Charleston, SC [Quenched]

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Re: Charleston, SC (Best 60 territ map on CC... pg.4)

Postby TaCktiX on Wed May 21, 2008 3:56 pm

You missed Harbor View again and there's an L missing in CentervilLe, but I digress. ;) The good news is we're no longer contemplating navels.

I'd say my major gripe with the map's gameplay right now is how many one-off +1 territories there are. Wild Dunes, Gray Bay, Drum Island, Goat Island, Long Island, and West Morris are just out there hanging, serving no other purpose but to make the continent more powerful. I got the same gripe on The Citadel, and I'm fixing it by adding a few more inter-continent attack routes. I would suggest doing these:

- Goat Island to Westchester (use artistic license and squish Westchester a little bit so the route will show up nicely)
- Long Island to Sol Legare Island (you can take the route off the tip of Long Island and back down to Sol Legare to make it obvious)
- Wild Dunes to Gray Bay
- West Morris to Long Island
- Drum Island to Daniel Island (poor Daniel Island, out there stuck between two continents not its own)

Looking at the bonuses, all of them are good, and should remain so when you add the connections I noted. Daniel Island DOES need to attach to its own continent, as not doing so is not straightforward gameplay (I'm reminded of Greater China, with its impassable-split continents...weird gameplay). One point you might consider is making East Ashley a +4 bonus instead of a +3 (West Ashley defends 2 territories, holds 5, East Ashley defends 3 territories, holds 5). That's up for debate though.

Graphics-side, Mt. Pleasant the bonus text washes out to sea. The new texture is beautifully subtle, and the bevel is just-right. I would consider some other small-scale fonts, as the map can be hard to read at points, and this is the large map we're talking about. Some of it could be rectified by having a slightly darker/lighter color contrast (say, in North Charleston, West Ashley).
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Re: Charleston, SC (WaterRoutes & Trees - pg.3)

Postby RjBeals on Wed May 21, 2008 3:57 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image


RjBeals wrote:
Previous Version:
http://www.rjbeals.com/charleston/Charleston_Rev4.jpg


I need a break.

  • Took out bridges & made these connectors.
  • Took out trees
  • Changed some colors
  • Changed some borders & territ names
  • Added mini-map legend & region name bonus. I'm happy with these bonus amounts, but let me know if you feel different.
  • Added slight land & sea textures
  • Took out circles where water routes connected. It added junk to the map that wasn't needed.
  • Fixed type-o's
  • Probably other stuff I can't think of now

As I said before, I'm not going for the awesome graphics on this map. I'm going for simple yet really fun straightforward gameplay. I want territs & names & borders & bonuses to be clear. I want many bonus regions, and all players to quickly be able to secure a bonus region. I don't need impassible borders. I don't want trees or shrubs or anything that will distract from the basic gameboard.

Currently, the only thing I'm thinking of doing is moving the mini-map up, then moving the name bonus lines under it, maybe 2 columns or something. I've got some unused space above the Title that I could utilize.

I read back through the posts, and I changed everything I could. Tac I know you're going to say something about the bridges, as you've mentioned the East Ashley bridge before, but I had to improvise bridge placement based on game-play.


Quoted to Bring to Page 5
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Re: Charleston, SC (Best 60 territ map on CC... pg.4)

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed May 21, 2008 4:31 pm

I like the simpler graphics of this map actually, they are unique and refreshing.

Currently, the only thing I'm thinking of doing is moving the mini-map up, then moving the name bonus lines under it, maybe 2 columns or something. I've got some unused space above the Title that I could utilize.

I was going to suggest something similar, but I see that you are already thinking toward it!

A few of the territorial division lines seem fuzzy, when compared to others. Those in Folly Beach south look different from those in the Folly Beach north. There are a few other examples also

Regarding game play, I'd like to see at least one of the bonus 3's changed to an additional bonus 2. Perhaps S. St. James Island. (Or Folly Beach, but Folly Beach looks like it's worth a 3 due to it being a great connector to far reaches around the map).


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Re: Charleston, SC (Best 60 territ map on CC... pg.4)

Postby Optimus Prime on Wed May 21, 2008 4:53 pm

I like the idea of no trees or impassable borders as well. I like the idea of it being open and easy to get places.

My only question is about Daniel Island. Is there a particular reason it is not directly connected to any of the rest of the continent it is a part of? That is going to make getting that particular continent bonus a bit difficult.
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Re: Charleston, SC (Best 60 territ map on CC... pg.4)

Postby RjBeals on Thu May 22, 2008 11:59 am

Tac -

* The spelling will be corrected, I promise
* I will add some more connections between the stand-alone regions, but only to other territories in the same regions. I don't want more bordering territs.
* I think I'll keep the bridge up north connecting naval to Daniel is, But I'll add another bridge from State Arsenal to Daniel is also. Or... maybe change Daniel Island to Dark Yellow, and make it part of North Charleston instead. Then the bonus amounts may change
* I'll look at clearing up some of the washed up legend font, but I'm keeping the map territory fonts. The small maps will most likely have different fonts.


