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Postby oaktown on Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:39 pm

Complete redo!

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I've expanded the map area to include all of Berlin. This makes the map far more appealing visually, but I was having trouble with the break-down of regions until I arrived upon the idea of giving a bonus for controlling a majority of the zones within a sector, rather than for controlling the entire region as in traditional maps.

I think this is brilliant because:
1. it allows me to stay with the four Sectors represented,
2. it will make for more open play, as players can be creative about putting their own "continent" together
3. it encourages players to actively fight over one sector, as just one territory can mean the difference between a bonus or nothing,
4. it would make for fun doubles play, as partners could work together to secure a sector and still receive a bonus for the player with the majority of zones, and
5. it's never been done.

As it might be too easy to fluke a bonus at the start, so four regions will begin neutral - Mitte and the four airfields - greatly reducing the chance of a lucky start.

There are a few cheap bonuses, but with the airfields starting neutral you'd have to seriously weigh the cost of grabbing one early.

The graphics are a work in progress.
Last edited by oaktown on Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby edbeard on Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:55 pm

very interesting. I think the majority bonus system is quite a good idea.

One thing I don't like is the number of starting territories.

14 russian + 5 french + 11 american + 9 british = 39 - 4 neutral = 35

possibly add 1 more for a nice round number? of 36 to start?
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Postby oaktown on Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:03 am

edbeard wrote:very interesting. I think the majority bonus system is quite a good idea.

One thing I don't like is the number of starting territories.

14 russian + 5 french + 11 american + 9 british = 39 - 4 neutral = 35

possibly add 1 more for a nice round number? of 36 to start?

Actually there are 15 zones in the Russian Sector, making the map 36 to start... evenly divisible by 2, 3, 4, and 6. You probably didn't count Mitte, which I have overlooked a half dozen times myself.
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Postby edbeard on Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:07 am

that's exactly what I did. tripled checked even haha
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Postby oaktown on Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:48 pm

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As I'm getting close to no feedback I can either let it rot or just carry on, and I'm enjoying this one so I'll carry on. I'm trying to capture the look of a cold war-era map. The patterns on the sectors and around the outside were lifted from maps from the 1950s. The simple lines denoted attack routes are actually growing on me - they look so low tech it fits. I still intend to come up with a better wall than the black line, as it's the central feature of the map, as well as to make the legend fit the look.
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Postby Gnome on Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:26 am

Well I think all map suffers from a 'No feedback'
But I liked this map better in your first redo...
You added a layer over all territories and I don't really like the lines and stuff...
You see, the first one was far more better to overlook, the names were easier to read and it just looked better...that's what I think, I like your map idea but I think the plain greyish tints with the outer glow was better...

Maybe you can keep the lines at the outside of the map but get rid of the others...

And the border of Kreuzberg with friedrichshain crosses the water...maybe this has geographical explenations but can't you make the river the border so moving the black line under the river? I think it will look better

Oh and maybe you can try to remove the outerglow of the river ends...so it's like the river doesnt end there...
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Postby oaktown on Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:19 am

Gnome wrote:Well I think all map suffers from a 'No feedback'

Tell me about it... one side-effect of creating the "map ideas" sub-forum is few people come here. I guess it's you and me, gnome.

Gnome wrote:You added a layer over all territories and I don't really like the lines and stuff... You see, the first one was far more better to overlook, the names were easier to read and it just looked better...that's what I think, I like your map idea but I think the plain greyish tints with the outer glow was better...

Noted. I love the old patterns, but I'll take more feedback on it and make a decision later.

Gnome wrote:And the border of Kreuzberg with friedrichshain crosses the water...maybe this has geographical explenations but can't you make the river the border so moving the black line under the river? I think it will look better

It's historically accurate - the Wall crossed the river in a few places, including right there. I'll have to double check the crossing points, however, to make sure they are accurate. And I've left out at least one for game playability.

Gnome wrote:Oh and maybe you can try to remove the outerglow of the river ends...so it's like the river doesnt end there...

