Rail Europe [Quenched]

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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby ManBungalow on Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:16 pm

What's the proposed gameplay change?
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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:19 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:I, like Lewis Morris of New York in the 1776 musical, abstain (courteously).
--Andy

Aw common Andy, you can do better than that now the pressure is off ;)

ManBungalow wrote:What's the proposed gameplay change?

Some want the bonuses re-examined...
some want Line M bonus reduced
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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:10 pm

I agree with N and M both being looked at. We might collectively decide that they are OK as they are, but the discussion should be opened up. With trench warfare especially, an N bonus is nearly impossible to break.
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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby chapcrap on Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:01 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:I agree with N and M both being looked at. We might collectively decide that they are OK as they are, but the discussion should be opened up. With trench warfare especially, an N bonus is nearly impossible to break.

Don't be such a pansy Doom. If you trained your troops harder, you could break it every time. I win battles with just 1 troop left and have him cover two terts at once.
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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:59 pm

I have run the bonus calculator again on this and the results are

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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby chapcrap on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:14 pm

The evidence is in!!
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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:27 pm

chapcrap wrote:The evidence is in!!

Doesn't mean it is going to be accepted. :cry:
I have previously stated that there has to be a far greater majority in favour of this change and i ma not seeing evidence of that so far.
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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:42 pm

cairnswk wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:I, like Lewis Morris of New York in the 1776 musical, abstain (courteously).
--Andy

Aw common Andy, you can do better than that now the pressure is off ;)

Unfortunately I've played this map...exactly one time, and I don't even remember playing that game really. Ha.


--Andy
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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:47 pm

The calculator itself says that the bonuses are too high...

Also, I just played a 1v1 where it would have taken me 4 turns from starting positions to even attack the N bonus. Going through 6 neutrals along the one path no less.
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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby Gilligan on Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:24 pm

Wow there are many bonuses off...
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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby JBlombier on Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:39 pm

This isn't evidence. Perhaps I've not looked at it well enough, but the number of territories of some bonuses seem way off. F and P have 2 territories? There are more mistakes, but I'm not gonna bother.

This is no evidence whatsoever.
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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:46 pm

JBlombier wrote:This isn't evidence. Perhaps I've not looked at it well enough, but the number of territories of some bonuses seem way off. F and P have 2 territories? There are more mistakes, but I'm not gonna bother.
This is no evidence whatsoever.

Do you have evidence to offer then ? Yes i have made some mistakes and will correct them shortly.
Last edited by cairnswk on Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: V 9 Update.

Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:48 pm

These posts are from page 7 where the bonsues were discussed.

cairnswk wrote:
edbeard wrote:I liked the solid black you had on version 7. Maybe you just added a glow to version 8, but personally I don't like the look.


edbeard....i removed the white border on the text...but added a 1 px glow at 35% tranparency so that it isn't so obvious....with the new rail lines running through the stations now, the solid black text simply is far too dark and illegible.

V9 is below.

Changes.


* RIB colour changed
* TGV now coloured orange
* TRI now coloured pale green
* Paris colours re-arranged
* LON, HAM & PAR stations all border each other
* Liverpool on the UK now instead of Birmingham
* New bonuses

For onbekende

Here is the breakdown of how I calculated the bonuses

BNX: Bonus 4
4 terr: PAR-BRU-AMS-HAM
2 def: PAR + HAM
9 att: 7 PAR + 2 HAM
9 neigh: 7 PAR + 2 HAM

BLX: Bonus 3
4 terr: MOW-SPG-HSL
2 def: SPG + HSL
2 att: HSL + SPG
2 niegh: HSL + SPG

NRX: Bonus 5
6 terr: PAR-BRU-KLN-BER-KLG-SPG
5 def: PAR + BRU + KLG +BER + SPG
11 att: 7 PAR + 1 BRU +1 FRT->KLN + 1 BER + 1 SPG
9 neigh: 7 PAR + 1 BER + 1 SPG

VLX: Bonus 3
3 terr: WAW-VIL-SPG
1 def: WAW
1 att: WAW
1 neigh: WAW

BRL: Bonus 4
4 terr: LON-EDB-BMH-GLW
1 def: LON
2 att: LON
2 neigh: LON SOX + LON ICE

TRI: Bonus 5
5 terr: NCE-FLN-ROM-CBA-BSI
3 def: NCE + FLN + ROM
3 att: NCE + VEN + ROM
2 neigh: NCE + VEN

ORX: Bonus 7
7 terr: PAR-LUS-VEN-ZGB-BGD-SOF-ISL
5 def: PAR + LUS + VEN + SOF + ISL
13 att: 7 PAR + LUS + FLN + VIE + ATH + BUC + ISL
9 neigh: 7 PAR + BUC + FLN