Andy -

* Not sure what territ lines are fuzzy? I don't see them on my monitor.
* You want another bonus 2 - why? I'm totally stumped on where. I could always split the green st. johns island up again into a north & south, but then I think there would be too many small bonuses.


Prime -

* Daniel Island will be addressed. Maybe turn it dark yellow, or maybe connect it to it's bonus region.
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Re: Charleston, SC (Best 60 territ map on CC... pg.4)

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu May 22, 2008 5:48 pm

S. St. James is a duplicate of East Cooper, no? They both have 4 territories, and 2 borders. East Cooper touches 3 enemy territories, and S. St. James touches 4, essentially the same. Unless I'm missing something (which is very likely always :)) I would think S. St. James would be a bonus of 2 rather than 3.


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Re: Charleston, SC (Best 60 territ map on CC... pg.4)

Postby edbeard on Thu May 22, 2008 5:51 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:S. St. James is a duplicate of East Cooper, no? They both have 4 territories, and 2 borders. East Cooper touches 3 enemy territories, and S. St. James touches 4, essentially the same. Unless I'm missing something (which is very likely always :)) I would think S. St. James would be a bonus of 2 rather than 3.


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well it also touches three continents to East Cooper's two so the argument for +3 could be a valid one
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Re: Charleston, SC (Best 60 territ map on CC... pg.4)

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu May 22, 2008 5:54 pm

Perhaps, but I think it's an over valued 3. I'd much rather it a 2!


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Re: Charleston, SC (Best 60 territ map on CC... pg.4)

Postby RjBeals on Fri May 23, 2008 12:51 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image


okay Andy - I agree. It wouldn't hurt to have the south st. james as a +2 also. Done.

Here's the latest.

* Spelling errors fixed.
* Water-routes changed just a bit
* Bridge style changed just a bit
* Legend changed.

Dunno - I've been tweaking things for days now.

oh yeah, combined some of the islands so they are not hanging alone (like Tac suggested).
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Re: Charleston, SC (New Legend, Pg-5)

Postby ZeakCytho on Fri May 23, 2008 1:01 pm

I think St. Johns island should be split into two continents, like you had in the other versions. I'm still not crazy about the bridges, but they're better than before. Maybe consider putting an attack line or bridge beween West Morris and Parrot Point or Goat Island to eliminate the dead end?

Other than that, I really like this new update.
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Re: Charleston, SC (New Legend, Pg-5)

Postby RjBeals on Fri May 23, 2008 1:12 pm

ZeakCytho wrote:I think St. Johns island should be split into two continents, like you had in the other versions. I'm still not crazy about the bridges, but they're better than before. Maybe consider putting an attack line or bridge beween West Morris and Parrot Point or Goat Island to eliminate the dead end?

Other than that, I really like this new update.


Thanks Zeak. I think bridges are harder than mountains.

Dead Ends are okay - but I'll maybe put an attack route between West Morris and Long Island - they are the same bonus regions.
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Re: Charleston, SC (New Legend, Pg-5)

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri May 23, 2008 1:17 pm

I like the look of everything now. :) St. John's Island should stay as a bonus 5 continent...why add more unnecessary 3's and 2's? Variety is good. :)


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Re: Charleston, SC (New Legend, Pg-5)

Postby RjBeals on Fri May 23, 2008 1:19 pm

thanks andy - so is this beyond an idea now?
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Re: Charleston, SC (New Legend, Pg-5)

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri May 23, 2008 1:32 pm

You'd have to ask gimil or oaktown about that. :D


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Re: Charleston, SC (New Legend, Pg-5)

Postby pepperonibread on Fri May 23, 2008 1:57 pm

The bridges from Naval Complex to Daniel Island and Daniel Island to East Cooper are different from the rest, is this on purpose?
Also, does Charleston have a motto? This is from Wikipedia: Aedes Mores Juraque Curat (She cares for her temples, customs, and rights).
I dunno how much I like it, but maybe it could work.
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Re: Charleston, SC (New Legend, Pg-5)

Postby RjBeals on Fri May 23, 2008 4:53 pm

hmmm... I'm getting a bad feeling about all this.
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Re: Charleston, SC (New Legend, Pg-5)

Postby TaCktiX on Fri May 23, 2008 6:00 pm

The map isn't going to show support from several Foundry people because they're not interested in a big map with purely classic gameplay. I personally love that kind of map, and the majority of CC does too. We need to keep in mind that sometimes the Foundry isn't "representative" of the greater site, and map types is where it comes into sharp and obvious relief. I vote for continuing this map, and keep the simple, clean look of it. It's not the graphics of Iceland, but really Charleston doesn't need those kinds of graphics. The city speaks for itself, and though it may look like Puget Sound, it'll play better than Puget Sound.
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Re: Charleston, SC (New Legend, Pg-5)

Postby edbeard on Fri May 23, 2008 6:37 pm

huh? What's going on here?

everything is fine and it's developing well. What's the big deal?