I'll take a look. Thanks.
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Postby Incandenza on Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:37 pm

I love the concept. Ever since keyogi revamped middle east, I've been thinking how cool it would be to have a black-and-white map.

But I see a couple of issues. One of them is historical. You use the term 'airlift', yet the actual Berlin Airlift went down in 1948-49. I'm not sure if this means all that much, but as an anal-retentive history buff it's a bit off-putting. Potential solutions that I can see are to change 'airlift' to 'airfield', or (more drastically), change the map title to Berlin 1948 and maybe adopt the style of a WW2-era bombing map. Not like qwert's iwo jima, necessarily. GIS didn't turn up anything all that awesome, but I imagine that sort of template would exist in a reference tome of some variety.

I'm also not wild about the textures. I'm sure they're authentic, but they look a little too much like the sorts of textures a young Incandenza would mess around with on a Mac Classic in 1991. Perhaps a better way would be to have the continents in various shades of gray with heavier borders and add continent watermarks...

I dig the new bonus system and the overall theme, tho. Keep going with the map. I like your style, but chinese checkers drivers me nuts! :D
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Postby oaktown on Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:20 pm

Incandenza wrote:You use the term 'airlift', yet the actual Berlin Airlift went down in 1948-49.

I know, but I was hoping nobody would call me on it. :oops:

Incandenza wrote:I'm also not wild about the textures. I'm sure they're authentic, but they look a little too much like the sorts of textures a young Incandenza would mess around with on a Mac Classic in 1991. Perhaps a better way would be to have the continents in various shades of gray with heavier borders and add continent watermarks...

That was where I started, and there's still an early version on page 2 (I think), but it looks flat and doesn't capture the look I'm going for. I'd like to sell you on the old-school textures, so I'll work on them and see what I can't come up with.

But yeah, it kinda reminds me of the textures from the black and white Risk game I had on my Mac SE.

Incandenza wrote:I dig the new bonus system and the overall theme, tho. Keep going with the map. I like your style, but chinese checkers drivers me nuts! :D

I consider Chinese Checkers to be my starter map, like a starter house or a starter marriage.
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Re: Berlin, Cold War

Postby Simonov on Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:52 pm

oaktown wrote:This is the latest version of the map... please check the latest posts for my thoughts, hopes, and dreams.

Image

The basics:
40 territories.
4 territories begin neutral: Mitte and the three airfields (Tegel, Tempelhoff, Gatow)
Wall (currently shown as a black line) and river are unpassable borders, except where I've dropped arrows (I'll work on something that looks better)
Current size: 800 x 600.
Bonuses awarded for:
• holding any airfield
• holding all western checkpoints
• holding all russian checkpoints
• holding a MAJORITY of territories within a Sector

I like the idea of giving a bonus for holding the majority of a sector rather than the entire thing because:
1. it allows me to stay with the four historically accurate sectors,
2. it will make for more open play, as players can be creative about putting their own "continent" together
3. it encourages players to actively fight over one sector, as just one territory can mean the difference between a bonus or nothing,
4. it would make for interesting doubles play, as partners could work together to secure a sector and still receive a bonus for the player with the majority of zones, and
5. it's never been done.

Graphics are slowly coming along... I'm trying to make it look like a map that could've been printed in 1962.

Tear it apart!! :)


wow. a real good one! nice work!
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Postby reverend_kyle on Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:55 pm

this is shaping up to be a kick ass map.
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Postby johloh on Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:57 pm

first off change your sig and dont apologize for chinese checkers. pff. theres a time and place for symmetrical maps and i do want to play them sometimes.

ok here are some of my initial opinions...its only preliminary as i feel like im still trying to wrap my head around the gameplay of this...

im going to hold off on commenting on graphics as all as i dont think thats what youre really looking for comments on...though i do think black and white with colored army numbers would have a nice look to it...If youre going for a 'newsprint' kind of look to it you might want to consider adding some brownish tones to the whole thing to give it a sepia oldish paper kinda look to it...