SOX: Bonus 9
9 terr: LON-PAR-LUS-VIE-BUD-BGD-ATH-SOF-ISL
7 def: LON + PAR + LUS + VIE + SOF + ISL + ATH
14 att: 2 LON + 7 PAR + LUS + VIE + SOF + ISL + ATH
9 neigh: 7 PAR + LON + BUC

VSX: Bonus 6
5 terr: PAR-LUS-VEN-FLN-ROM
5 def : PAR + LUS + VEN + FLN + ROM
13 att: 7 PAR + LUS + VIE + ZGB + NCE + ROM + BSI
8 niegh: 7 PAR + TRI

TGV: Bonus 5
4 terr: PAR-NCE-MRS-IRN
4 def: PAR+NCE+MRS+IRN
10 ATT: 7 PAR + NCE + MRS + IRN
9 neigh: 7PAR + RIB + TRI

RIB: Bonus 3
7 terr: MRS-PTB-IRN-BCA-MDD-LIS-CDZ
2 def: MRS + IRN
2 att: MRS + IRN
1 neigh: TGV

ECX: Bonus 6
7 terr: HAM-BER-PRG-BUD-BUC-SOF-ATH
5 def: HAM + BER + BUD + SOF + ATH
6 att: 2 HAM + BER + BUD + SOF + ATH
6 neigh: 2 HAM + BER + BUD + BUC + ISL

SCR: Bonus 3
7 terr: HSL-STK-MLO-CPN-HAM-OSO-THM
2 def: HAM + HSL
3 att: 2 HAM + HSL
3 neigh: 2 HAM + HSL

TEE: Bonus 7
7 terr: PAR-BRU-KLN-PRG-WAW-MIN-MOW
5 def: PAR + BRU + KLN + WAW + MOW
11 att: 7 PAR + BRU + FRT + WAW + MOW
9 neigh: 7 PAR + MOW + WAW

URK: Bonus 6
6 terr: WAW-LVV-BUD-ODS-KEV-MOW
2 def: BUD + MOW
2 att: BUS + WOW
2 neigh: BUD + MOW

ICE: Bonus 6
6 terr: LON-PAR-KLN-FRT-MUN-LUS
4 def: LON + PAR + KLN + LUS
12 att: 2 LON + 7 APR + LUS + BER + BRU
8 neigh: 7 PAR + LON

PAR: Bonus 9
8 Terr
8 def
11 att: 2 LON + 3 BRU + FRT + 4 LUS
? neigh.

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Re:

Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:49 pm

onbekende wrote:BNX: I got Bonus of 3, I find this better for a 4 terr thou 3 terr needing defence continent

BLX: (you noted 4 terr but gave the correct 3, just saying) The bonus for such a continent is nicely, thou I will give you my concerns later on

NRX: We can discuss the bonus either it be 5 or 6, I say 6 even as you only need to defend 5 terr, but who is going to take this in the start? if someone has this he has the game probably!

VLX: (my calc gives bonus of 1, but thats absurd offcourse) See this continent as Oceania, giving it 3 is laughable (really)

BRL: A bonus of 4 is too much once again, this is again an Oceania waiting for a bonus of 2!

TRI: A bonus of 5 is over it, needs to defend 3 spots, and a bonus of 3 is better (note this will be ranted over too later on)

ORX: A bonus of 7 for 5 terr to defend is harsh, again this is a NRX too, so it can be high, I will settle for a 6 or nag with a 7.

SOX: Bonus of 9 for 7 def terr, again a NRX/ORX line, not holdable in early games, althou here I won't argue over the bonus of 9

VSX: (You forgot VIE having a VSX line running to it) A bonus of 6 is fine, althou this is a half NRX/ORX line, but fine

TGV: Bonus of 5 is indeed nice for such a layout, but not for its placing, rant follows at bottom

RIB: Bonus of 3 is nice, however rant at bottom is read!!

ECX: Bonus of 6? ALL FOR IT

SCR: Bonus of 3 is also my calculated bonus, but we have to look at the map, hence rant

TEE: Bonus of 7, I have Bonus of 6, terr to defend is 5 so I say the golden center and 6, althou this is again a NRX/ORx liney

URK: Bonus of 6 for a 2 def line at the edge of map? please don't, I say 3 at best, 4 if you nag

ICE: Bonus of 6, I have 5, terr to def is 4, it seems nice enough, I don't mind the 6




now the rants:
1) Oceanie's:
BRL and VLX are Oceanie's, thus a Bonus of 2!