Anyway, the development of the legend is coming on quite nicely. I like the straightforward title, but I think I preferred version 4. I'm not sure it quite fit in as well, but maybe go back to that and try to edit it to fit in more with the map. Rather than scratching it for this new one.


Bonus-wise I think more discussion needs to take place.

West Ashley is not worth the same as East Ashley. If S. St. James is only worth 2 then Ashely is probably 2 as well. Furthermore, is Folly Beach really worth 3?

Lets look at some things.

WA - 2 border, 2 attacking, 2 continents
SSJ - 2 border, 4 attacking, 3 continents
FB - 2 border, 4 attacking, 4 continents
EC - 2 border, 3 attacking, 2 continents

I'd say WA and EC are 2 and SSJ and FB are 3.

f*ck it. Lets put together the whole list. Obviously strength of neighbors and size of continents should be considered but these are just starting points.


WA - 2 border, 2 attacking, 2 continents
EA - 3 border, 4 attacking 2 continents
SJI - 3 border, 3 attacking, 3 continents
NSJ - 4 border, 4 attacking, 4 continents
SSJ - 2 border, 4 attacking, 3 continents
FB - 2 border, 4 attacking, 4 continents
NC - 2 border, 2 attacking, 2 continents
HD - 3 border, 6 attacking, 6 continents
MP - 4 border, 4 attacking, 4 continents
EC - 2 border, 3 attacking, 2 continents
IP - 2 border, 3 attacking, 3 continents


I say we ignore size except for the extreme cases. In my opinion only SJI, HD, and possibly NC should be considered 'large' getting maybe an extra bonus from their size.

Just looking at the numbers (without looking back at the map) or the size, I'd say bonuses should be...

2 - WA, NC, EC
3 - EA, SJI, SSJ, FB
4 - NSJ, MP
5 - HD

IP i'm not sure. 3 seems too much and 2 too little. Possibly a gameplay change could solidify this one.

Including the 'size' bonus I talked about we are left with...

2 - WA, EC
3- EA, NC, SSJ, FB
4 - NSJ, MP, SJI
6 - HD

That's mostly what you had I think except probably the changes I had suggested above. So maybe convince me about Isle of Palms being worth 2 or 3, or make it more evident with a gameplay change.
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Re: Charleston, SC (New Legend, Pg-5)

Postby Ruben Cassar on Fri May 23, 2008 6:46 pm

Great job RJ and don't get discouraged. There are a lot of people interested in this map...they just don't visit the foundry. It's going to be great for some solid 6 and 8 player games.

Bridges: The Naval Complex and Daniel Island bridges should have their outer edges curved liked the rest of the bridges. I would also make the Legareville bridge straight like all the rest.

Sea routes: I want the rounded dots you used in an earlier version when the sea route connected with the land.

The legend is looking good now. Keep up the good work.
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Re: Charleston, SC (New Legend, Pg-5)

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri May 23, 2008 8:39 pm

2 - WA, EC
3- EA, NC, SSJ, FB
4 - NSJ, MP, SJI
6 - HD

I can see WA being a 2 perhaps, and also SJI being a 4 maybe. HD may be a better 5, though Fort Sumter is a gem and can get a player around the map. So that could justify a 6 perhaps. SSJ...I suppose I can see your point about it being a 3 (It'd be similar to North Africa's argument for 3 on the Europe map I suppose...touching 3 continents, 4 territories) Perhaps I should flip flop from my earlier argument.

So I suppose I generally agree with edbeard's above quoted.


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Re: Charleston, SC (New Legend, Pg-5)

Postby pepperonibread on Fri May 23, 2008 8:40 pm

TaCktiX wrote:The map isn't going to show support from several Foundry people because they're not interested in a big map with purely classic gameplay. I personally love that kind of map, and the majority of CC does too. We need to keep in mind that sometimes the Foundry isn't "representative" of the greater site, and map types is where it comes into sharp and obvious relief. I vote for continuing this map, and keep the simple, clean look of it. It's not the graphics of Iceland, but really Charleston doesn't need those kinds of graphics. The city speaks for itself, and though it may look like Puget Sound, it'll play better than Puget Sound.