-i really like the majority idea for the countries...however...bonuses seem kinda high for just the majority...+2 to french seems like way too much...and so on, they all feel high to me. I feel like those bonuses would be good if you had to hold the whole continent, but since you dont they should be lower...or you could even think about giving a bonus for holding a majority (small) and then a higher bonus for the whole thing.
-checkpoint bonuses seem high to me too...+3 is too much for holding 3 countries, especially the russian one as it is even easier to hold as its connected.
-i like the airline bonus and that youll have to attack neutrals to get it, giving you a bonus but wasting armies...+1 seems too much to me too, maybe two gives a bonus or something?
-i feel like the russian sector should either just be russian, or the others should be french sector, american sector, and british sector...or other similar words.

to sum it up...i think the bonuses are too high. i like your majority idea as its pretty cool and definetly new.
i think itll take a little work to make sure that it translates to good gameplay, but it should...and it kinda makes the continents morphable (which isnt a word) but allows each game to be totally unique and avoid the 'go for australia and win in classic' routine, where you play each map the same way once you 'figure' it out.

phew. done.
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Postby WidowMakers on Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:01 pm

Well First off I am only going to talk about graphics. :D

Here are a couple pictures that show what I feel the "printing" style might look like.

To get thee old printed map look, you might want to take your base layer and add some grunge mattes to it. That way the overall background of the map is slightly different but not to drastic. Like the newsprint in the first picture. It has a very slight variation in texture but not just random noise added to the layer.

As for the rest of the map. I would try to make it without the use of outer glows and edge gradients. That might make it look more authentic and of the era you are looking for. Plus on EVERY LAYER (even text) I would add a grunge mask. These masks give an old age effect by blanking out small portions of detail and "crispness" that the map currently has.

Look at picture 2. Some of the black text has cracked or faded off, revealing the paper underneath. That is what the grunge mask will help achieve.

I think you have a great start in achieving the style you want. You just need to add a little extra "junk (or take away I guess) to make the map look old and worn.

I made a quick matte and no matte picture to show you what I mean

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Postby unriggable on Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:03 pm

You should make it like Sn City where the key items are colored but most everything else is in B&W
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Postby oaktown on Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:35 pm

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Thanks for the input... this is a minor update with the following changes:
• down-grading of bonuses as per johloh's suggestions... I like the idea of keeping the airfield bonus at one per airfield though
• took the glow off the rivers and the outer border
• started a proper legend
• made me a signature! Kept it simple. Go A's!

There's still a lot to do - come up with a wall, an alternative to the white arrows, clean up the sector textures, etc.

My next project will be to play around with making it look dated, as per Widowmaker's suggestions. It'll take some experimenting - I'm still getting used to all the features they've added to Photoshop since I learned on ver. 3.0. :?
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Postby cairnswk on Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:27 am

Oaktown...nice going! Like the map a lot.

Did you think of adding perhaps the most famous landmark after the wall and the Brandenburg Gates....Checkpoint Charlie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checkpoint_Charlie
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Postby oaktown on Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:59 am

cairnswk wrote:Oaktown...nice going! Like the map a lot.

Did you think of adding perhaps the most famous landmark after the wall and the Brandenburg Gates....Checkpoint Charlie

Thanks... Checkpoint Charlie is there - right now it's just the white arrow between Kreuzberg and Mitte. I haven't worked out how I want to represent the checkpoints yet.
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Postby DiM on Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:36 am

oaktown, use this tutorial here to make it look like the map is part of an article in an old newspaper.

http://www.tutorialized.com/view/tutorial/Torn-Newspaper-Effect/3830
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Postby hulmey on Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:17 am

I like the way this map is progressing. I think you have found the right road for this map. Congrats. One small comment on gameplay...

The Russian sector is going to be so hard to get and iots going to become a dead zone with all the players going for the soldiers or the continent with 5 countries....

You could slip the russian army zone in 2 or move the airefields over to the russian side?!?!
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Postby oaktown on Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:19 am

hulmey wrote:I like the way this map is progressing. I think you have found the right road for this map. Congrats.