2) South-West: Holding TGV's Paris station and TGV's paris station, you have those 2 continents in pocket, with even a nice expantion with moving all your army's from NCE-TGV and ramp over TRI to land at FLN-TRI station, thus having to defend 2 territories to have 3 continents, I know what to do ingame :D
thus please, each of those a Bonus of 2 (with TRI going for 3 if needed) is all it needs down there

3) North-East: Get HAM-SCR and SPG-BLX and you have a 2 continent, 2 def terr bonus, max of 4 shall be nice no?

4) The Great Strat: get South-West and North-East and if your lucky also the Oceanie's, what to do then? set army's on WAW-URK and BUD-URK and your in, you practivally win the game
7 terr to defend, you have 8 continents!!! and there bonuses + exellent staging area's to annoy anyone going for the Orient lines, I say this partially as a rant, partially that if we play together, you know what I am doing :D




(PS. great thing about this working in the Map Maker forums is seeing all the good strats, now only if the dices and Lady Fortune were with me)
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Re:

Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:50 pm

cairnswk wrote:
onbekende wrote:BNX: I got Bonus of 3, I find this better for a 4 terr thou 3 terr needing defence continent


i think 4 is better to counteract for 7 attacks from PAR and 2 from HAM

BLX: (you noted 4 terr but gave the correct 3, just saying) The bonus for such a continent is nicely, thou I will give you my concerns later on


Mmmm OK....the spreadsheet calcs say 3

NRX: We can discuss the bonus either it be 5 or 6, I say 6 even as you only need to defend 5 terr, but who is going to take this in the start? if someone has this he has the game probably!


Maybe then this should be 6 to encourage someone to attempt to hold at start.

VLX: (my calc gives bonus of 1, but thats absurd offcourse) See this continent as Oceania, giving it 3 is laughable (really)

Sorry, my text is wrong, the bonus should be 2 as in the map.

BRL: A bonus of 4 is too much once again, this is again an Oceania waiting for a bonus of 2!


Yes me wrong text again...should be 2.

TRI: A bonus of 5 is over it, needs to defend 3 spots, and a bonus
of 3 is better (note this will be ranted over too later on)


3 is on the map....text wrong again.

ORX: A bonus of 7 for 5 terr to defend is harsh, again this is a NRX too, so it can be high, I will settle for a 6 or nag with a 7.


Map says 7, i am happy with 7.

SOX: Bonus of 9 for 7 def terr, again a NRX/ORX line, not holdable in early games, althou here I won't argue over the bonus of 9


Good

VSX: (You forgot VIE having a VSX line running to it) A bonus of 6
is fine, althou this is a half NRX/ORX line, but fine


Good

TGV: Bonus of 5 is indeed nice for such a layout, but not for its placing, rant follows at bottom

RIB: Bonus of 3 is nice, however rant at bottom is read!!


ECX: Bonus of 6? ALL FOR IT


Good

SCR: Bonus of 3 is also my calculated bonus, but we have to look at the map, hence rant


Understand rant....but you also have to hold HAM against two attackers as well as Helsinki...therefore i still say three. i think 3 is better also because HAM can also be attacked from ECX.


TEE: Bonus of 7, I have Bonus of 6, terr to defend is 5 so I say the golden center and 6, althou this is again a NRX/ORx liney


i think 7 is better for attack from KLN and PAR.

URK: Bonus of 6 for a 2 def line at the edge of map? please don't, I say 3 at best, 4 if you nag


MMMmmmm i think only 2....as you say is at edge of map, and therefore not really strategic to centre game.

ICE: Bonus of 6, I have 5, terr to def is 4, it seems nice enough, I don't mind the 6


Good



now the rants:
1) Oceanie's:
BRL and VLX are Oceanie's, thus a Bonus of 2!


Done on map.

2) South-West: Holding TGV's Paris station and TGV's paris station, you have those 2 continents in pocket, with even a nice expantion with moving all your army's from NCE-TGV and ramp over TRI to land at FLN-TRI station, thus having to defend 2 territories to have 3 continents, I know what to do ingame :D
thus please, each of those a Bonus of 2 (with TRI going for 3 if needed) is all it needs down there


TRI already 3 on map....i compromise with 3 for TGV and 2 for RIB.

3) North-East: Get HAM-SCR and SPG-BLX and you have a 2 continent, 2 def terr bonus, max of 4 shall be nice no?

4) The Great Strat: get South-West and North-East and if your lucky also the Oceanie's, what to do then? set army's on WAW-URK and BUD-URK and your in, you practivally win the game
7 terr to defend, you have 8 continents!!! and there bonuses + exellent staging area's to annoy anyone going for the Orient lines, I say this partially as a rant, partially that if we play together, you know what I am doing :D

(PS. great thing about this working in the Map Maker forums is seeing all the good strats, now only if the dices and Lady Fortune were with me)



so this should be V10 bonuses?