I don't think that's a fair thing to say. Some of us are just wondering what a map like this has that will appeal to people. It has standard graphics (didn't say bad: just nothing that makes this map catch your eye), not too much of a theme (geographical maps are fine, but this is what some might call a "niche" map, a place with not too much significance), and normal gameplay. Now, I love standard gameplay; I basically only play classic-style maps. None of these things individually make for a "bad" map, in fact most maps don't have all three of these. But when none of these aspects of the map are really very pronounced, you sometimes have to ask what gives the map appeal.
Sorry RJ, this one just isn't really working for me :( There seems to be a fair amount of support for it though, so I won't say anything else. It would just be great if you could do something to make this map stand out more, make it more unique.
But that's just me :)
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Re: Charleston, SC (New Legend, Pg-5)

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri May 23, 2008 8:51 pm

Hm, I think this map will appeal to more users on the website than a number of the maps recently released. In most of the threads I've encountered over the past couple of days, people seem to be wanting more and more classic-esque maps, and I think this one, along with a fair number of others in the Foundry, will deliver to them.

I think one of the attracting things about this map is the general openess of it...and the ability to move about the map. No huge wasteland continents...but a way to build yourself up gradually. (NC and HD are a prime example I think).

It's graphics are inherently unique, which is always a key in my book. (I.E. While I like Pamoa as a cartographer (he's got some skills!), his new France map just replicates Ireland's feel too much for my comfort.)

Bottom line...users will never get tired of classic-esque game play maps. People will always play them, and I think this one will appeal to those people surely!


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Re: Charleston, SC (New Legend, Pg-5)

Postby seamusk on Fri May 23, 2008 11:35 pm

This map definitely has appeal. How much appeal? I think it will be similar to USSR. Heck I think it is very similar to USSR in many ways, though obviously not visually. I can't wait to play it.
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Re: Charleston, SC (New Legend, Pg-5)

Postby Ruben Cassar on Sat May 24, 2008 4:02 am

pepperonibread wrote:
TaCktiX wrote:The map isn't going to show support from several Foundry people because they're not interested in a big map with purely classic gameplay. I personally love that kind of map, and the majority of CC does too. We need to keep in mind that sometimes the Foundry isn't "representative" of the greater site, and map types is where it comes into sharp and obvious relief. I vote for continuing this map, and keep the simple, clean look of it. It's not the graphics of Iceland, but really Charleston doesn't need those kinds of graphics. The city speaks for itself, and though it may look like Puget Sound, it'll play better than Puget Sound.


I don't think that's a fair thing to say. Some of us are just wondering what a map like this has that will appeal to people. It has standard graphics (didn't say bad: just nothing that makes this map catch your eye), not too much of a theme (geographical maps are fine, but this is what some might call a "niche" map, a place with not too much significance), and normal gameplay. Now, I love standard gameplay; I basically only play classic-style maps. None of these things individually make for a "bad" map, in fact most maps don't have all three of these. But when none of these aspects of the map are really very pronounced, you sometimes have to ask what gives the map appeal.
Sorry RJ, this one just isn't really working for me :( There seems to be a fair amount of support for it though, so I won't say anything else. It would just be great if you could do something to make this map stand out more, make it more unique.
But that's just me :)


These are the things I'll never understand about the foundry. If you're not interested in a map why not simply ignore the thread instead of saying I don't like it or it has no appeal.

None of the 7-8 new maps just quenched appeal to me. I will never play most of them. However I did not go into their respective threads saying these maps are disgusting, too complicated or have no appeal to me. The answer is simple...maps appeal to different people so I know someone else will appreciate them even though I don't.

Besides I know hundreds of very good CC players who never even look into the foundry but would love this map. Only around 50 people visit the foundry regularly out of the thousands of players on CC. A very very small and inaccurate sample of the whole CC community.

I think once a map maker (especially a renown one like RJ) starts making a map only people interested in the map should post in the thread. People who can give constructive comments. I hate the posts who discourage a map maker from continuing a map unless it's a total disaster.
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Re: Charleston, SC (New Legend, Pg-5)

Postby RjBeals on Sat May 24, 2008 8:57 am

Ruben Cassar wrote:[color=#000080]These are the things I'll never understand about the foundry. If you're not interested in a map why not simply ignore the thread instead of saying I don't like it or it has no appeal....However I did not go into their respective threads saying these maps are disgusting, too complicated or have no appeal to me.


Wow - some action here last night. I need to digest all this before a follow up, I just wanted to defend pepperonibread a bit, because I did ask the private map makers group aadomm for some feedback, good or bad. But.... I do need to read this page of comments, and decide on a path to take with this map.
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