Thanks hulmey.

hulmey wrote:The Russian sector is going to be so hard to get and iots going to become a dead zone with all the players going for the soldiers or the continent with 5 countries....

You could slip the russian army zone in 2 or move the airefields over to the russian side?!?!


Hmm, nice catch. Players will certainly go after the checkpoint bonus, as it currently stands as a +2 for just holding just 3 zones. And I think that the Russian Sector Control bonus will be tempting, since if you nab the southern half you can hold eight sectors with just two borders. So if you've got one player in the south and one holding the checkpoints, the potential dead area is the northern four zones, as holding the northern half of the sector would require defending too many borders.

Moving an airfield into the east would be historically inaccurate - the airfields in the western sectors played a vital role in the city from 1948 onwards as the only sources of supply. Cutting the Russian Sector up would ruin the historical simplicity of the design.

I think the solution may be to tweak the borders in the northern part of the sector so that it would be viable to go after it; the northrn half should be attractive to the player that already has the checkpoints. My hope for this map is to see multiple players duking it out within the sector to grab that one territory that will put them in the bonus.

I will happily entertain other suggestions, of course.
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Postby hulmey on Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:06 pm

i understand that historically speaking the airfileds were in the Allies Sector but the gameplay is hugely in the favour of the Allies. If you have a positioning in the Russian sector then you are at huge disadvantage.

Plus if you hold the french quarter and move out to hold the soldiers then you have a bonus of 12 with 4 borders. This is hugely biased in favour of a small part of the map. And is going to result in very disappointing gameplay!!!

I like the idea and were you are going with it but the gameplay and bonus is very bad
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Postby oaktown on Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:14 pm

hulmey wrote:Plus if you hold the french quarter and move out to hold the soldiers then you have a bonus of 12 with 4 borders. This is hugely biased in favour of a small part of the map.


:shock: that's no good... tell me how you get that hulmey. The way i see it, French bonus + 1 airfield + all 6 checkpoints = a bonus of six (1+1+2+2) for holding ten territories with five borders. That's almost identical to holding Asia in the classic map, for which you receive a bonus of seven.

This morning I moved the northernmost border crossing to go from Wedding to Pankow instead of Prenzlauer Berg, but I haven't posted it. That would make both Pankow and Mitte a border in the above scenario, bring it to a bonus of six for holding ten territories with six borders.

I'll continue to tweak the game play... I appreciate any and all feedback.
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Postby Hatchman on Sun Sep 09, 2007 4:38 pm

This map is a great idea IMO.
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Postby oaktown on Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:56 am

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Alright, I finally got around to following up on Widowmakers' suggestions. Changes to this version:
• moved wall northernmost border crossing into Pankow rather than Prenz
• lost the grey, embraced a warmer sepia tone
• "grunged" it up... too much?

Still to do:
• add grunge masks to some layers I noticed I forgot (like the striped background... oops)
• come up with an alternative to the arrows, which look especially out of place now that they don't have the same scratches as everything else
• draw an appropriate wall

Still looking for feedback on game play. Anyone?
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Postby Incandenza on Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:13 am

It's looking better. Love the grunge.

A few questions/comments:
1. do the airfields connect?
2. as far as the airfield bonuses, you might want to decrease it to +1 for 2 and +2 for all three, unless they're going to start neutral... Call it personal preference, but I'm not a fan of people definitely getting a bonus off the drop.
3. I think you might be able to do a better background than the diagonal lines... it would be nice if the extra territory could somehow look like a map of the adjoining suburbs without looking like said suburbs are part of the playing area
4. this is a small graphic thing, but you might want to start thinking about futzing with mitte in anticipation of having to place an army there
5. the russian sector seems a bit desolate. Since we're presuming some sort of non-nuclear conflict in the city of berlin, why not have an artillery piece or two in the russian sector that can bombard the airfields? Maybe even give them a bit of a bonus? With the majority-country bonus system you have going, using said artillery won't necessarily be able to break bonuses, but they might come in useful.
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