BNX 4
BLX 3
NRX 6
VLX 2
BRL 2
TRI 3
ORX 7
SOX 9
VSX 6
TGV 3
RIB 2
ECX 6
SRC 3
TEE 7
URK 2
ICE 6
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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby nippersean on Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:15 pm

Cairns,

I have some evidence.

If you change one of my favourite maps, I shall kill you. So there. That is all.

What next, someone got lucky dice off a cannon in Waterloo - maybe they shouldn't bombard?? Crazee talk.

Lots of love, Nipp

I think you should certainly consider putting something up in GD for a wider input on this.
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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:30 pm

cairnswk wrote:I have run the bonus calculator again on this and the results are

Click image to enlarge.
image


These are the differences as they stand now
Image
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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:38 pm

nippersean wrote:Cairns,

I have some evidence.

If you change one of my favourite maps, I shall kill you. So there. That is all.

What next, someone got lucky dice off a cannon in Waterloo - maybe they shouldn't bombard?? Crazee talk.

Lots of love, Nipp

I think you should certainly consider putting something up in GD for a wider input on this.

Hehe, luv your humour Nipp. :lol:
I think if people really want it discuss it they can find it in here. I see no reason to create more work than necessary moving threads around.
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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:51 pm

Gilligan wrote:Wow there are many bonuses off...

Not that far off Gill once i re-calcaluted the table...meh...mistakes i make :evil:
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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby agentcom on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:01 pm

benga wrote:
nikola_milicki wrote:can somebody plz explain why is M bonus +3? bcuz it has 2 borders and N and A have only 1? kinda makes P +2 with twice as many lands and also 2 borders ridiculous?



LOL was just thinking the same thing, B bonus can be broken much easier and it's also +3


Does every bonus have to be equal in this manner? I'm not saying this is the case here, but I would think that there are times when the map maker wants people to concentrate a lot on one area over another.
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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:06 pm

agentcom wrote:
benga wrote:
nikola_milicki wrote:can somebody plz explain why is M bonus +3? bcuz it has 2 borders and N and A have only 1? kinda makes P +2 with twice as many lands and also 2 borders ridiculous?



LOL was just thinking the same thing, B bonus can be broken much easier and it's also +3


Does every bonus have to be equal in this manner? I'm not saying this is the case here, but I would think that there are times when the map maker wants people to concentrate a lot on one area over another.


Well, ideally the map should be as balanced as possible.
It is not just the mapmaker who wants...
but it is the people who have gameplay input as the time the map is developed that want also...
and there are those who bother to provide feedback when the map is BETAd who want also...
I find it a little strange that when the map was quenched on 16 Apr 2008, a month after 1 person commented about these bonuses, then 2 yrs later, another, and then now...
my goodness go figure :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:27 pm

cairnswk wrote:I find it a little strange that when the map was quenched on 16 Apr 2008, a month after 1 person commented about these bonuses, then 2 yrs later, another, and then now...
my goodness go figure :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


And this alone should tell you to leave it alone. A vocal minority will always sound louder than a silent majority. But the silence is deafening about these bonuses.
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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby benga on Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:45 am

koontz1973 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:I find it a little strange that when the map was quenched on 16 Apr 2008, a month after 1 person commented about these bonuses, then 2 yrs later, another, and then now...
my goodness go figure :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


And this alone should tell you to leave it alone. A vocal minority will always sound louder than a silent majority. But the silence is deafening about these bonuses.


Or maybe it wasn't played enough cause it's unbalanced map?

And sorry I wasn't here in 2008 and I don't always see everything on first glance.

It doesn't mean it needs to be fixed, but like this is not balanced.
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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:36 am

Over 9000 games is not a lot. :P It may not have the balance that the current maps have but so what. Not every map needs to be balanced. If this map needed more work, more people would of posted in the thread over the years asking for it, not just the recent weeks.

Classic is not balanced but I do not see post after post in that thread demanding a change. And that one has had 2699315 games finished on it. :lol:
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Re: Rail Europe [Quenched]

Postby benga on Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:52 am

koontz1973 wrote:Over 9000 games is not a lot. :P It may not have the balance that the current maps have but so what. Not every map needs to be balanced. If this map needed more work, more people would of posted in the thread over the years asking for it, not just the recent weeks.

Classic is not balanced but I do not see post after post in that thread demanding a change. And that one has had 2699315 games finished on it. :lol:


Yes, but you are only backing up my argument, SA and AUS are equally valued,
whereas M and N are not and M and B are, if you look at the structure of bonuses
and the possiblity of holding/breaking them you will see the difference.

Protecting a map and map maker is nice,
but there are no real argumnets here not to make the change.
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