go elsewhere!!


Not wanting to start another war here hulmey....So do you suggest that everything changes just because you can't understand something.
Why don't u take the learning curve!
As has been said before "you don't have to play a map if you don't like it."
Now, if you can rustle up at least 100 members who want the change made and they post in this thread, then i would be willing to listen, but i am not going to change things simply on your say so and perhaps what i consider to be your inability to cope with a certain concept.
You had a chance in the thread when this was being developed to have a very good say and put your case forward....just like you did with PH.
But i didn't see you around too much when the xml was being discussed.
And we have a saying in my profession that if you don't like the goods there's the door, there will be someone to replace you, simnply out of sheer curiosity.
I have said before Hulmey, i don't create these maps to win popularity contests.
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Postby superkarn on Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:53 am

I just played this map for the first time. Even though I didnt win, I enjoyed it. Very interesting. Thanks!

With that said, I played it with a friend who is colorblind. And he had a really hard time reading the legend because the service lines are color based. Maybe you can modify the map (no need to touch the xml) to clarify that up a bit?

Keep up the good work! :)
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Postby Coleman on Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:57 pm

When I shoved it through a colourblind filter using the kind of colourblindness that is most common (protan) I noticed that there seem to be 3 groups of difficulty. I'd call them blue, yellow, and brown, where all the roads in each group were hard to distinguish from others in the same group.

Not sure how you could help this. :?
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